Was Adam perfect before the fall ?

[BNR32FAN]

Try reading chapter one. The whole book of Romans is written to believers

To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

That’s completely irrelevant unless he was actually making references to them by using words like “you” in those statements which he doesn’t. A person can write a letter TO someone and in that letter can begin talking ABOUT someone else. Here’s a prime example from the same chapter.

“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Are both of these types of people Christians?

Are those who are not of the flesh and the Spirit of God dwells in them Christians?

Are those that do not have the Spirit of Christ that do NOT belong to Him Christians?

 

[d taylor]

BobRyan said:

He never mentions "carnal believer" in the entire chapter of Rom 8.

Another good example of a text that does not mention "carnal believer".

But to your point - "does some other text in all of scripture mention someone who is a believer and carnal?" yes... just not chapter 8.

In the book of Romans - Paul writes to believers about two groups of people in Rom 8.. the saved, and the lost.

In that Rom 8 example the lost person is described as;

1. not having the Holy Spirit
2. , not Christ's at all,
3. at war with God,
4. not able to subject themselves to the Law of God.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul states states if a believer (for if you) lives according to the flesh they will die. That is describing a carnal believer.

 

[BobRyan]

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul states states if a believer (for if you) lives according to the flesh they will die. That is describing a carnal believer.

The person that dies in their sins is lost. Paul does not call them "a carnal believer" but you do and you are free to call them whatever you wish.

In the book of Romans - Paul writes to believers about two groups of people in Rom 8.. the saved, and the lost.

In that Rom 8 example the lost person is described as;

1. not having the Holy Spirit
2. , not Christ's at all,
3. at war with God,
4. not able to subject themselves to the Law of God.

In Matt 7 Jesus describes those who claim to believe in him - yet are lost ... this way

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

But this thread is about sinless Adam in Eden before the fall of mankind. As a sinless being he was not in the group of lost people described in Matt 7 and in Rom 8 who are at war with God.

 

[d taylor]

That’s completely irrelevant unless he was actually making references to them by using words like “you” in those statements which he doesn’t. A person can write a letter TO someone and in that letter can begin talking ABOUT someone else. Here’s a prime example from the same chapter.

“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Are both of these types of people Christians?

Are those who are not of the flesh and the Spirit of God dwells in them Christians?

Are those that do not have the Spirit of Christ that do NOT belong to Him Christians?

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul states states if a believer (for if you) lives according to the flesh they will die. That is describing a carnal believer.

Paul is comparing a carnal believer to spirit lead believers.
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace

 

[d taylor]

The person that dies in their sins is lost. Paul does not call them "a carnal believer" but you do and you are free to call them whatever you wish.

-​

Look we are so far apart in our beliefs, you being a person who seeks eternal life by works and obedience. And i am a person who believes God's free gift of Eternal Life is received by faith in The Messiah. There is no need to continue in these back and forths, at least not for me.

 

[BobRyan]

-​

you being a person who seeks eternal life by works

When I claim that I seek eternal life by works - feel free to accuse me of it. Until then you need to make your case with some sort of fact.

If your idea is to complain that I quote a text that you wish were not quoted - then you should make that plain as part of your accusation above.

 

[BobRyan]

i am a person who believes God's free gift of Eternal Life is received by faith in The Messiah

As do I.

Your wish to insert your own words into the text of Rom 8 can't be blamed on me as if it is some fault of mine

 

[d taylor]

When I claim that I seek eternal life by works - feel free to accuse me of it. Until then you need to make your case with some sort of fact.

When i have time i will look up past post and quote you an example from your past post.

 

[Brother-Mike]

What value would love have without free will?

On the creaturely-level I am able to love, or not to love. I am able to believe, or not believe. I am free enough to rightly be judged by these actions. Similarly a recipient of my love can know that my love is genuine and given or withheld in accordance with my creaturely-freedom.

 

[BobRyan]

When i have time i will look up past post and quote you an example from your past post.

thanks. otherwise it looks to me like a false accusation on your part. Having some fact would be helpful

 

[Carl Emerson]

All the sinless angels were at one time sinless beings that had not encountered evil. When evil came in some fell and some did not.
That fact "alone" did not determine who would fall.


yes sickness, death, decay and "corruption" as we see in Rom 8.

Yes a new creation having a new heart and yet also still having the old man-of-sin sinful nature "sin IN me at war with the law of my mind".

Something the sinless Adam never had - was a sinful nature at war with the law of his mind

amen to that.

No text says God's calling or God's love is "irresistible".

John 12:32 God "draws all mankind to Himself" but in fact "most resist" Matt 7.

Can you expand on the first sentence and how it relates to Adam please.

Sentence 4 - many don't realise Jesus and Adam were alike in this regard.

For this reason the temptations Jesus had, in fact differed from us, in that He was never tempted by a flesh nature but like Adam was tempted directly by the deceiver.

The Spirit of God 'constrains' us and the Fear of God prevents us from mortal sin.

Many are called (drawn) and few are chosen. The chosen cannot resist His Love. The unsaved do.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Paul states states if a believer (for if you) lives according to the flesh they will die. That is describing a carnal believer.

A so called 'carnal believer' is not a biblical term. It is a contradiction.

The term believer is referencing the ecclesia collectively which includes wheat and tares.

The demons believe - likewise many in fellowship 'believe' but are not called to saving Grace.

The Elect cannot live according to the flesh as the Holy Spirit within them constrains them.

 

[BobRyan]

OK a few matters in response...

I don't think Adam fell because he was imperfect but because he was human and hadn't encountered evil...

All the sinless angels were at one time sinless beings that had not encountered evil. When evil came in some fell and some did not.
That fact "alone" did not determine who would fall.

Can you expand on the first sentence and how it relates to Adam please.

The fact that one is sinless and has never encountered evil before - does not determine that they will of course sin when they encounter evil. My example of how that plays out - is that some sinless angels fell when they encountered evil and some did not. Adam could choose to fall or not to fall just as Angels had that same choice.

 

[BobRyan]

A so called 'carnal believer' is not a biblical term. It is a contradiction.

The term believer is referencing the ecclesia collectively which includes wheat and tares.

The demons believe - likewise many in fellowship 'believe' but are not called to saving Grace.

The Elect cannot live according to the flesh as the Holy Spirit within them constrains them.

Devils are never called "believers" even though as James says "the devils believe and tremble".

Paul sometimes refers to so-called brothers

• 1 Corinthians 5:11
  But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is a sexually immoral person, or a greedy person, or an idolater, or is verbally abusive, or habitually drunk, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a person.
  
• 1 Corinthians 8:5
  For even if there are so-calledgods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
  
• Ephesians 2:11
  Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which isperformed in the flesh by human hands—
  
• 2 Thessalonians 2:4
  who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Not true brother, once we come to Christ the stain of our sins have been cleansed and our works are pleasing in His sight.

"Apart from Me, you can do nothing". That means what it says. The works that originate from self are nothing in God's sight. Read 1 Corinthians 3:12 also. Much that many Christians boast about will be judged as worthless because it was initiated by them and not by God.

 

[d taylor]

A so called 'carnal believer' is not a biblical term. It is a contradiction.

The term believer is referencing the ecclesia collectively which includes wheat and tares.

The demons believe - likewise many in fellowship 'believe' but are not called to saving Grace.

The Elect cannot live according to the flesh as the Holy Spirit within them constrains them.

Instead of filling up a post reply with a long written out reply i will direct you to a few articles which address this.

Carnality, Spirituality, and Fellowship with God – 1 Corinthians 3:1–3 – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

Perpetually Carnal, Yet Eternally Secure? – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

 

[d taylor]

A so called 'carnal believer' is not a biblical term. It is a contradiction.

The term believer is referencing the ecclesia collectively which includes wheat and tares.

The demons believe - likewise many in fellowship 'believe' but are not called to saving Grace.

The Elect cannot live according to the flesh as the Holy Spirit within them constrains them.

Paul states this in Romans 8.

Those who are in the flesh are unbelievers example But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit

Now hear is Paul speaking of a believer one who is living according to the flesh
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

It is simple, in the flesh = unbeliever - live according to the flesh = a carnal believer

 

[BobRyan]

How are these recent discussion posts in any way related to sinless Adam before the fall?

 

[BobRyan]

It is simple, in the flesh = unbeliever - live according to the flesh = a carnal believer

How is an unbeliever a "carnal believer"?
How is this related to the topic of the thread?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Instead of filling up a post reply with a long written out reply i will direct you to a few articles which address this.

Carnality, Spirituality, and Fellowship with God – 1 Corinthians 3:1–3 – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

Perpetually Carnal, Yet Eternally Secure? – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

I guess the term Carnal believer which doesn't occur in scripture suggests the Elect can be carnal - this is what I object to. Carnal means being animal - particularly sexually - an offensive term.

I have no problem with suggesting unbelievers can be 'carnal' but the Elect - no.