Warren Jeffs vs Joseph Smith

[newyorksaint]

I suggest you read the book and draw your own conclusions. LDS members are quick to discredit him and his sources without even seeing the book let alone reading it and looking at the referance section at the end of the book, it is very extensive drawing from alot of sources too many in fact to just throw it all away to hersey and rumor.

I wouldn't generalize if I were you. Many of those reviews I read were from LDS members, and many of those said it was a well-done book.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

Why is mormonism even included in a Christian discussion page? Jesus is just one God among many to them.

What gives you such a negative view of the LDS faith?

 

[Wrigley]

What gives you such a negative view of the LDS faith?

In this case, what you call negative is actually the truth, I'd say what ever the sources may be, those sources are correct.

 

[Swart]

i sometimes do my research with binders on too, but heck i wouldnt say i was totally blind.

Take it up with A New Dawn. She isn't LDS and doesn't have an axe to grind. Hey! I'd be just as happy if it was shown he really did take plural wives - it's simply not a concern to me. On a preponderence of the evidence, I would have to say that I don't think he did.

 

[Swart]

So did Emma disobey D&C 132:52 ??

Looks like it.

 

[Swart]

What Joseph Smith did during the 19C mormon church WAS held in contempt by the rest of society. The entire mormon church practice of polygamy was held in contempt by our society from its' inception until today!

Again, another striking similarity between Jeffs and Smith!!!

The difference is that today what is held in contempt is the age of the plural wives. If it was merely men with lots of adult wives, no one would bat an eyelid. These days it is not the PM that people are objecting to.

In JS day, taking a 15YO wife was considered perfectly normal. Taking a 25YO second wife was what was considered scandalous.

Of course I find it hypocritical that there is such a problem amongst OCs with PM in the 19C, yet there are enourmous numbers of professing Christians that are living in sin by cohabiting with members of the opposite sex and few comments about it. This is not to mention the tolerance of homosexuality with OCy including the ordination of gay clergy in many of the larger OC churches.

 

[logichopper]

The difference is that today what is held in contempt is the age of the plural wives. If it was merely men with lots of adult wives, no one would bat an eyelid. These days it is not the PM that people are objecting to.

Wrong. Today, as during Smith's time, polygamy is still looked at with disgust by virtually all of our society. [Well, as it seems to appear, perhaps not in some remote areas of the Outback in the land down under!]

In JS day, taking a 15YO wife was considered perfectly normal. Taking a 25YO second wife was what was considered scandalous.

Yes and Smith did both as does Jeffs. Again, another striking similarity. Your point is?

Of course I find it hypocritical that there is such a problem amongst OCs with PM in the 19C, yet there are enourmous numbers of professing Christians that are living in sin by cohabiting with members of the opposite sex and few comments about it. This is not to mention the tolerance of homosexuality with OCy including the ordination of gay clergy in many of the larger OC churches.

This comparison makes absolutely no sense at all from a couple of perspectives. One, you're comparing time periods separated by 150 -200 yrs. Second, you seem to rationalize acceptance/tolerance by attempting to find something "more worse"!! Sounds like a young student after getting caught cheating on an exam: "Well it's not as bad as Cain killing his brother Able"!

 

[christopher123]

What gives you such a negative view of the LDS faith?

As your repeated threads and postings at the mormon FAIR boards tell the world, CF is just one big hate site site against mormons, you pinhead.

Of course "salt" is going to be negative about mormons if she is here, right?

Chris <><

 

[Deraj]

Warren Jeffs and his followers "claim" that he, as the prophet of the one true church, has the keys and authority passed on by Joseph Smith. The claim made by Warren Jeffs is no "less" substantiated than that made by Hinckley.

Accordingly, this is much more of a similarity between Smith and Jeffs than it is a difference.

Well, I did say it is arguable, but I will leave this for another time, because I am sure that I will have enough to argue about by the end of this post.

Joseph Smith was actually in violation of the laws of the land as is Jeffs. Polygamy was against the law and in violation of Illinois statues while being practiced by Smith, just as it is by Jeffs. [If you were not aware of this statute in Illinois, I would be more than happy to provide you a copy of it upon request.] As the D&C's commanded the saints to "obey" the laws of the land at that time, Smith was also in violation of the mormon church laws.

[Additionally, the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants of the lds church directly and specifically prohibited the practice of polygamy as did the statements and teachings of Joseph Smith up to his death.]

You mean the Book of Commandments? Show me some evidence. Now you say that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, though he denied this a month before his death. Joseph Smith never did practice Polygamy and I have yet to see any evidence counter to this.
HC VI:411;
"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
"I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and can prove them all perjurers. I laboured with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience; and then I sent my brother Hyrum, whom they virtually kicked out of doors."

The truth is, Joseph Smith had a lot of people who hated him, and made false allegations against him, and it is hard to prove otherwise with so many of them making attacks at him. He was in trouble with the law, yet he did not break it. Neither did he promote or prohibit polygamy, unless he prohibited the practice because of the law of the land, whilst he was living, when he was in the USA. Polygamy was practiced for definite by many LDS in Utah, at a time when Utah was not a part of the USA. It had its' own laws and no law against polygamy. Polygamy was used to help sustain widows and women who had no other way of sustaining themselves. It was prohibited in the Church, when Utah became part of the USA.

Furthermore, Smith was in violation of the law in ordering the destruction of the Expositor printing press as this was both a violation of Illinois law as well as a vilation of the Nauvoo Charter. [Again, sources provided upon request as it appears you may not have been aware of this either.] Jeffs is in violation of the law in his practices as well. Jeffs is currently on the run from the law just as Smith's initial move was to flee from the law and Nauvoo before being convinced be his wife to return and face the consequences.

Yes, I have heard of this. I also heard that there was good reason for it. and that he was not fleeing from the law, but was fleeing from persecution, and it was the LDS that were driven from Nauvoo, rather than that they fleed. One US state has already apoligised for their persecutions against the LDS and driving them from their homes. Give me your sources and I will look into it further.

No, definately not a "non-answer. But I think after the specifics provided above, your answer has some flawed reasoning based on actual facts and, IMHO, the logical and reasonable application of the facts. I appreciate the direct response but I think it does more to demonstrate the striking similarities between Smith and Jeffs. I also think it is why other lds posters would rather not attempt to provide “specific differences” as I’m not sure there really are any.

Ever thought that you might have some flaws in your answer?

 

[Guyver]

The difference is that today what is held in contempt is the age of the plural wives. If it was merely men with lots of adult wives, no one would bat an eyelid. These days it is not the PM that people are objecting to.

In JS day, taking a 15YO wife was considered perfectly normal. Taking a 25YO second wife was what was considered scandalous.

Of course I find it hypocritical that there is such a problem amongst OCs with PM in the 19C, yet there are enourmous numbers of professing Christians that are living in sin by cohabiting with members of the opposite sex and few comments about it. This is not to mention the tolerance of homosexuality with OCy including the ordination of gay clergy in many of the larger OC churches.

Can you provide a source for this, I think everyone takes it for granted that it was common to marry at 15 back then but I have not seen any evidence to support it. I have read somewhere that the common age of marriage for women back then was between the ages of 18-25 but I have not been able to find that source I am still lokking though. All I have found so far was this site

http://www.theallengroup.com/members/Fr_novick.html

but it is lacking. I will continue to look.

 

[Deraj]

Can you provide a source for this, I think everyone takes it for granted that it was common to marry at 15 back then but I have not seen any evidence to support it. I have read somewhere that the common age of marriage for women back then was between the ages of 18-25 but I have not been able to find that source I am still lokking though. All I have found so far was this site

http://www.theallengroup.com/members/Fr_novick.html

but it is lacking. I will continue to look.

It was in Britain. It was only once compulsory education came in that the legal age for marriage here was raised from 12 to 16.

 

[baker]

You mean the Book of Commandments? Show me some evidence. Now you say that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, though he denied this a month before his death. Joseph Smith never did practice Polygamy and I have yet to see any evidence counter to this.
HC VI:411;
"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
"I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and can prove them all perjurers. I laboured with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience; and then I sent my brother Hyrum, whom they virtually kicked out of doors."

Deraj,

Not to speak for Logichopper here, but Smith's statement above, denying his practice of polygamy, was an outright LIE. At the time, he was merely attempting to save his own butt. All you need to do is check the official lds church website at lds.org to verify his polygamous marriages. See here:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp

Just enter "Joseph Smith", and "Emma Hale" and click on the joseph smith name then provided to see a listing of all his wives. If someone within the lds church has convinced you that he did not practice polygamy, I would suggest you have been seriously "duped".

Yes, I have heard of this. I also heard that there was good reason for it.

There was absolutely "NO" good reason for destroying the Nauvoo Prinitng Press. Even the governor of Illinois, Thomas Ford (an attorney himself) had said that Smith was wrong in its destruction (as has Dallin Oaks, current lds apostle and attorney).

Polygamy was practiced for definite by many LDS in Utah, at a time when Utah was not a part of the USA. It had its' own laws and no law against polygamy. Polygamy was used to help sustain widows and women who had no other way of sustaining themselves. It was prohibited in the Church, when Utah became part of the USA.

Again, simply wrong again. Smith and others practiced polygamy in Illinois where it was, by statute, against the law. Go to the church website above and see for yourself that Smith was married to over 20 women. Then check out this photocopy of the 1833 Illinos statute prohibiting polygamy:

http://www.utlm.org/images/newsletters/no97illinoisbigamylaw.gif



Perhaps you need to spend a little more time investigating the truth and facts of the lds church history!

 

[buddy mack]

Deraj,

Not to speak for Logichopper here, but Smith's statement above, denying his practice of polygamy, was an outright LIE. At the time, here was merely attempting to save his owm butt. All you need to do is check the official lds church website at lds.org to verify his polygamous marriages. See here:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp

Just enter "Joseph Smith", and "Emma Hale" and click on the joseph smith name then provided to see a listing of all his wives. If someone within the lds church has convinced you that he did not practice polygamy, I would suggest you have been seriously "duped".




There was absolutely "NO" good reason for destroying the Nauvoo Prinitng Press. Even the governor of Illinois, Thomas Ford (an attorney himself) had said that Smith was wrong in its destruction (as has Dallin Oaks, current lds apostle and attorney).



Again, simply wrong again. Smith and others practiced polygamy in Illinois where it was, by statute, against the law. Go to the church website above and see for yourself that Smith was married to over 20 women. Then check out this photocopy of the 1833 Illinos statute prohibiting polygamy:

http://www.utlm.org/images/newsletters/no97illinoisbigamylaw.gif



Perhaps you need to spend a little more time investigating the truth and facts of the lds church history!

the investigating and research is done through a filter of the Church, with all none-faith-promoting material explained away. my favorite explaination given by CHQ is "Oh, that, well, it was only The Prophets opinion and not doctrine, or revelations."

 

[Deraj]

Deraj,

Not to speak for Logichopper here, but Smith's statement above, denying his practice of polygamy, was an outright LIE. At the time, he was merely attempting to save his own butt. All you need to do is check the official lds church website at lds.org to verify his polygamous marriages. See here:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp

Just enter "Joseph Smith", and "Emma Hale" and click on the joseph smith name then provided to see a listing of all his wives. If someone within the lds church has convinced you that he did not practice polygamy, I would suggest you have been seriously "duped".

I was never duped. It was my own finding. I will just have to revise my arguments.
To see whether, these alleged wives of Joseph Smith are as they are on the familysearch website, I would have to look through all the microfilms that are given reference to in the submitters details section.

 

[Deraj]

Perhaps you need to spend a little more time investigating the truth and facts of the lds church history!

Maybe, but familysearch.org is not a primary source, and to find whether any of the allegations you make are true, I would have to look through a load of microfilms that are referenced to in the submitter's details section. Alot of those who submitted details for Joseph Smith have not given any reference to microfilms.

 

[baker]

I was never duped. It was my own finding. I will just have to revise my arguments.
New argument: Familysearch has many errors, even with the records on Joseph Smith's alleged wives, who have more than one husband with the same name, but spelt wrong and married at different dates. These facts are not submitted by the Church and you don't have to leave your details on who submitted them, so it seems that it is perfectly plausible that someone submitted this information, to show what you are trying to show. That si that it is perfectly plausible thus far.

Deraj,

It seems you are really struggling to avoid the truth and facts.

Do you think it is reasonable to conclude that the lds church would allow people to enter data and information on their own website, about its founding prophet, if it had no basis of truth? And do you really think it would let people do this for over 20 women? (Are we trying to create a new defintion of "gullible" here????)

Tell you what, try and get some other women listed as Smith's wives on that site and see how far you get?!?!

As opposed to "revising your arguments" I really think its time to face facts and "revise your conclusions"! The lds church does not deny the fact that Smith had many wives. It seems only you and Smith have!!!!!!

 

[Deraj]

Maybe, but familysearch.org is not a primary source, and to find whether any of the allegations you make are true, I would have to look through a load of microfilms that are referenced to in the submitter's details section. Alot of those who submitted details for Joseph Smith have not given any reference to microfilms.

In fact, only 16 out of nearly 200 submissions make reference to microfilms. I wouldn't be surprised if many of these alleged wives were not backed up by primary source evidence.

 

[buddy mack]

Maybe, but familysearch.org is not a primary source, and to find whether any of the allegations you make are true, I would have to look through a load of microfilms that are referenced to in the submitter's details section. Alot of those who submitted details for Joseph Smith have not given any reference to microfilms.

If you want to say with only those who are or were LDS researchers. Andrew Jensen, was an assistant to the Mormon Church historian. Andrew in his research list Jospeh Smith jr with a total of 27 wives. this is on pages 233-234 of the Chruch Historical Record.

 

[Deraj]

If you want to say with only those who are or were LDS researchers. Andrew Jensen, was an assistant to the Mormon Church historian. Andrew in his research list Jospeh Smith jr with a total of 27 wives. this is on pages 233-234 of the Chruch Historical Record.

No. I want to do the researching for myself, and I want to see primary sources, not secondary sources.

 

[buddy mack]

No. I want to do the researching for myself, and I want to see primary sources, not secondary sources.

then i suggest you make calls to Church HQ and ask them to give you an appointment to research the Church vaults and library. Hope you like traviling.