Warren Jeffs vs Joseph Smith

[Swart]

Ignorance

is bliss!

 

[intrepid]

You should have this discussion with Dawn. She has researched it more than most and has come to the conclusion that JS never took a plural wife.

I don't have strong opinions either ways, but the evidence is quite compelling that he didn't:

1. Emma maintained to her death that JS never had a plural wife
2. JS III travelled to Utah and interviewed all the women that claimed to have married JS and found no evidence that any of them were.
3. In an age of zero effective contraception, there are no children of JS to anyone other than Emma.
4. JS maintained it was not only the first wife who gave consent, but the one who chose the plural wives. Emma never gave consent to Joseph.

I have not researched this extensively. I have read that Oliver Cowdery was so incensed by Joseph's "filthy affair" with a woman named Fanny Alger that he left the church for a while. Maybe he got it wrong. Your point #1 I am aware of; the rest are news to me and contradict Mormon Enigma, which I admit that I have not read.

Peace and love.

 

[drstevej]

JS maintained it was not only the first wife who gave consent, but the one who chose the plural wives. Emma never gave consent to Joseph.

So did Emma disobey D&C 132:52 ??

And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph

And if JS took no plural wives, did he refuse what the LDS God Gave him?

BTW, I can't help but think Bill Clinton would have loved to have this kind of revelation...

D&C 132:56

And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.

 

[buddy mack]

However, this isn't what was intended with Joseph Smith. He's probably rolling in his grave over the blatant abuse of others behind the mask of righteousness. The Lord, and Joseph Smith, never intended for polygamy to be the mask behind which abuse hides.

These are example of people taking the teaching of someone, and distorting it. Kind of like some Muslims taking the teaching of Jihad, and distorting it to mean that it is in reference to a physical war.

maybe this is why he is turning in his grave. and speaking of abuse of others intentions. what was Joseph intentions with his house guess Fanny Alger?

 

[buddy mack]

My dear friend: My wife read a book called Mormon Enigma, which I have not read. She was a Mormon when she read it (with a Temple Recommend for 39 consecutive years). She discovered that Joseph Smith married teenaged girls, married and procreated with women who were married to other men (conveniently sent on missions by Mr. Smith), and that he promised exaltation to entire families if he was allowed to marry a daughter. These things he did because he claimed they were divinely inspired - he was directed to do so by God. The book was written by two LDS women. I recommend it to you.

I only wish every TBM would take up this book and read how Joseph put so many families through Hell with his need for extra marriageable afairs. even if sex wasn't evoloved the pressure placed upon these families and Emma was something a god of mormonism must have not seen.
The saddest story of them all was the one where a Father offered his wife to Joseph if he would give up his desire for the Father's young virgin daughter.
at this moment i knew without a doubt my opinion of Joseph Smith was that of a sick preverted con-man of major porportions. I have seen nothing over the past years to change my mind, but any TBM out there is welcome to give it a try.

 

[buddy mack]

You should have this discussion with Dawn. She has researched it more than most and has come to the conclusion that JS never took a plural wife.

I don't have strong opinions either ways, but the evidence is quite compelling that he didn't:

1. Emma maintained to her death that JS never had a plural wife
2. JS III travelled to Utah and interviewed all the women that claimed to have married JS and found no evidence that any of them were.
3. In an age of zero effective contraception, there are no children of JS to anyone other than Emma.
4. JS maintained it was not only the first wife who gave consent, but the one who chose the plural wives. Emma never gave consent to Joseph.

i sometimes do my research with binders on too, but heck i wouldnt say i was totally blind.

 

[logichopper]

The problem with this irrationality is that you've got the cart before the horse. The inquisition was sanctioned and funded by the RCC. The FLDS are an apostate group that have nothing to do with the CoJCoLDS. They practice a form of PM that is vastly removed from the 19C practice. What the FLDS practice now would have be held in contempt by 19C LDS when it was typical for the husband to be ten years older than the first wife. The prevailing attitude of the general population at the time was for the husband to have worked for lon enough to have his land and build a house before taking a wife. This typically happened by the time the man was in his mid twenties. In contrast, a woman was considered of marriagable age upon entering puberty; eighteen year olds were often labelled 'old maids'. In PM, the second wife (and subsequent) wives were typically older women or widows. Often it was a form of social security. In all cases, the first wife chose the other wives.

Contrast this with the actions of the FLDS, where men in their forties and fifties (and older) are being married to pre-pubescent girls against their will and then forcibly raping them on their wedding night.

What the FLDS practice now would have be held in contempt by 19C LDS when it was typical for the husband to be ten years older than the first wife.

What Joseph Smith did during the 19C mormon church WAS held in contempt by the rest of society. The entire mormon church practice of polygamy was held in contempt by our society from its' inception until today!

Again, another striking similarity between Jeffs and Smith!!!

 

[Guyver]

The "shortage of women" is a bad analogy. The best theory so far is an abundance of women, and giving the Church's standpoint on a strong family block, these widows and single women would need to be cared for.

A dissimilarity is the fact that the majority of these fundamentalist LDS goups that practive polygamy, the majority of the group practices it, while with Joseph Smith, and even with Brigham Young, only about 2% of the brethren practiced it, with the vast majority of that 2% (about 75%) having only 1 additional wife.

Actually these widows and single women where very often neglected in the polygamous marriages piticuliary in the case of Brigham Yoing. I believe in one instance when one of his wives went to him for some money and a decent place to live ( She was living in a one bedroom shack at the time) he said his cow was better then her. You need to read Todd Comptons book In Sacred Loneliness, but then again that would be "Anti-Mormon" material wouldn't it.

 

[Guyver]

My dear friend: My wife read a book called Mormon Enigma, which I have not read. She was a Mormon when she read it (with a Temple Recommend for 39 consecutive years). She discovered that Joseph Smith married teenaged girls, married and procreated with women who were married to other men (conveniently sent on missions by Mr. Smith), and that he promised exaltation to entire families if he was allowed to marry a daughter. These things he did because he claimed they were divinely inspired - he was directed to do so by God. The book was written by two LDS women. I recommend it to you.

Read Todd Compton's book in Sacred Lonliness a very good read I must say. After reading it you will definately come away with a sour taste in your mouth and you will see just how much of a pig JS was.

 

[newyorksaint]

Actually these widows and single women where very often neglected in the polygamous marriages piticuliary in the case of Brigham Yoing. I believe in one instance when one of his wives went to him for some money and a decent place to live ( She was living in a one bedroom shack at the time) he said his cow was better then her. You need to read Todd Comptons book In Sacred Loneliness, but then again that would be "Anti-Mormon" material wouldn't it.

The vast majority of accounts actually state that all wives in a polygamous relationship were cared for. In fact, the laws of the Church did not allow such a relationship to occur unless the male could provide for his wives. They were not neglected, and had to be cared for.

 

[Guyver]

The vast majority of accounts actually state that all wives in a polygamous relationship were cared for. In fact, the laws of the Church did not allow such a relationship to occur unless the male could provide for his wives. They were not neglected, and had to be cared for.

Sources please. I am sorry your accounts are wrong, like I said read Comptons book if you are allowed to. The sources he uses are those womens personnel diaries and journals and they all paint a picture of neglect, but I am sure you will come up with something to discount them or Todd Compton himself.

 

[newyorksaint]

Have you any other sources than this Compton book? I will look for it, but my local library is limited, and my funding is, at best, lacking, at present.

 

[baker]

Have you any other sources than this Compton book? I will look for it, but my local library is limited, and my funding is, at best, lacking, at present.

You can get the Compton book from lds church owned 'Deseret Book".

See here:

http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=3210062

 

[newyorksaint]

You can get the Compton book from lds church owned 'Deseret Book".

See here:

http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=3210062

I understand. Are there any other sources to support your claim?

 

[drstevej]

I understand. Are there any other sources to support your claim?

the testimony of shamed women doesn't count?

"Better put some ice on that"
- William Clinton to Juanita Broderick

 

[newyorksaint]

the testimony of shamed women doesn't count?

"Better put some ice on that"
- William Clinton to Juanita Broderick

I didn't say that it didn't. However, this is one book. There are more accounts, in serval different sources, that say contrary to what is claimed is said by these women.

 

[newyorksaint]

According to the reviews of the book, it's worth the read. It seems to be split down the center, those that think it's valid research, and those that don't. However, the majority seem to think that Compton's opinions may not be valid, regardless if his research is. In other words, the accounts may be accurate, but Compton's conclusions may not be. I'll have to see if I can find it.

Reviews from Desert Book: http://deseretbook.com/store/reviews?sku=3210062

Reviews from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/156085085X/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/104-8406069-0603920?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

Institute for Religious Research, Mormons in Transition Review: http://www.irr.org/MIT/sacredlon.html

 

[drstevej]

According to the reviews of the book, it's worth the read. It seems to be split down the center, those that think it's valid research, and those that don't. However, the majority seem to think that Compton's opinions may not be valid, regardless if his research is. In other words, the accounts may be accurate, but Compton's conclusions may not be. I'll have to see if I can find it.

Reviews from Desert Book: http://deseretbook.com/store/reviews?sku=3210062

Reviews from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/156085085X/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/104-8406069-0603920?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

Institute for Religious Research, Mormons in Transition Review: http://www.irr.org/MIT/sacredlon.html

I bought a used copy on Amazon cheap.

 

[newyorksaint]

I bought a used copy on Amazon cheap.

I just looked, and it said "new and used from $26.97". I unfortunately cannot afford that right now, so I'm going to see if my local library has a copy, or if they can send for a copy.

 

[Guyver]

Have you any other sources than this Compton book? I will look for it, but my local library is limited, and my funding is, at best, lacking, at present.

I suggest you read the book and draw your own conclusions. LDS members are quick to discredit him and his sources without even seeing the book let alone reading it and looking at the referance section at the end of the book, it is very extensive drawing from alot of sources too many in fact to just throw it all away to hersey and rumor.