Does the Bible Teach Blind Obedience to the State?

[BobRyan]

And what others have demonstrated is that what you think Paul meant to say is not what Paul meant to say!

I have yet to see that in the text.

 

[Carl Emerson]

My point us that the Rom 13 statements above by Paul are penned in the context of being subjected to one of the worst tyrannical governments in history. IT was not a case of "Rome is so sweet and good and nice that for now we can say God has put the sword in Ceasar's hand because he is soooo good. "

In other words the idea that we can ignore Rom 13 today because something amiss has happened in this or that government does not fly. Because even in one of the worst governments in all of history -- Paul was writing things like Rom 13

Would you like to answer my question...

Who killed the Apostles and church fathers?

 

[BobRyan]

Would you like to answer my question...

Who killed the Apostles and church fathers?

My statements above all say it was the pagan Roman Empire about which Paul speaks in Rom 13

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dietrich Bonhoeffer refused to go along with the Nazi government, and paid with his life,
just before the surrender of Germany in WWII.

One of the criticisms of the German churches was that they were silent during the uprising
of the Nazi Socialist Party. Had they spoken out as Bonhoeffer did, perhaps there wouldn't
have been a holocaust, or more martyrs in the churches. A few others did give their lives
like Saint Maximillian Kolbe.

 

[Carl Emerson]

My statements above all say it was the pagan Roman Empire about which Paul speaks in Rom 13

Were they an instrument of God in the doing ?

Maybe I misunderstand you...

Are you advocating blind obedience to a Pagan Authority ?

 

[BobRyan]

Were they an instrument of God in the doing ?

Maybe I misunderstand you...

Are you advocating blind obedience to a Pagan Authority ?

I am pointing out the inconvenient details of Rom 13 that Paul was speaking of his own worst-case pagan Roman government in Rom 13. The very thing people sometimes wish to omit from the context of the chapter.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So then - let's look at Rom 13 --

Rom 13:
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Now lets keep in mind that the Christians were living under the tyranny of Rome - one of the worst governments in human history.

Rome would kill Paul, kill Peter, kill Christ and persecute Christians. Domitian tried to kill the apostle John

AI says this about that issue
"The Pagan Roman Empire could be considered harsh and tyrannical at times, especially under certain emperors who were known for brutality and paranoia. While the empire also experienced periods of stability and good governance, figures like Nero, Domitian, and Caligula are remembered for their tyrannical reigns"

So then - even in the case of one of the worst of governing empires - Rom 13 was penned.

And let’s not forget that the man who wrote the book of Romans was later imprisoned and martyred for preaching the gospel and refusing to renounce Christ just like the rest of the apostles.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I am pointing out the inconvenient details of Rom 13 that Paul was speaking of his own worst-case pagan Roman government in Rom 13. The very thing people sometimes wish to omit from the context of the chapter.

He also urged believers to flee - not all were called to submit to the Pagan authority and give up their lives in so doing.
In fact Roman oppression was a factor God used to rapidly spread the Gospel with those who fled.

In Acts 4 we see the Apostles were led to preach the Gospel illegally and not submit.

The personal calling of God in some cases, can override general principle.

 

[BobRyan]

He also urged believers to flee - not all were called to submit to the Pagan authority and give up their lives in so doing.

Rom 13 is not about believers not fleeing persecution.

It is about being subject the laws of the land, and the blessing that government brings to the citizens that are benefited by law and order rather than rampant crime.

In Acts 4 we see the Apostles were led to preach the Gospel illegally and not submit.

Indeed - Christians often preach the gospel under persecution.

the book of Acts has many examples of Paul being persecuted in one city - and fleeing/moving-on to the next city where he is welcomed at least for a while.

 

[BobRyan]

And let’s not forget that the man who wrote the book of Romans was later imprisoned and martyred for preaching the gospel and refusing to renounce Christ just like the rest of the apostles.

True.

Sometimes Christians are persecuted by the state. Rom 13 is not denying that nor stating that Christians cannot flee persecution

 

[Carl Emerson]

How then can you be subject to authority and and act illegally as in Acts 4?

 

[BNR32FAN]

True.

Sometimes Christians are persecuted by the state. Rom 13 is not denying that nor stating that Christians cannot flee persecution

Well my point is that all of the apostles were not acting in cooperation with the governing authorities by preaching the gospel which is why they were arrested and martyred. Government laws do not supersede God’s laws. Daniel was another clear example of that.

 

[BobRyan]

Well my point is that all of the apostles were not acting in cooperation with the governing authorities by preaching the gospel which is why they were arrested and martyred. Government laws do not supersede God’s laws. Daniel was another clear example of that.

Nebuchadnezzar and Darius are examples of rulers in Babylon that would strongly affirm/support Daniel even though there are cases listed where Christian morals dictated that Daniel not cooperate in every detail with the state.

Christians comply with the state as Rom 13 points out right up to the point where the state dictates a course that violates conscience.

Nebuchadnezzar and Darius both consider Daniel to either be their employ or an advisor to the state - in good standing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nebuchadnezzar and Darius are examples of rulers in Babylon that would strongly affirm/support Daniel even though there are cases listed where Christian morals dictated that Daniel not cooperate in every detail with the state.

Christians comply with the state as Rom 13 points out right up to the point where the state dictates a course that violates conscience.

Nebuchadnezzar and Darius both consider Daniel to either be their employ or an advisor to the state - in good standing.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were thrown into the furnace for refusing to comply with the law of bowing down to Nebuchadnezzar’s statue.

 

[BobRyan]

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were thrown into the furnace for refusing to comply with the law of bowing down to Nebuchadnezzar’s statue.

By the same Nebuchadnezzar that then promoted them to high government office.

So then Christians hold to their moral convictions even while serving in government office as we see in Dan 3.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Christians comply with the state as Rom 13 points out right up to the point where the state dictates a course that violates conscience.

@BobRyan At that point do they leave the area of jurisdiction or stay and refuse the authority as the Apostles did ?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

So then - let's look at Rom 13 --

Rom 13:
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Now lets keep in mind that the Christians were living under the tyranny of Rome - one of the worst governments in human history.

Rome would kill Paul, kill Peter, kill Christ and persecute Christians. Domitian tried to kill the apostle John

AI says this about that issue
"The Pagan Roman Empire could be considered harsh and tyrannical at times, especially under certain emperors who were known for brutality and paranoia. While the empire also experienced periods of stability and good governance, figures like Nero, Domitian, and Caligula are remembered for their tyrannical reigns"

So then - even in the case of one of the worst of governing empires - Rom 13 was penned.

Paul violated several Roman laws when he wrote Romans 13:1-5. Romans 13 is not about obedience to government but about living harmoniously.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I am pointing out the inconvenient details of Rom 13 that Paul was speaking of his own worst-case pagan Roman government in Rom 13. The very thing people sometimes wish to omit from the context of the chapter.

Let's consider this perspective.

Romans 1: 7 “To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:”

By writing this verse, Paul broke Roman laws. At that time, it was against Roman law to preach different religions to Roman citizens.

In Acts 16:16-34 we find that Paul was accused of “advocating customs that are unlawful for…Romans to adopt or observe.” The accusation was true! By preaching the Gospel, Paul advocated for customs that were unlawful for Romans to observe.

Romans: 13: 1 “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”

In this verse, Paul challenges Caesar's authority. According to Roman law, Caesar was considered a god, equal to other gods and not appointed by a higher power. However, Paul asserts that Caesar is merely a man appointed by God. This teaching contradicted Roman law and was punishable by death.

Romans 13:4 “For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. “

Paul once again broke the law. The Roman emperor was considered a god, but Paul preached that the emperor was appointed by another God, challenging Caesar's authority.


Romans 13 discusses Christian life within society and following the law. It does not advocate blind obedience.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's consider this perspective.

Romans 1: 7 “To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:”

By writing this verse, Paul broke Roman laws. At that time, it was against Roman law to preach different religions to Roman citizens.

Romans ruling over Judea seemed to think it was ok for Jews to "be alive" and have synagogues. You see those synagogues all over the Roman empire at the time of Acts.

In Acts 16:16-34 we find that Paul was accused of “advocating customs that are unlawful for…Romans to adopt or observe.”

Acts 16 - out-in-the-open monotheistic Bible based worship

12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia, a Roman colony; and we were staying in this city for some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled.​

Even demons publicizing that these were mono-theistic servants of God- did not get the Romans to oppose them in Acts 16

16 It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, “These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.” 18 She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed​

Notice it is not Romans that are "greatly annoyed" at that - but Paul.

NOW those who object are the pagans who were in the business of slave trade selling the services of the demon who possessed the girl.
They were the ones coming up with fake accusations.

19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities, 20 and when they had brought them to the chief magistrates, they said, “These men are throwing our city into confusion, being Jews, 21 and are proclaiming customs which it is not lawful for us to accept or to observe, being Romans.”​

Notice they do not complain "our hope of profit is gone - they cast out our demon"

And end the end the authorities begged Paul to leave peacefully --

35 Now when day came, the chief magistrates sent their policemen, saying, “Release those men.” 36 And the jailer reported these words to Paul, saying, “The chief magistrates have sent to release you. Therefore come out now and go in peace.” 37 But Paul said to them, “They have beaten us in public without trial, men who are Romans, and have thrown us into prison; and now are they sending us away secretly? No indeed! But let them come themselves and bring us out.” 38 The policemen reported these words to the chief magistrates. They were afraid when they heard that they were Romans, 39 and they came and appealed to them, and when they had brought them out, they kept begging them to leave the city. 40 They went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia, and when they saw the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.​

So I don't see it as making your case - but even so Rom 13 does not say "only if Rome is perfect, only then obey". Rather in all its corruption Paul still said to obey civil laws so far as conscience informed by scripture allows.

Romans: 13: 1 “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”

In this verse, Paul challenges Caesar's authority.

I don't see any challenge to Caesar.

When Christ was put on trial the POV of Pilate was not "you are a Jew, a monotheist - I condemn you" -- rather it was "I find no fault in Him"

 

[BNR32FAN]

By the same Nebuchadnezzar that then promoted them to high government office.

So then Christians hold to their moral convictions even while serving in government office as we see in Dan 3.

I’m not sure what your point is here.