Warren Jeffs vs Joseph Smith

[newyorksaint]

Astute observation. Perhaps another equally applicable one would be that Jeffs is a little taller than Smith by all historical accounts.

By jove, we have another difference!
​

 

[intrepid]

I'm reading Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer, but it's so depressing that I may never finish it. It's the story of Dan Lafferty and his murder of a completely innocent woman and her precious girl-child. Vile stuff.

The prosecutor, David Leavitt, said, "People in the state of Utah simply do not understand, and have not understood for fifty years, the devastating effect that the practice of polygamy has on young girls in our society." (p. 24) The simple fact is that the Lafferty brothers, and Warren Jeffs, are following the teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mr. Smith, dead in his grave for over 160 years, continues to have this dilaterious effect on 21st century America and Canada, and Mexico. Could he really be gazing down upon us from the Celestial Kingdom?

There is a community of FLDS living on a 1600 acre ranch in west Texas - my home state. They surely practice polygamy. Why should I care? Because I'll bet anyone $100 that underage girls are routinely "married" to male members. Why do I suspect that? Because that is common among these groups and the precedent was set by Joseph Smith, Jr. himself. Those girls are victims of the teachings of the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter days Saints. Of that there is no question.

Peace and love.

 

[logichopper]

Why should I care? Because I'll bet anyone $100 that underage girls are routinely "married" to male members.

Another striking similarity between Jeffs and Smith.

"By their fruits ye shall know them"

 

[newyorksaint]

I'm reading Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer, but it's so depressing that I may never finish it. It's the story of Dan Lafferty and his murder of a completely innocent woman and her precious girl-child. Vile stuff.

The prosecutor, David Leavitt, said, "People in the state of Utah simply do not understand, and have not understood for fifty years, the devastating effect that the practice of polygamy has on young girls in our society." (p. 24) The simple fact is that the Lafferty brothers, and Warren Jeffs, are following the teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mr. Smith, dead in his grave for over 160 years, continues to have this dilaterious effect on 21st century America and Canada, and Mexico. Could he really be gazing down upon us from the Celestial Kingdom?

There is a community of FLDS living on a 1600 acre ranch in west Texas - my home state. They surely practice polygamy. Why should I care? Because I'll bet anyone $100 that underage girls are routinely "married" to male members. Why do I suspect that? Because that is common among these groups and the precedent was set by Joseph Smith, Jr. himself. Those girls are victims of the teachings of the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter days Saints. Of that there is no question.

Peace and love.

However, this isn't what was intended with Joseph Smith. He's probably rolling in his grave over the blatant abuse of others behind the mask of righteousness. The Lord, and Joseph Smith, never intended for polygamy to be the mask behind which abuse hides.

These are example of people taking the teaching of someone, and distorting it. Kind of like some Muslims taking the teaching of Jihad, and distorting it to mean that it is in reference to a physical war.

 

[logichopper]

However, this isn't what was intended with Joseph Smith. He's probably rolling in his grave over the blatant abuse of others behind the mask of righteousness.

Actually, I believe there is a much stronger factual case that the intent with Smith was much more a "personal lifestyle" desire than it is with Jeffs.

There was simply no reasonable nor logical reason for polygamy during Smith's life. Polygamy provided nothing to the mormon church then, that would not have been accomplished with monogamy. There was no shortage of child bearing women by all historical accounts. I think Smith just needed multiple women in his life, be it for sexual, physical or emotional shortcomings he perceived or experienced

There is a much stronger case to made with Jeffs situation as their are definately a shortage of women, by practical isolation, willing (or able)to accept his teachings and the ability to raise seed can be directly attributed to need for polygamy.

The Lord, and Joseph Smith, never intended for polygamy to be the mask behind which abuse hides.

Again, very hard to make a publicly accepted argument that polygamy was ever a commandment by God. Too many denials and deception over too long a period by Smith to claim it was "God's commandment in hindsight. I mean think about it, what other "commandment from God" needed a 20+ year test drive and relocation before being publically admitted! A little tough to sell that one!

Again, both Smith and Jeffs had/are having a tough time convincing most reasonable thinking people. Another striking similarity!

 

[newyorksaint]

Actually, I believe there is a much stronger factual case that the intent with Smith was much more a "personal lifestyle" desire than it is with Jeffs.

There was simply no reasonable nor logical reason for polygamy during Smith's life. Polygamy provided nothing to the mormon church then, that would not have been accomplished with monogamy. There was no shortage of child bearing women by all historical accounts. I think Smith just needed multiple women in his life, be it for sexual, physical or emotional shortcomings he perceived or experienced

There is a much stronger case to made with Jeffs situation as their are definately a shortage of women, by practical isolation, willing (or able)to accept his teachings and the ability to raise seed can be directly attributed to need for polygamy.



Again, very hard to make a publicly accepted argument that polygamy was ever a commandment by God. Too many denials and deception over too long a period by Smith to claim it was "God's commandment in hindsight. I mean think about it, what other "commandment from God" needed a 20+ year test drive and relocation before being publically admitted! A little tough to sell that one!

Again, both Smith and Jeffs had/are having a tough time convincing most reasonable thinking people. Another striking similarity!

The "shortage of women" is a bad analogy. The best theory so far is an abundance of women, and giving the Church's standpoint on a strong family block, these widows and single women would need to be cared for.

A dissimilarity is the fact that the majority of these fundamentalist LDS goups that practive polygamy, the majority of the group practices it, while with Joseph Smith, and even with Brigham Young, only about 2% of the brethren practiced it, with the vast majority of that 2% (about 75%) having only 1 additional wife.

 

[logichopper]

The "shortage of women" is a bad analogy. The best theory so far is an abundance of women, and giving the Church's standpoint on a strong family block, these widows and single women would need to be cared for.

A dissimilarity is the fact that the majority of these fundamentalist LDS goups that practive polygamy, the majority of the group practices it, while with Joseph Smith, and even with Brigham Young, only about 2% of the brethren practiced it, with the vast majority of that 2% (about 75%) having only 1 additional wife.

Saint,

Don't know for sure but you sound like a recently returned lds missionary or one who uses the missionaries for his/her source of information. Most of your response above is merely "faith promoting history" which has been told year after year in the lds church and accepted by those who have not take the time to investigate the facts for themselves. It is told to the missionaries as a way of "deferring" the real history and issues that make the subject of polygamy so troubling and embarrasing for the mormon church.

By way of demonstrating my point, can you provide any objective evidence for statements above? [Other than what may have been taught in the MTC?]

 

[intrepid]

However, this isn't what was intended with Joseph Smith. He's probably rolling in his grave over the blatant abuse of others behind the mask of righteousness. The Lord, and Joseph Smith, never intended for polygamy to be the mask behind which abuse hides.

My dear friend: My wife read a book called Mormon Enigma, which I have not read. She was a Mormon when she read it (with a Temple Recommend for 39 consecutive years). She discovered that Joseph Smith married teenaged girls, married and procreated with women who were married to other men (conveniently sent on missions by Mr. Smith), and that he promised exaltation to entire families if he was allowed to marry a daughter. These things he did because he claimed they were divinely inspired - he was directed to do so by God. The book was written by two LDS women. I recommend it to you.

 

[Ran77]

The prosecutor, David Leavitt, said, "People in the state of Utah simply do not understand, and have not understood for fifty years, the devastating effect that the practice of polygamy has on young girls in our society." (p. 24) The simple fact is that the Lafferty brothers, and Warren Jeffs, are following the teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mr. Smith, dead in his grave for over 160 years, continues to have this dilaterious effect on 21st century America and Canada, and Mexico. Could he really be gazing down upon us from the Celestial Kingdom?

There is a community of FLDS living on a 1600 acre ranch in west Texas - my home state. They surely practice polygamy. Why should I care? Because I'll bet anyone $100 that underage girls are routinely "married" to male members. Why do I suspect that? Because that is common among these groups and the precedent was set by Joseph Smith, Jr. himself. Those girls are victims of the teachings of the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter days Saints. Of that there is no question.

I love the line of reasoning that disallows freewill and places the blame for actions not on the people who do them, but supposedly on the teachings of others. Joseph Smith did not teach people to murder, as being cited here. How about any of the Crusades or the Inquisition or any of the extremely numerous other atrocities that are purpetrated by people who insist that it is God's will and they are only following the teachings of the Bible?

I just love how the sinful acts of those affiliated with the LDS Church are the teachings of the Church while those of christianity are misguided zealots. I am curious as to what creates the sort of blinders that allow a person to rationalize a situation to whatever suits them.


Then, of course, there is much used "young girl" argument; whereby, the actions of Joseph Smith are compared to the standards accepted by our society at this time. When Joseph Smith was alive it was common practice to marry teenage women. A girl that waited until 18 (todays youngest acceptable age of marriage) would be considered an old maid. And anyone who waited until 30 to start a family would have been considered a freak - if they had used such terms back then.

This is the kind of thinking that makes me just shake my head.

 

[logichopper]

How about any of the Crusades or the Inquisition or any of the extremely numerous other atrocities that are purpetrated by people who insist that it is God's will and they are only following the teachings of the Bible?

Ran,

This is a great analogy. I remember the beloved and belated John Paul II finally having to apologize for the inappropriate actions of his church during the "inqusition". He was a humble and humiliated man who recognized that the only way his church could move forward and ask the forgiveness of God was to admitt and confess to the misgivings.

I think this is what the rest of the christian community and many members [or prospective members] of the lds church are waithing for as well. I think most reasonable people recognize the adverse impact that polygamy, much like the priesthood/black issue, has brought upon the the lds church. I think what most people "shake their head to", is the fact that the leaders of the lds church have not done the obvious and right thing in denouncing these past practices.

What John Paul II did was to recognize that "men" make mistakes in carrying out the word of god.

The lds church finds itself in a bit of a pickle in that they cannot do the same without underminding the claim of "Prophecy". Hard pill to swallow, but will eventually bring down the lds church if not done.

Many of us shake our heads as well!!

 

[intrepid]

I love the line of reasoning that disallows freewill and places the blame for actions not on the people who do them, but supposedly on the teachings of others. Joseph Smith did not teach people to murder, as being cited here. How about any of the Crusades or the Inquisition or any of the extremely numerous other atrocities that are purpetrated by people who insist that it is God's will and they are only following the teachings of the Bible?

I just love how the sinful acts of those affiliated with the LDS Church are the teachings of the Church while those of christianity are misguided zealots. I am curious as to what creates the sort of blinders that allow a person to rationalize a situation to whatever suits them.


Then, of course, there is much used "young girl" argument; whereby, the actions of Joseph Smith are compared to the standards accepted by our society at this time. When Joseph Smith was alive it was common practice to marry teenage women. A girl that waited until 18 (todays youngest acceptable age of marriage) would be considered an old maid. And anyone who waited until 30 to start a family would have been considered a freak - if they had used such terms back then.

This is the kind of thinking that makes me just shake my head.

I'm sorry if I was unclear; I did not mean to imply that Mr. Lafferty, or anyone else, was led to commit murder by the teachings of JSj. Polygamy, however, divinely inspired, is another matter. The FLDS guys actually think that the LDS guys are the ones who are wrong. The FLDS guys don't consider their acts sinful; they are, in their minds, following the true teachings of the prophet.

I also have no intention to defend or explain the Crusades, those who murder abortionists, the Spanish Inquisition, or commit any crime in the name of Christianity, or any religion. I rationalize nothing in that regard. To do so would be disingenuous, as you correctly point out.

I agree that folks married at a younger age in the 19th century than today. They also died at a younger age. Had Joseph married, say, a 16 year old girl - and no other women - I would have no comment at all. One man, one woman in a monogamous marriage.

Peace and love.

 

[newyorksaint]

Saint,

Don't know for sure but you sound like a recently returned lds missionary or one who uses the missionaries for his/her source of information. Most of your response above is merely "faith promoting history" which has been told year after year in the lds church and accepted by those who have not take the time to investigate the facts for themselves. It is told to the missionaries as a way of "deferring" the real history and issues that make the subject of polygamy so troubling and embarrasing for the mormon church.

By way of demonstrating my point, can you provide any objective evidence for statements above? [Other than what may have been taught in the MTC?]

Having not served a mission, and getting my facts from various sources (a while ago, so the source names elude me), I do not consider them "faith promoting". Can evidence be provided for the contrary, that more than that number were involved in the practice?

 

[Ilikeairconditioning]

i know this blows a hole in boat and all.. but the MTC doesn't really teach the missionaries anything but the church's basic beliefs.

 

[logichopper]

Having not served a mission, and getting my facts from various sources (a while ago, so the source names elude me), I do not consider them "faith promoting".

Perhaps you should go back and revisit your sources first. I think you will find them at the minimum, inaccuate, and at the most: definately faith promoting. But you do the research first as you made the claims. I think that is only fair, don't you?

Can evidence be provided for the contrary, that more than that number were involved in the practice?

Oh most definately. All one needs to do is to look at the polygamous prophets of the mormon church. I think they pretty much set the standard and as we all know, they all had far and exceedingly more than "two'; wivess

 

[newyorksaint]

Perhaps you should go back and revisit your sources first. I think you will find them at the minimum, inaccuate, and at the most: definately faith promoting. But you do the research first as you made the claims. I think that is only fair, don't you?
Oh most definately. All one needs to do is to look at the polygamous prophets of the mormon church. I think they pretty much set the standard and as we all know, they all had far and exceedingly more than "two'; wivess

That wasn't what I stated. I said that only about 2% of the brethren (adult males of the Church) practiced polygamy, and the vast majority of those that did practice it, they only had 1 other wife-many times the wives were sisters.

The Presidents of the Church are not a good example for the standard (Brigham Young by far exceeded the average), and it is not fair to judge others based on their lifestyle. So, again, can any claim be made that the numbers were higher? I will try to find my sources. While no numbers were given, a history text I read stated that very few Mormons actually practiced polygamy, especcially when compared with other religious sects of the day.

 

[DjDan]

Why is mormonism even included in a Christian discussion page? Jesus is just one God among many to them.

Ignorance.

 

[Swart]

Ran,

This is a great analogy. I remember the beloved and belated John Paul II finally having to apologize for the inappropriate actions of his church during the "inqusition". He was a humble and humiliated man who recognized that the only way his church could move forward and ask the forgiveness of God was to admitt and confess to the misgivings.

The problem with this irrationality is that you've got the cart before the horse. The inquisition was sanctioned and funded by the RCC. The FLDS are an apostate group that have nothing to do with the CoJCoLDS. They practice a form of PM that is vastly removed from the 19C practice. What the FLDS practice now would have be held in contempt by 19C LDS when it was typical for the husband to be ten years older than the first wife. The prevailing attitude of the general population at the time was for the husband to have worked for lon enough to have his land and build a house before taking a wife. This typically happened by the time the man was in his mid twenties. In contrast, a woman was considered of marriagable age upon entering puberty; eighteen year olds were often labelled 'old maids'. In PM, the second wife (and subsequent) wives were typically older women or widows. Often it was a form of social security. In all cases, the first wife chose the other wives.

Contrast this with the actions of the FLDS, where men in their forties and fifties (and older) are being married to pre-pubescent girls against their will and then forcibly raping them on their wedding night.

 

[Swart]

I agree that folks married at a younger age in the 19th century than today. They also died at a younger age. Had Joseph married, say, a 16 year old girl - and no other women - I would have no comment at all. One man, one woman in a monogamous marriage.

Peace and love.

You should have this discussion with Dawn. She has researched it more than most and has come to the conclusion that JS never took a plural wife.

I don't have strong opinions either ways, but the evidence is quite compelling that he didn't:

1. Emma maintained to her death that JS never had a plural wife
2. JS III travelled to Utah and interviewed all the women that claimed to have married JS and found no evidence that any of them were.
3. In an age of zero effective contraception, there are no children of JS to anyone other than Emma.
4. JS maintained it was not only the first wife who gave consent, but the one who chose the plural wives. Emma never gave consent to Joseph.

 

[Swart]

i know this blows a hole in boat and all.. but the MTC doesn't really teach the missionaries anything but the church's basic beliefs.

That and how to spend 24hrs a day with another 19YO male without killing him.

During a paricularly hot day tracting, my companion remarked that he'd almost look forward to getting sick so he didn't have to tract in the heat. I agreed with him, I told him I looked forward to him getting sick too.

 

[Swart]

That wasn't what I stated. I said that only about 2% of the brethren (adult males of the Church) practiced polygamy, and the vast majority of those that did practice it, they only had 1 other wife-many times the wives were sisters.

I believe the actual figure is 3%, based on live sealings of the day as obtained from the IGI, with 50% of them being two wife families.

I can't remember the source, but I'll see if I can find it. From memory it was obtained by data-mining the IGI. Since these are available on CD-ROM (and I think the period in question covers just one of them) it should be a relatively simply programming effort to duplicate.

In fact, if work gets a little slow, I might just do it myself!