War

football5680 · Apr 14, 2017

W2L said:
Why then did Paul say our weapons of warfare are not carnal? and our fight isnt carnal either?

Because Saint Paul was not speaking about actual warfare which the context makes clear. Continue reading verse 5 and 6.

When Saint Paul was writing his letters, Christians were not in power and had no control over any government. In 300 years, this would change but what Saint Paul said about governments would still apply.

for he (Ruler/Government) is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. (Romans 13:4)

A ruler or government, waging war in accordance with the law of God to prevent greater evil from transpiring, does so as the servant of God. This is why the 6th commandment is not violated in the administration of justice or in warfare. We should try to avoid warfare if possible but if all other options have been exhausted and the qualifications for a just war have been met, then it should be waged with the goal of bringing peace as quickly as possible.

LionL · Apr 14, 2017

My thoughts on the matter - Jesus said to love our enemies. We might pray for someone we love, but we would not kill them.

By the way,

Neogaia777 said:
We (America) did not win WWII, but God did through America...

You forgot to mention France, Britain, Russia, China and a whole host of other countries who were fighting the Nazis long before America showed up. And the Manhattan project was a joint British/Canadian/American affair. The US's money and men helped a great deal but were only one part of a joint effort.

Neogaia777 · Apr 14, 2017

LionL said:
My thoughts on the matter - Jesus said to love our enemies. We might pray for someone we love, but we would not kill them.

By the way,
You forgot to mention France, Britain, Russia, China and a whole host of other countries who were fighting the Nazis long before America showed up. And the Manhattan project was a joint British/Canadian/American affair. The US's money and men helped a great deal but were only one part of a joint effort.

But, America getting involved was the tipping point of the outcome of the war, right?

buzuxi02 · Apr 14, 2017

We do not know whether God or even whether the "good guys" won without a counterfactual knowledge of what would have happened had our opponents won. The fact is we exterminated the largest Christian community in Japan with our nukes. The laws of the Geneva Convention if applied retroactively would have brought us up on multiple charges of war crimes. If you cannot wage war and be victorious without deliberately firebombing cities and exterminating civilians it meant you lost the war and was time to surrender and sign a treaty.

Neogaia777 · Apr 14, 2017

buzuxi02 said:
We do not know whether God or even whether the "good guys" won without a counterfactual knowledge of what would have happened had our opponents won. The fact is we exterminated the largest Christian community in Japan with our nukes. The laws of the Geneva Convention if applied retroactively would have brought us up on multiple charges of war crimes. If you cannot wage war and be victorious without deliberately firebombing cities and exterminating civilians it meant you lost the war and was time to surrender and sign a treaty.

Are you kidding me...? What would have happened and where would the world be right now if Hitler had won...?

There were many civilian casualties when we dropped "the bomb" but we had to bring the Japan government to it's knees...

We had to drop the bomb to win, otherwise we would not have, and Hitler and his progeny would be in control of the world right now... Would that be better? I don't think so...

Hitler was not looking to sign a treaty, neither was Japan, until after we bombed them...

You really think the world would be better off if we had not used the bomb on Japan, and invaded the shores of Normandy to defeat Hitler and all that we did during that war...

I cannot believe that you would think that Hitler's rule would be better than that of America's...

Your a traitor to your own kind in my opinion...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Apr 14, 2017

If we did not develop the bomb first, and used it, Hitler would have very shortly afterward, and what do you think he would have done with it...?

That would have been better I guess, huh...?

I have no doubt that half of the globe would not even be habitable right now, due to the radiation, had Hitler gotten it and used it before us... We only did it twice, Hitler would have done it 100 times over that...

Hell, we might even all be extinct right now had not America done what they did in WWII...

God Bless!

buzuxi02 · Apr 14, 2017

Hitler was already defeated when the war turned to Asia. But what we know is in the aftermath the world became divided between 2 ideologies, democracy and communism. Hitler was hardly a fan of communism. Both Stalin and Pol Pot killed more people than Hitler. We don't know whether communism would have survived or evolved differently with Nazis as their main adversaries. But as I said we firebombed Tokyo to dust and dropped 2 nukes on heavily populated cities AFTER Germany surrendered.

Neogaia777 · Apr 14, 2017

buzuxi02 said:
Hitler was already defeated when the war turned to Asia. But what we know is in the aftermath the world became divided between 2 ideologies, democracy and communism. Hitler was hardly a fan of communism. Both Stalin and Pol Pot killed more people than Hitler. We don't know whether communism would have survived or evolved differently with Nazis as their main adversaries. But as I said we firebombed Tokyo to dust and dropped 2 nukes on heavily populated cities AFTER Germany surrendered.

Well, that decision secured America's democracy (or republic) dictating the course for the rest of the world up to now, and I think the entire world is better off for it, whether they appreciate it or not...

Communism is a dream that just does not work in practical reality. It's either democracy or republic, and I favor a republic over democracy, or a democratic republic, for the same reason's ("absolute democracy" is a dream that just does not work, and cannot work, in practical reality as well)...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Apr 14, 2017

God wanted America to be at the forefront of leading the rest of the world up to now... The question now is: has that changed...? If so, we need to make sure America is still favored by God, by maintaining the moral high ground, or else...

LionL · Apr 14, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
But, America getting involved was the tipping point of the outcome of the war, right?

Yes. We (UK, France, Russia etc) couldn't have won the war without your help. Conversely, You couldn't have won the war without us. We both needed each other's help.

buzuxi02 · Apr 14, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
God wanted America to be at the forefront of leading the rest of the world up to now... The question now is: has that changed...? If so, we need to make sure America is still favored by God, by maintaining the moral high ground, or else...

What gives you that idea? Do you believe that at one time God wanted both America and the Soviet Union to rule together for about 80 years? Obviously the competition from the arms race to space exploration required this intense rivalry between the two. Perhaps before that God ordained the Ottoman Empire to rule for 350 years introducing Coffee to the west. And at one time he wanted the Mongol Dynasty to rule to bring silk trade, and possibly even the Moors were God''s chosen to be the advanced occupying force of western Europe for a fee centuries .

Neogaia777 · Apr 14, 2017

LionL said:
Yes. We (UK, France, Russia etc) couldn't have won the war without your help. Conversely, You couldn't have won the war without us. We both needed each other's help.

Will we unify again against this current threat...?

Neogaia777 · Apr 14, 2017

buzuxi02 said:
What gives you that idea? Do you believe that at one time God wanted both America and the Soviet Union to rule together for about 80 years? Obviously the competition from the arms race to space exploration required this intense rivalry between the two. Perhaps before that God ordained the Ottoman Empire to rule for 350 years introducing Coffee to the west. And at one time he wanted the Mongol Dynasty to rule to bring silk trade, and possibly even the Moors were God''s chosen to be the advanced occupying force of western Europe for a fee centuries .

Perhaps...

God Bless!

LionL · Apr 14, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Will we unify again against this current threat...?

Doubtful, as the threat is much smaller and not comparable to WWII. That said, if the USA and Russia continue to support different sides things could well escalate dramatically. Let's hope our leaders see sense.

Neogaia777 · Apr 14, 2017

LionL said:
Doubtful, as the threat is much smaller and not comparable to WWII. That said, if the USA and Russia continue to support different sides things could well escalate dramatically. Let's hope our leaders see sense.

Yes, hope so, I pray for it...

God Bless!

381465 · Apr 14, 2017

Jews prayed and begged for the bombing of concentration camps and German strongholds 75 years ago.

Libyans thanked America for the bombing of runways where sarin gas bombs were loaded onto aircraft to be dropped on them, killing men, women and children. That doesn't count as prayer for bombs, but I bet some prayed for intervention to allow them to live.

Pray for guidance and wisdom, pray for an end to evil...if the best course of action to stop evil is a bomb, pray for accuracy.

danstribe · Apr 14, 2017

W2L said:
If we want to get old testament on folks, sure. Im just going to be plain and honest. I cannot find in the NT where we are taught that we bomb people. We are taught to pray. I hear a lot of stuff on CF about the power of God. If we can trust God with our finances, our health, food and clothing, then why not trust him to protect us? Isn't the answer prayer? Isnt that sound doctrine? Sure we can quote Romans 13, but God never taught us to bear arms,. but to pray and turn the other cheek.

If we really were a nation of believers and worshipers of the One True God and of His Son then there would be no need for bombs or war or police or an army or doctors or insurance! Why do people vote? To put a MAN in charge and not God. But that is the way of the world and we Christians are living in it but are not to be a part of it. We are to be separate from the world and it's ways that are contrary to God's ways but to submit to those who are over us unless it means to sin then we are to die if necessary in order to obey God rather than men. We are to pray for God's guidance in those who rule over us even if they don't believe. So what I am saying is that those who do take part in fighting do not understand what it means to trust God completely. Christ said that there wouldn't be a lot of fully converted Christian people in the end time let alone a whole nation! That too is God's doing and He has used people to protect His people and continues to do so today. So IF you understand that God is our protector and deliverer and not the people who appear to do it, they are used by God, then continue to pray for His guidance in those who He chooses to use.

Waggles · Apr 14, 2017

W2L said:
Shouldn't we be praying instead of bombing people?

Yes, you are correct. Spirit-filled Christians are consecrated and thus set aside for a holy purpose, that is
to be living ambassadors to Christ Jesus and the gospel of peace.
We are not meant to entangle ourselves in worldly political affairs and social action.
Our job is to preach the gospel of salvation: Acts 2:38-39

However, this world is ruled by Satan and other fallen angels, and thus the history of our planet is one of empires and wars and conquests for worldly treasures and power.
America and Europe do this as much as anybody else. It is the history of politics and civilisation.

5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world
in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Luke 4:5-7

So called Christian societies from Rome through to now excuse war by complicated theology and doctrines permitting for war to be conducted.
Not only for defence but also to conquer and Christianize heathen and barbaric societies / peoples.
Whilst strictly speaking Jesus and the New Testament preached against the use of the sword, violence and war, the tragedy of our Church history is that Rome developed another form of Christian doctrine
that allowed for men to creatively interpret the scriptures to suit their needs.

Rome made Christianity a State religion that served the Empire. And this political use of religion continues all the way to today's wars and defending the homeland....

Only a tiny minority of Bible believing Christians comply with the strict requirements of the original gospels and epistles and spend all their efforts in preaching and healing, and living in peace with all others.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 14, 2017

W2L said:
This thread addresses the morality of war. How can we support war? Shouldn't we be praying instead of bombing people?

Well, in the Old Testament, God used His people for war to show that He is a punisher of those who do evil. God is into fair justice. However, in the New Testament (or New Covenant), things have changed. Jesus says we are to love and pray for our enemies.

So to answer your first question:

"We can't support war, if we are Christian in the sense that we are imitators of Christ."

As for an answer for your second question:

"Yes, we should be praying and we should be striving to make peace instead of bombing or hurting others." "However, nations today are under the influence of the evil one." "They are a part of the world system." "Daniel talks about how there are princes (demons) behind physical leaders of this world." "This is not to say they are demon possessed, it is merely to say that they are influenced by the devil and his world system because they are a part of the world."

Anyways, you may enjoy my Scriptural defense on New Testament Pacificism in this thread here.

Pacifism as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

May God bless you in all good things.
And please be well.

...

yeshuaslavejeff · Apr 14, 2017

QUOTE="LionL, post: 71126508, member: 373369"]By the way,
You forgot to mention France, Britain, Russia, China and a whole host of other countries who were fighting the Nazis long before America showed up. And the Manhattan project was a joint British/Canadian/American affair. The US's money and men helped a great deal but were only one part of a joint effort.[/QUOTE

"a joint effort."
A joint effort....
Then I read further...

QUOTE="danstribe, post: 71127430, member: 328112"]If we really were a nation of believers and worshipers of the One True God and of His Son then there would be no need for bombs or war or police or an army or doctors or insurance! Why do people vote? To put a MAN in charge and not God.[/QUOTE

War

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