War

[HermanNeutics13]

There is no such thing as "Just War" it was manufactured by Augustine to trick Christians into supporting Constantine's failing government. Worldly Christians and the governments of the past 1800 years perpetuate this fantasy because they don't believe Christ that we are to forgive our enemies and feed and cloth them, turn the other cheek and even die for them if necessary. Christians today will not follow Christ and believe that He must have been mistaken when He said these things. Well, His Apostles did not think He was mistaken and they all followed Him, and for three hundred year Christians followed Christ, untill Augustine created the Just War theory. Christians should have nothing to do with war.

It was kind of a compromise, on the one hand, it attempted to reign in the warmongering that was ushered in with Constantine, on the other hand, it was not pure pacifism like many of the pre-Constantine Christians. Today, Christians can't get enough of war, it is so often praised. It doesn't matter who we kill as long as it is our side doing it and not the other is the attitude.

 

[W2L]

There is no such thing as "Just War" it was manufactured by Augustine to trick Christians into supporting Constantine's failing government. Worldly Christians and the governments of the past 1800 years perpetuate this fantasy because they don't believe Christ that we are to forgive our enemies and feed and cloth them, turn the other cheek and even die for them if necessary. Christians today will not follow Christ and believe that He must have been mistaken when He said these things. Well, His Apostles did not think He was mistaken and they all followed Him, and for three hundred year Christians followed Christ, untill Augustine created the Just War theory. Christians should have nothing to do with war.

I believe that instead of fighting we should be praying. Its about faith, IMO.

 

[1213]

...Shouldn't we be praying instead of bombing people?

Yes, it is more difficult to help people, when they are dead.

 

[W2L]

Yes, it is more difficult to help people, when they are dead.

Thats true.

 

[HenryM]

This thread addresses the morality of war. How can we support war? Shouldn't we be praying instead of bombing people?

I have a belief, sort of, don't know how to put it, but I think that when God commanded killing in Old Testament those commandments were not only punishments on those who are to be killed, but on executioners too.

For example, if adulterer is to be stoned, judgement, or punishment, is also made to all the people who stoned them, by making them killers. And by the way, method for execution was that all people from the town or place come and throw a stone. That's an interesting thing. Everybody has to make their hands bloody. I think there's punishment in there.

We can debate why it would be so, but God's commandment is clear - don't murder. So regardless if He commands murder, His law still stands.

So I think those were punishments. Basically, some form of an all around punishments.

And it's the same for war. I think Israelis were punished by going into the war and killing people, regardless if God made them victorious.

 

[HermanNeutics13]

I conclude that Prayer is the answer. I cannot compare dropping bombs with being good Samaritan, or getting a Job and feeding myself.

Think about it. There are souls on the line. SHould we give everyone the opportunity to be saved? Bombing doesn't do that.

 

[W2L]

I have a belief, sort of, don't know how to put it, but I think that when God commanded killing in Old Testament those commandments were not only punishments on those who are to be killed, but on executioners too.

For example, if adulterer is to be stoned, judgement, or punishment, is also made to all the people who stoned them, by making them killers. And by the way, method for execution was that all people from the town or place come and throw a stone. That's an interesting thing. Everybody has to make their hands bloody. I think there's punishment in there.

We can debate why it would be so, but God's commandment is clear - don't murder. So regardless if He commands murder, His law still stands.

So I think those were punishments. Basically, some form of an all around punishments.

And it's the same for war. I think Israelis were punished by going into the war and killing people, regardless if God made them victorious.

Interesting, thank you.

 

[W2L]

Think about it. There are souls on the line. SHould we give everyone the opportunity to be saved? Bombing doesn't do that.

I agree.

 

[RDKirk]

I have a belief, sort of, don't know how to put it, but I think that when God commanded killing in Old Testament those commandments were not only punishments on those who are to be killed, but on executioners too.

I'd say two things about that.

One is that Israel was a very, very, very special case. It was the one earthly nation that God explicitly set up as His own. He explicitly defined Israel's borders. He appeared to them as fire and cloud and directly led them. He even grew the population itself from one hand-picked man. He took clear and continued interest in everything Israel did all the time.

Israel--as a nation--cannot be an example of how God considers any other worldly nation.

Second, as Christians we are under a different covenant from that of Israel, and we have a specifically prescribed mission to be out among nations that are foreign to us that Israel did not have.

 

[HenryM]

Interesting, thank you.

By the way, think about this.

2nd commandment says that for those who transgress it their children will be punished for three to four generations.

And we know that Israelis broke 2nd commandment right at the start of their wanderings, with golden calf. So they got their three to four next generations a guarantee that they'll be punished, just for that.

And when Moses' books end, and with them Israelis' wanderings, what's the first thing happening in the next book? It's Joshua being commanded to destroy Jericho and to have Israeli army kill everybody in it.

I don't know. But that looks like it could be part of punishment. If God wanted, God could have drove people from Jericho away in many ways, even sent them some deadly plagues, without having them slaughtered by Israelis.

 

[HenryM]

I'd say two things about that.

One is that Israel was a very, very, very special case. It was the one earthly nation that God explicitly set up as His own. He explicitly defined Israel's borders. He appeared to them as fire and cloud and directly led them. He even grew the population itself from one hand-picked man. He took clear and continued interest in everything Israel did all the time.

Israel--as a nation--cannot be an example of how God considers any other worldly nation.

Second, as Christians we are under a different covenant from that of Israel, and we have a specifically prescribed mission to be out among nations that are foreign to us that Israel did not have.

Yes, we can be mighty glad that God doesn't command us to kill like He did commanded Israelis.

 

[buzuxi02]

It was kind of a compromise, on the one hand, it attempted to reign in the warmongering that was ushered in with Constantine, on the other hand, it was not pure pacifism like many of the pre-Constantine Christians. Today, Christians can't get enough of war, it is so often praised. It doesn't matter who we kill as long as it is our side doing it and not the other is the attitude.

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. First off Augustine lived decades after Constantine. Also Augustine and most of the Latin's writings were never read in the east. Most were never even translated until after the invention of the printing press. There was absolutely no concept of a just war in eastern christianity. The reason for war was actually a non-issue. Only that if you did go to war you were to win and defeat your enemies regardless of whose at fault. Any mistakes or defeats could be analyzed afterwards. Just war theiry is a post Korean War development of Americans.

 

[HermanNeutics13]

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. First off Augustine lived decades after Constantine. Also Augustine and most of the Latin's writings were never read in the east. Most were never even translated until after the invention of the printing press. There was absolutely no concept of a just war in eastern christianity. The reason for war was actually a non-issue. Only that if you did go to war you were to win and defeat your enemies regardless of whose at fault. Any mistakes or defeats could be analyzed afterwards. Just war theiry is a post Korean War development of Americans.

I never said he lived during the time of COnstantine, what I meant is he tried to take us somewhat away from the ideas that Constantine had brought in earlier. It most certainly was not something we invented after the Korean war. Sure we hadn't been following it, but we haven't really followed it since either. Augustine's ideas had been known for centuries.

 

[buzuxi02]

None of the Roman emperors adhered to a just war military doctrine. Augustus Caesar made war, he went out of his way after solidifying his power to go into Alexandria and totally conquer that city from Cleopatra. Nero made war with the Jews as did Hadrian etc. Post -Christian empire did not mean there was some just war theory nor that wars increased. In fact Justinian was the last emperor to speak Latin and Augustines writings were never translated into Greek till a few centuries ago. No emperor ever read Augustine nor were aware of anything a just war military doctrine. Augustine was an obscure Christian writer only known through legends and from a few passing words from roman bishops. Meaning virtually no Roman emperor ever read anything by Augustine or any other Latin writer they simply did not circulate in Constantinople.
The empire would bribe their enemies with gold or other products if they thought they could avoid war with them. But their was never a litmus test or a checklist at any time. It was completely irrelevant whether it was moral or whether history would view them as the bad guys. The most important thing is if you did get into war you better be victorious. Everything else could be discussed in hindsight.

 

[HermanNeutics13]

None of the Roman emperors adhered to a just war military doctrine. Augustus Caesar made war, he went out of his way after solidifying his power to go into Alexandria and totally conquer that city from Cleopatra. Nero made war with the Jews as did Hadrian etc. Post -Christian empire did not mean there was some just war theory nor that wars increased. In fact Justinian was the last emperor to speak Latin and Augustines writings were never translated into Greek till a few centuries ago. No emperor ever read Augustine nor were aware of anything a just war military doctrine. Augustine was an obscure Christian writer only known through legends and from a few passing words from roman bishops. Meaning virtually no Roman emperor ever read anything by Augustine or any other Latin writer they simply did not circulate in Constantinople.
The empire would bribe their enemies with gold or other products if they thought they could avoid war with them. But their was never a litmus test or a checklist at any time. It was completely irrelevant whether it was moral or whether history would view them as the bad guys. The most important thing is if you did get into war you better be victorious. Everything else could be discussed in hindsight.

The Emperor's you mention are before Augustine. I agree that CHristians after Constantine war very much warmongers. The writings of Augustine were certainly known but the time of Aquina, so it's not like his writings were discovered in the 20th century. However even though the doctrine of Just War as Augustine wrote it wasn't known, there were other similar ideas.

 

[Sammy-San]

I'd say two things about that.

One is that Israel was a very, very, very special case. It was the one earthly nation that God explicitly set up as His own. He explicitly defined Israel's borders. He appeared to them as fire and cloud and directly led them. He even grew the population itself from one hand-picked man. He took clear and continued interest in everything Israel did all the time.

Israel--as a nation--cannot be an example of how God considers any other worldly nation.

Second, as Christians we are under a different covenant from that of Israel, and we have a specifically prescribed mission to be out among nations that are foreign to us that Israel did not have.

What is your interpertation of Numbers 31?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Maybe you should read up on what happened after the one earthly nation from one hand-picked man went to war against the 10 kings to get a better handle on what war was about in the context of God's people.

 

[RDKirk]

What is your interpertation of Numbers 31?

That God used His personally shaped nation for his own specific purpose.

 

[Sammy-San]

That God used His personally shaped nation for his own specific purpose.

Why not take the midianite boys in too? It must have been very horrible for the girls to have seen the israelites execute all their brothers.

 

[Sammy-San]

Tell that to the God of the OT.

I would never be a soldier because I pray for the salvation of others.

Buried Alive: The Horrifying Reality Of Hell

Hell is a Lake of Fire that is confined, dark and miserable. Revelation 20:14-15, “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” There won't be any sun, moon nor stars in Hell. It will be a confined place of the blackness of darkness.

The Worst Part About Going To Hell

The worst part about being in HELL is not being in HEAVEN. The most painful part about being in Hell with NOTHING, will be knowing that you could have had EVERYTHING. The most horrible part about being in the Lake of Fire with the DEVIL (who lived to ruin you), will be knowing that you could have spent eternity with JESUS (Who died to save you). Hell will be awful. Hell is a literal place of fire, torment, outer darkness and a bottomless pit; but the worst part about going to Hell is realizing day-and-night that YOU COULD HAVE ENJOYED ALL OF THE BLESSINGS OF GOD FOR FREE in Christ Jesus!!!

t.” People in Hell will be able to see what they could have had, and it will cause them to weep, wail and grit their teeth together with inexplicable anguish and excruciating mental horror. The realization that they fool-heartedly rejected an incredibly loving, patient, generous, caring and compassionate God, Who wanted to be their best friend, will burn in their mind forever. Whereas they could have dwelt with God, and enjoyed the pure water from the river of life in Heaven (Revelation 22:1); they won't be allowed to have even a single drop of water to cool their intolerable thirst (Luke 16:19-31).