War

[Albion]

Some feel that service men and women, police officers, politicians and those who support them cannot be Christians.

How does that not apply to every American? How could any American be a Christian

Logically, that would be what that camp is saying.

A portion of taxes go to funding military, police, abortion supporting entities, etc.
If, via taxes, we are supporting any cause that is anti-Christian...how can any claim to be Christians and be right?

Again, that follows from their argument. Unless every one of those people who are saying that it's unChristian to support war also withhold their taxes, they are guilty of that which they say they oppose.

 

[FatalHeart]

Exactly. I feel there is something more insidious to these views just as much as when a pastor leads his congregation for the money. Power is also a reason to be right and many are sentimental and judgmental, not because they care, but because the depth of their depravity is invested in the denegration of solid doctrine.

 

[FatalHeart]

I do however champion the idea of leaving things in the hands of God rather than relying on your own power when it is appropriate, which is not all the time. Just as prayer is right, but not the only thing that is required.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Hi.........we don't live in the OT.

However.. Our God is introduced in the Torah.What is He: A consuming fire.What does fire do? Purges.Let's not forget what He is.Or that He purges.And to answer the O.P no I don't believe in bombings and stuff like that but sometimes war is necessary.

 

[RDKirk]

They do not, but they usually must be willing to part of the oath of enlistment is the willingness to bear arms, so pasfists are not allowed. That does not mean that it is a regular part of their duty MOS/AFSC/Rating ( what the various branches call their enlisted jobs, but in today's all volunteer military they may NOT be morally opposed to bearing arms.

Yes, they can. Chaplains and doctors are certainly never required to bear arms, and the oath of enlistment or commission says nothing about that as a necessary obligation.

 

[RDKirk]

Keep in mind that we are governed by the government; because God has said that we are to obey the Earthly laws unless they oppose God and so in that sense we ARE governed by the government. Now, whether someone believes that the military fits in that catgory may be debatable, but in general we ARE in fact under the law of the land.

Is that true for all Christians everywhere? And if not, where does it say in the Bible that Christianity is not the same for North Korean Christians as it is for North American Christians?

I asked early in this thread, "who are the 'we' we're talking about?"

Are we talking about the worldwide Body of Christ when we say "we?"

I think there have been a number of people in this thread for whom "we" means "us Americans," not "us Christians."

But if we recognize as members of the Body of Christ, our citizenship is in Heaven and that we are "aliens," "pilgrims and sojourners" posted as "ambassadors" of Christ in these nations, then we'd do well to see how such diplomats actually operate in the nations of their postings.

For one, a diplomat does depend on the host nation for normal civil protection. Diplomats do not enlist in the militaries of their host nations (which--if we've carried out our mission of making disciples of all nations--would entail Christians killing Christians).

 

[dogs4thewin]

Yes, they can. Chaplains and doctors are certainly never required to bear arms, and the oath of enlistment or commission says nothing about that as a necessary obligation.

Right now ( as there is not a draft if you are CO you may NOT serve. In fact, if you are in and become one and can prove it HARD to do Even though it does not SAY it directly but it does say defend, and in today's military part of the requirements is to be willing to be a combatant. Now maybe when there was a DRAFT certain COs COULD serve, but what is this two score or better now since a draft has been in effect.

First, you would have to show that your beliefs changed significantly after you joined the military because you must certify that you are not a conscientious objector at the time of voluntary enlistment.

Four Ways to Get an Early Discharge from the Military

 

[KWCrazy]

There is this nasty thing called reality.
In reality, evil men have guns, bombs and chemical weapons.
Evil me thrive when good men do nothing. They use their weapons to murder the innocent.
Sometimes evil people from groups like ISIS that exist only to kill. They are like poisonous spiders in the baby's room. Does a caring parent not spray insecticide to protect the baby?
Does the person who watches the murder of innocents and does nothing not participate in that evil? Were the men who stormed the gates of the concentration camps and freed the inmates evil because they used force to do so?
The problem with your thinking is that you have been isolated from evil. You don't recognize it and as such don't think you have any duty to stop it.
The people who were gassed in Syria would not have been gassed had the Obama administration enforced its "line in the sand." If Syria refrains from using chemical weapons against innocents because Trump ordered the bombing of aircraft and equipment, is that not a good thing? We did not target civilians, we targeted weapons. We "killed" only steel.
In Afghanistan, 94 evil men were sent to Hell with a single bomb. No innocents were killed. Dozens; maybe hundreds were saved by eliminating the terrorists. Is that a bad thing, or should we have let them capture another 200 school children to torture and sell as slaves?
Should a police officer shoot an active shooter who is trying to kill as many people as possible or simply let him go until he runs out of bullets and victims?

We killed 135,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, thereby saving millions who would have dies in an invasion. Should we have killed the 135,000, or the millions???

 

[RDKirk]

Right now ( as there is not a draft if you are CO you may NOT serve. In fact, if you are in and become one and can prove it HARD to do Even though it does not SAY it directly but it does say defend, and in today's military part of the requirements is to be willing to be a combatant. Now maybe when there was a DRAFT certain COs COULD serve, but what is this two score or better now since a draft has been in effect.

First, you would have to show that your beliefs changed significantly after you joined the military because you must certify that you are not a conscientious objector at the time of voluntary enlistment.

Four Ways to Get an Early Discharge from the Military

I didn't say anything about CO.

Chaplains and doctors in the military are not ever required to take up arms. Under no circumstance would they be required to.

 

[RDKirk]

There is this nasty thing called reality.
In reality, evil men have guns, bombs and chemical weapons.
Evil me thrive when good men do nothing. They use their weapons to murder the innocent.
Sometimes evil people from groups like ISIS that exist only to kill. They are like poisonous spiders in the baby's room. Does a caring parent not spray insecticide to protect the baby?
Does the person who watches the murder of innocents and does nothing not participate in that evil? Were the men who stormed the gates of the concentration camps and freed the inmates evil because they used force to do so?
The problem with your thinking is that you have been isolated from evil. You don't recognize it and as such don't think you have any duty to stop it.
The people who were gassed in Syria would not have been gassed had the Obama administration enforced its "line in the sand." If Syria refrains from using chemical weapons against innocents because Trump ordered the bombing of aircraft and equipment, is that not a good thing? We did not target civilians, we targeted weapons. We "killed" only steel.
In Afghanistan, 94 evil men were sent to Hell with a single bomb. No innocents were killed. Dozens; maybe hundreds were saved by eliminating the terrorists. Is that a bad thing, or should we have let them capture another 200 school children to torture and sell as slaves?
Should a police officer shoot an active shooter who is trying to kill as many people as possible or simply let him go until he runs out of bullets and victims?

We killed 135,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, thereby saving millions who would have dies in an invasion. Should we have killed the 135,000, or the millions???

Who is this "we" are you talking about? Are you talking about something the nation of Heaven was engaged in? Or some earthly nation?

 

[dogs4thewin]

I didn't say anything about CO.

Chaplains and doctors in the military are not ever required to take up arms. Under no circumstance would they be required to.

To me it would seem that if they would not be willing to they would be a CO to a certain extent which can not serve. They also may not pick and choose which wars, either it is all or nothing in terms of that.

 

[RDKirk]

To me it would seem that if they would not be willing to they would be a CO to a certain extent which can not serve. They also may not pick and choose which wars, either it is all or nothing in terms of that.

The military understands that chaplains and doctors first belong to professions that forbid them from taking lives...understanding that, the military does not require them to do so.

 

[dogs4thewin]

The military understands that chaplains and doctors first belong to professions that forbid them from taking lives...understanding that, the military does not require them to do so.

OH I think I understand what you are saying.

 

[SteveIndy]

not returning evil for evil would have to do with acts of vengeance, retribution, and retaliation. we're not to try to get even with those who do us wrong.

this would have nothing to with defending oneself from harm.

I beg to differ with you. You are an advocate of Augustine's Just War theory which he sucked right out of his thumb. I will grant that the position you take is the popular position, but it is wrong. Those who were closest to Christ and those who lived the first three hundred years of the Church would heartily disagree with you. It was only with Constantine's theologian of choice, Augustine, that men are now taught that killing your enemy is a good thing.

 

[Sammy-San]

Tell that to the God of the OT.

What about situations like these in war-they seem horrible and don't end a war faster. https://www.quora.com/What-are-incidents-where-soldiers-just-refused-to-fight-each-other

Fraternizing along the Pertersburg trench lines became very common. Then one day some officer stuck his nose into it and ordered somebody to start shooting enemies taking their ease in the open … retaliation followed and it got really ugly.

Especially the eternal conseqeuences

 

[W2L]

Sorry folks, i missed most of this thread when my internet was shut off.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

W2L said: ↑
How can we support war? Shouldn't we be praying instead of bombing people?

Is there some reason we can't do both?

Of course one can. Freedom can come at a price.
Even though I entered the military back in '68, because of the draft, I was fortunate enough not to go to Vietnam. But during basic training, you are taught to handle weapons and to kill or be kill. You just followed orders.
The Alamo is a good example, as many of the defenders were religious and they even admired the Mexican attackers, even as they were killing them, as they felt that they were fighting for what they felt was right, and they followed orders from superiors.
Btw, great thread!

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[W2L]

Of course one can. Freedom can come at a price.
Even though I entered the military back in '68, because of the draft, I was fortunate enough not to go to Vietnam. But during basic training, you are taught to handle weapons and to kill or be kill.
The Alamo is a good example, as many of the defenders were religious and they even admired the Mexican attackers, as they were fighting for what they felt was right.

......................

I have a unique belief on war. I dont preach for it nor against it, i put it in Gods hands. I also dont think the Church should be for it or against it. They should be separate (holy) from this world and its wars. God is in control. Why must i pick up an m16 in order to serve the Lord? I believe in pacifism and prayer. I believe in law and justice too, but its for unbelievers to run their world and up to the church to run its. Judgment starts at the house of God too.

 

[HermanNeutics13]

We should only support war if it meets all the criteria for Just War and the vast majority of wars do not.

 

[SteveIndy]

We should only support war if it meets all the criteria for Just War and the vast majority of wars do not.

There is no such thing as "Just War" it was manufactured by Augustine to trick Christians into supporting Constantine's failing government. Worldly Christians and the governments of the past 1800 years perpetuate this fantasy because they don't believe Christ that we are to forgive our enemies and feed and cloth them, turn the other cheek and even die for them if necessary. Christians today will not follow Christ and believe that He must have been mistaken when He said these things. Well, His Apostles did not think He was mistaken and they all followed Him, and for three hundred year Christians followed Christ, untill Augustine created the Just War theory. Christians should have nothing to do with war.