want to talk about OSAS?

Jesus is YHWH said:

Well I believe the security of the believe is taught by Jesus and the Apostles. We sure do not need the teachings of Augustine, Calvin or any other man to believe in the security of the believer in Christ.

Click to expand...

Then you need to address the verses that I put forth to you (that demolishes your view of Soteriology) instead of just stating an opinion or feeling.

Bible Highlighter said:

What do you think Preserance of the Saints is?

Click to expand...

A promise made in Scripture about God's faithfulness towards those who have truly turned to Christ in Faith.

Albion said:

Well then, let's see if logic and/or Scripture DO (or don't) support it.

Click to expand...

I have already shown that OSAS is not supported by Scripture. Verses are taken out of context to prove OSAS. Many other verses cannot be plainly believed at face value.

Albion said:

A promise made in Scripture about God's faithfulness towards those who have truly turned to Christ in Faith.

Click to expand...

And that is one of the five points of Calvinism. It's the P in TULIP.

Bible Highlighter said:

And that is one of the five points of Calvinism. It's the P in TULIP.

Click to expand...

LOL. Just because Calvin read the Bible and agreed with a point that all sorts of other Protestants believed as well as he, it doesn't make those beliefs "Calvinism."

Bible Highlighter said:

While I could be wrong, I lean towards the view that the Elect of God is anyone who has been called to salvation. Those who have not been called or elected to salvation are those in Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 because their names were not written in the book of life since the foundation of the world on the account that they will worship the beast in the future.

Click to expand...

I believe it is God's wish that everyone should turn to him, whereas to my mind the word elect speaks of a special group, elected or chosen for a special task or purpose. Saul was one elected by God and so were the disciples. These and many more stand out from the crowd.

With this in mind, when people say they have been elected, I get alarm bells ringing in my head. If it was for everyone who is saved that would mean I was elected and I do not feel that at all. I am simply one of the sheep who follows the Good Shepherd. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
.

Bible Highlighter said:

What I have learned I have learned from the Lord. I did not learn what I did from some church, or Pastor, or particular denomination. Everything I learned I learned by reading the Scriptures, and comparing Scripture with Scripture and asking the Lord for the understanding.



This would be isolating verses out of context to the rest of the Bible. We are told to repent by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Why would He tell people to repent if it was impossible for them to do so without a regeneration from God. Do you even know that the Scriptures say that we are to repent and we will be converted? (See: Acts of the Apostles 3:19).

Click to expand...

My beliefs come from scripture as well. And faith, repentance are granted/given by God, not the will or decision of man.

John 1:13- Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Phil. 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

2 Tim. 2:24-25, "The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26,31
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh…

hope this helps !!!

1an said:

I believe it is God's wish that everyone should turn to him, whereas to my mind the word elect speaks of a special group, elected or chosen for a special task or purpose.

Click to expand...

That isn't what the term means in Christian theology, however. Yes, I know that to be "elected" can mean, in other contexts, to be selected, but that is not the meaning here.

That's not to say that God does not DO that. He does. He had a "chosen race," for instance. But when we speak of "election," it means chosen to receive saving Faith.

And even that isn't our topic; Eternal Security is the topic.

Albion said:

That isn't what the term means in Christian theology, however. Yes, I know that to be "elected" can mean, in other contexts, to be selected, but that is not the meaning here.

That's not to say that God does not DO that. He does. He had a "chosen race," for instance. But when we speak of "election," it means chosen to receive saving Faith.

And even that isn't our topic; Eternal Security is the topic.

Click to expand...

I do not accept that. Sorry. Saving faith is there for all.

1an said:

I do not accept that. Sorry.

Click to expand...

Okay. The discussion--and the truth of this issue--don't depend upon every last person agreeing to the facts.

Albion said:

Okay. The discussion--and the truth of this issue--don't depend upon every last person agreeing to the facts.

Click to expand...

The word elect is used 17 times in the Bible. In the original languages its root word can be translated as elect, chosen, chosen one, select or other variations (1). The first four uses of the word elect can be found in the book of Isaiah (Isaiah 42:1; Isaiah 45:4; Isaiah 65:9; Isaiah 65:22). We see from the context of these verses that there are several different people being referred to as God’s elect:

• Isaiah 42:1, God’s elect is Jesus Christ.
• Isaiah 45:1, God’s elect are the people of Israel.
• Isaiah 65:9, God’s elect are people that inherit God’s mountains or land.
• Isaiah 65:22, God’s elect are those who inherit the new heavens and a new earth.
In the New Testament, we see the word elect used in a more general sense to indicate people that are favored or chosen by God (Matthew 24:24; Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:22; Mark 13:27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:6; 2 John 1:1; and 2 John 1:13). At the same time, we can see similarities with those in Isaiah:

• The elect can refer to Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:6).
• The elect can refer to the people of Israel (Matthew 24:24; Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:22; Mark 13:27; Luke 18:17).
• The elect can refer to people that inherit the new heavens and the new earth (Matthew 13:27; Revelation 7).
We also see the elect used in a reference that is somewhat different. When looking at the near context, it often is not fully understood. In 1 Peter 1:1-2, we see a description of the elect that gives us deeper meaning:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
In this passage, we see a condition of the election by God. The condition is according to the foreknowledge of God. What is the foreknowledge being mentioned here? The answer is laid out in Romans 8:28-30 as follows:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/who-are-the-elect-in-the-bible/

Let's just get back on topic and discuss OSAS.

Albion said:

Let's just get back on topic and discuss OSAS.

Click to expand...

Free will is a nonsense as well. People are not always saved, people have free will and Adam and Eve were the first people to exercise their free will. Discussion over.
.

1an said:

Free will is a nonsense as well. People are not always saved, people have free will and Adam and Eve were the first people to exercise their free will. Discussion over.
.

Click to expand...

You bet. But I remain interested in the views of members who may be willing to address the topic of our thread.

1an said:

Free will is a nonsense as well. People are not always saved, people have free will and Adam and Eve were the first people to exercise their free will. Discussion over.
.

Click to expand...

and post fall man is described as follows:


1-that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.( Genesis 6:5)
2-It is man who's heart deceitful and corrupt (Jeremiah 17:9),
3-full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
4-loves darkness (John 3:19),
5-does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
6-is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
7-in adam all mankind are sinners, (Romans 5:12)
8-dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
9-by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
10-cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
11-a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
12-Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalms 51:5)

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH said:

and post fall man is described as follows:

1-that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.( Genesis 6:5)
2-It is man who's heart deceitful and corrupt (Jeremiah 17:9),
3-full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
4-loves darkness (John 3:19),
5-does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
6-is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
7-in adam all mankind are sinners, (Romans 5:12)
8-dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
9-by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
10-cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
11-a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
12-Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalms 51:5)

hope this helps !!!

Click to expand...

That is correct, but that describes the sinful nature of humankind rather than freewill.

How do you connect those who cannot understand spiritual things and are dead in sins to eternal security?
.

1an said:

That is correct, but that describes the sinful nature of humankind rather than freewill.

How do you connect those who are dead in sins to eternal security?
.

Click to expand...

so my questions are as follows based upon those scripture references.

if one is a slave to sin, what is he free to choose other than sin ?

if sin is their master in who they are in bondage, how can they escape their slavery to sin ?

if one is dead in sin how can they be made alive and freed from that sin ?

Jesus is YHWH said:

so my questions are as follows based upon those scripture references.

if one is a slave to sin, what is he free to choose other than sin ?

if sin is their master in who they are in bondage, how can they escape their slavery to sin ?

if one is dead in sin how can they be made alive and freed from that sin ?

Click to expand...

If someone is a slave to sin, they are in chains of bondage, the only way to go is to Christ.
Satan is their master and only Christ can free them from their chains.
They and all of us are made alive by the blood of the Lamb.
The trouble is people cannot see their wickedness, they have no desire to change, and as soon as we mention Christ or God, people turn away.

Do you have the answer?
.

1an said:

If someone is a slave to sin, they are in chains of bondage, the only way to go is to Christ.
Satan is their master and only Christ can free them from their chains.
They and all of us are made alive by the blood of the Lamb.
The trouble is people cannot see their wickedness, they have no desire to change, and as soon as we mention Christ or God, people turn away.

Do you have the answer?
.

Click to expand...

thanks for answering only Jesus can set one free from bondage to sin.