What is the Big Secret About the Emmaus Walk? Need Advice!

[Phil G]

View attachment 190098

Hi "Old Guy", I feel a bit of an 'old guy' myself at this stage! The point I make regarding "missing the point" is not that you didn't acknowledge the hurt as real. You did and I respect that very much. But the reason for that hurt is that, despite acknowledgement from the WTE community, nothing is ever done about it. It's as if the reason for the hurt was the person not being 'suited' to WTE rather than a fault of the program itself and the attitudes of WTE members to that program and those who were hurt by it.

While I don't expect you to erase or abate the bad experiences of others, I do expect recognition that at least some of the aspects of the program are anti-Biblical such as total surrender to the weekend experience before even knowing what is going to happen. This is what WTE expect and is stated as such in the Lay Director's talk on the Thursday night.

I know and am grateful that you have posted details about a similar Cursillo type program but that doesn't touch on the reasons for the hurt people have felt. I'm not posting here to be "happy" with any changes to WTE but to point out why people hurt as a result of WTE. If changes were to be made to the WTE program so that people do not get hurt by it, all methods of manipulation would have to stop. It's the manipulation that hurts folks and the responses which are the equivalent of shrugging shoulders and saying people just weren't suited to it by the WTE community adds to the hurt.

There are some WTE communities which claim to respect people's choices as to whether they participate in the weekend in its entirety or decline to take part in some of the program or leave early. But accepting that what they claim is true, they cannot speak for all WTE communities and on that basis I say WTE cannot be trusted. My local WTE community has caused significant hurt to people I know personally. So neither you nor any other member of Cursillo type communities can recommend attendance for WTE based just on your own or any specific group. Other groups behave in a similar manner to my local one. That means there is an inherent problem within WTE.

I did not intend to give the impression that no information is given about the weekend but that information specific to manipulation is withheld. For instance, information about the 'candlelight' experience on the Saturday night is withheld effectively to maximise its impact. If it is mentioned before a person attends, it's mentioned in vague generic type terminology such as a wonderful experience of expression of love.

When looking into cults and the methods they use, one of the primary pieces of advice given by groups helping folks about involvement in cults is never to accept withholding of information. It's a sure sign of manipulation. It's one thing to withhold the ending of a book or movie, or to keep a surprise birthday party secret from the recipient, but this is God's love and blessing which is supposed to be the reason for WTE. It's too serious to play mind games with it. It's not about 'taking a chance'. It's not a case that people are 'different'. That just feeds the 'not suited to it' type answer. It's about respect for the person and doing the Lord's will as opposed to the will of a program.

It's interesting to me that the founder of the Cursillo weekend, Eduardo Bonnin, A Catholic layman, studied, by his own testimony, writings by humanist psychologists like Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers. Both of them were foundational in group psychology therapy and that is what I would see Cursillo as adapting to use in a 'spiritual' type setting.

In fact, if I was to define WTE in one sentence, it would be this: A manipulating weekend, the impact of which is based on psychological methodology.

However the Lord does not need psychological techniques and it is my opinion that Christians should not be using them to point folks to Him. Pointing to the 70-80% who have positive experiences does not prove a program's effectiveness or that it's right to implement it. That just means 20-30% are not having positive experiences. It certainly doesn't warrant 'faith' in any program! I don't believe the Lord is interested in statistics but how we treat His word and His people. It's not about apparent 'results' but about doing the Lord's will regardless of whether it's seen to 'work' or not.

Thank you your graciousness in blessing and I too pray for the Lord's blessing on your life.

 

[Tangible]

Any movement that relies on emotional manipulation to achieve their goals should be given a wide berth. Our God may be a God who hides himself, but his Word is never a secret.

I participated in a very similar event once. It used control, sleep deprivation and emotional manipulation to eventually produce a euphoric feeling, which apparently was the goal.

Aside from a little good advice on communication, conflict resolution, and coping with stresses and loss, there was no real lasting benefit from the event. Additionally, my wife and I were told that our fees would be covered by "scholarships" but afterward were informed that we owed them several hundred dollars.

 

[Old Guy]

Hi "Old Guy", I feel a bit of an 'old guy' myself at this stage! The point I make regarding "missing the point" is not that you didn't acknowledge the hurt as real. You did and I respect that very much. But the reason for that hurt is that, despite acknowledgement from the WTE community, nothing is ever done about it. It's as if the reason for the hurt was the person not being 'suited' to WTE rather than a fault of the program itself and the attitudes of WTE members to that program and those who were hurt by it.

While I don't expect you to erase or abate the bad experiences of others, I do expect recognition that at least some of the aspects of the program are anti-Biblical such as total surrender to the weekend experience before even knowing what is going to happen. This is what WTE expect and is stated as such in the Lay Director's talk on the Thursday night.

I know and am grateful that you have posted details about a similar Cursillo type program but that doesn't touch on the reasons for the hurt people have felt. I'm not posting here to be "happy" with any changes to WTE but to point out why people hurt as a result of WTE. If changes were to be made to the WTE program so that people do not get hurt by it, all methods of manipulation would have to stop. It's the manipulation that hurts folks and the responses which are the equivalent of shrugging shoulders and saying people just weren't suited to it by the WTE community adds to the hurt.

There are some WTE communities which claim to respect people's choices as to whether they participate in the weekend in its entirety or decline to take part in some of the program or leave early. But accepting that what they claim is true, they cannot speak for all WTE communities and on that basis I say WTE cannot be trusted. My local WTE community has caused significant hurt to people I know personally. So neither you nor any other member of Cursillo type communities can recommend attendance for WTE based just on your own or any specific group. Other groups behave in a similar manner to my local one. That means there is an inherent problem within WTE.

I did not intend to give the impression that no information is given about the weekend but that information specific to manipulation is withheld. For instance, information about the 'candlelight' experience on the Saturday night is withheld effectively to maximise its impact. If it is mentioned before a person attends, it's mentioned in vague generic type terminology such as a wonderful experience of expression of love.

When looking into cults and the methods they use, one of the primary pieces of advice given by groups helping folks about involvement in cults is never to accept withholding of information. It's a sure sign of manipulation. It's one thing to withhold the ending of a book or movie, or to keep a surprise birthday party secret from the recipient, but this is God's love and blessing which is supposed to be the reason for WTE. It's too serious to play mind games with it. It's not about 'taking a chance'. It's not a case that people are 'different'. That just feeds the 'not suited to it' type answer. It's about respect for the person and doing the Lord's will as opposed to the will of a program.

It's interesting to me that the founder of the Cursillo weekend, Eduardo Bonnin, A Catholic layman, studied, by his own testimony, writings by humanist psychologists like Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers. Both of them were foundational in group psychology therapy and that is what I would see Cursillo as adapting to use in a 'spiritual' type setting.

In fact, if I was to define WTE in one sentence, it would be this: A manipulating weekend, the impact of which is based on psychological methodology.

However the Lord does not need psychological techniques and it is my opinion that Christians should not be using them to point folks to Him. Pointing to the 70-80% who have positive experiences does not prove a program's effectiveness or that it's right to implement it. That just means 20-30% are not having positive experiences. It certainly doesn't warrant 'faith' in any program! I don't believe the Lord is interested in statistics but how we treat His word and His people. It's not about apparent 'results' but about doing the Lord's will regardless of whether it's seen to 'work' or not.

Thank you your graciousness in blessing and I too pray for the Lord's blessing on your life.

Hi "Old Guy", I feel a bit of an 'old guy' myself at this stage! The point I make regarding "missing the point" is not that you didn't acknowledge the hurt as real. You did and I respect that very much. But the reason for that hurt is that, despite acknowledgement from the WTE community, nothing is ever done about it. It's as if the reason for the hurt was the person not being 'suited' to WTE rather than a fault of the program itself and the attitudes of WTE members to that program and those who were hurt by it.

While I don't expect you to erase or abate the bad experiences of others, I do expect recognition that at least some of the aspects of the program are anti-Biblical such as total surrender to the weekend experience before even knowing what is going to happen. This is what WTE expect and is stated as such in the Lay Director's talk on the Thursday night.

I know and am grateful that you have posted details about a similar Cursillo type program but that doesn't touch on the reasons for the hurt people have felt. I'm not posting here to be "happy" with any changes to WTE but to point out why people hurt as a result of WTE. If changes were to be made to the WTE program so that people do not get hurt by it, all methods of manipulation would have to stop. It's the manipulation that hurts folks and the responses which are the equivalent of shrugging shoulders and saying people just weren't suited to it by the WTE community adds to the hurt.

There are some WTE communities which claim to respect people's choices as to whether they participate in the weekend in its entirety or decline to take part in some of the program or leave early. But accepting that what they claim is true, they cannot speak for all WTE communities and on that basis I say WTE cannot be trusted. My local WTE community has caused significant hurt to people I know personally. So neither you nor any other member of Cursillo type communities can recommend attendance for WTE based just on your own or any specific group. Other groups behave in a similar manner to my local one. That means there is an inherent problem within WTE.

I did not intend to give the impression that no information is given about the weekend but that information specific to manipulation is withheld. For instance, information about the 'candlelight' experience on the Saturday night is withheld effectively to maximise its impact. If it is mentioned before a person attends, it's mentioned in vague generic type terminology such as a wonderful experience of expression of love.

When looking into cults and the methods they use, one of the primary pieces of advice given by groups helping folks about involvement in cults is never to accept withholding of information. It's a sure sign of manipulation. It's one thing to withhold the ending of a book or movie, or to keep a surprise birthday party secret from the recipient, but this is God's love and blessing which is supposed to be the reason for WTE. It's too serious to play mind games with it. It's not about 'taking a chance'. It's not a case that people are 'different'. That just feeds the 'not suited to it' type answer. It's about respect for the person and doing the Lord's will as opposed to the will of a program.

It's interesting to me that the founder of the Cursillo weekend, Eduardo Bonnin, A Catholic layman, studied, by his own testimony, writings by humanist psychologists like Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers. Both of them were foundational in group psychology therapy and that is what I would see Cursillo as adapting to use in a 'spiritual' type setting.

In fact, if I was to define WTE in one sentence, it would be this: A manipulating weekend, the impact of which is based on psychological methodology.

However the Lord does not need psychological techniques and it is my opinion that Christians should not be using them to point folks to Him. Pointing to the 70-80% who have positive experiences does not prove a program's effectiveness or that it's right to implement it. That just means 20-30% are not having positive experiences. It certainly doesn't warrant 'faith' in any program! I don't believe the Lord is interested in statistics but how we treat His word and His people. It's not about apparent 'results' but about doing the Lord's will regardless of whether it's seen to 'work' or not.

Thank you your graciousness in blessing and I too pray for the Lord's blessing on your life.

 

[Phil G]

View attachment 190110

Thank you "Old Guy", your comments are much appreciated by me. I'm grateful you will be on the look out for tactics which could lead to participants' hurt.

Regarding the 'cult' reference, it surprises me a bit, though less now, that Christians immediately jump to Branch Davidians or Scientology as reference points for what a cult is like. Perhaps on that issue, I should use the term 'abusive groups' which people who investigate cults are now using. Abusive groups use very similar methods to WTE during a 3-4 day weekend. People mistakenly think these groups operate as an isolated community, keeping people from their family by only letting them out for group activities. They increasingly don't.

One cult researcher, Louise Samways says that people can become entangled in these groups within 2-3 days of a cloistered environment. Another cult research group, the Cult Information Centre in the UK say it can happen within 3-4 days. It's not the case the participant has to stay in the cloistered environment for any longer than that.

These groups use methods such as removal of watches and phones, not to bury them, but to withhold their use for the period of the weekend. They use the method of 'love bombing', showering the participant with 'love' by giving gifts and letters of affirmation and serving them 'selflessly' throughout the weekend. But these methods are highly manipulative and have the effect of participant dropping their defences. The WTE program, just like an abusive group, keeps folks guessing as to what is coming next. It is manipulation, pure and simple.

These are some of the methods common to WTE and abusive groups. There are more and they are how people get hurt. As I have said I believe God's love and blessing is not to played with. Using these methods are proven by these abusive groups to work for group loyalty - that's not loyalty to the Lord but loyalty to the group. It's why they do it.

And it very much brings into question what exactly is going on at WTE, the Holy Spirit at work or psychological techniques at work? This why I don't see the Holy Spirit at work at WTE - there is too much psychology going on. The Holy Spirit of the Triune God has no need of such tactics. The Biblical mandate for how to preach the gospel is to preach the gospel. No manipulation needed or desired.

Paul 2 Corinthians 4:2 says we renounce the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully. I believe WTE does at least one thing Paul speaks against and that's walking in craftiness. Withholding information about manipulative methods is to me 'walking in craftiness'.

In researching WTE, I came across this statement by John Stott:

“What do we do when people refuse to respond to the gospel? Well, you know what our temptation is. We are tempted to force them to do it. We are tempted to resort to emotional and psychological techniques to manipulate people into believing, or to manipulate the gospel to make it easier to believe.

“But although the temptation to some kind of manipulation is very strong when people don’t believe, Paul specifically renounces that temptation. 2 Corinthians 4:2, ‘Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience.’ You reject manipulation but on the contrary make the plain proclamation of the gospel.”

(John Stott: Problems of Christian Leadership Pages 19-20)

http://www.wtsbooks.com/common/pdf_links/9780830844081.pdf

And this one by Martin Lloyd Jones:

“Is it not the case that some of our methods and approach to evangelism are not beyond suspicion? I feel that we must be concerned about this for three main reasons. The first is that, if our methods are wrong at these points, we open the door widely to…criticism…. Much more important is the fact that such wrong methods are unscriptural, that they bring the gospel into disrepute, and that they allow the man who is outside the Church to scoff. He comments, ‘This is all psychology; you can see it happening at the time; and look what happens afterwards!’ In such a manner the gospel is discredited.

“The most serious reason, however, which should impel us to examine ourselves, is that such tendencies and use of techniques imply a lack of faith. Over-attention to techniques and methods, I would say, is indicative always of a lack of faith in the work of the Holy Spirit.”

He goes on to say:

“…I think we must avoid anything that leads to suspicion that in evangelistic activities we are ‘conditioning’ people in a psychological manner. It is, of course, not the criticism which is important to avoid but the use of any method which God cannot approve. This again suggests that we must avoid any deliberate use of ‘techniques’ as aids to the gospel…. Naturally, if what you desire is to produce psychological results then, of necessity, you will have to employ the proper psychological techniques. But I am arguing that we are not to do so if we really believe in the work of the Holy Spirit. We are to present the truth, trusting in the Holy Spirit to apply it. I would urge, therefore, that on scriptural grounds we must not of set purpose decide to employ techniques. That is to go over onto the side of, and to the use of, psychology.”

(Conversions—Psychological and Spiritual, D.M. Lloyd Jones, Inter-Varsity Press 1959)

Conversions: Psychological, or Spiritual?

These are statements with which I agree completely.

Apologies for the long post and thank you once again for your blessings, patience and graciousness,

Blessings to you and yours.

 

[Catqueen]

Hello all!

I'm here to share my experience with the Walk to Emmaus. I think it will benefit me if I'm able to connect with others here who had the same experience. I also want to warn others who have not participated in the WTE.

First, let me say that for 2 months prior to going, I was so very excited to go!! I counted the time down. Finally, I arrived at the camp in Latham Springs, Texas.
Within a couple of hours of being there I knew it was wrong. In attendance as a Pilgrim was an open lesbian. It was hosted by the Methodist Church, so I should have known. I had left that denomination a many years before due to the acceptance and hiring of homosexual clergy. The Word warns against it, I will not debate this. I am a Fundamentalist Christian and I take every word in Bible literally and seriously.

A list of red flags I personally experienced:

• Windows painted over in the dorms, chapel, and classroom.
• They did not use the Bible for reference or instruction at any time during the 3 days.
• Absolute refusal of staff/clergy to allow any of us to return to our dorms at any time. (I did buck this and went anyway, despite staff/clergy telling me not to.) When I did return to the dorm I was followed inside and they waited on me to leave.
• Once in the classroom, we were not allowed to step outside of the door to go outside. (Again, I bucked this and did it anyway, despite clergy/staff telling me no to.)
• Chanting and repetition of various prayers, song verses, and scriptures. (Catholicism. The possible Beast System, harlot of Babylon spoken of in the Bible. My belief, again I will not debate it.)
• Performing un-Biblical sacraments other than The Lord's Supper and Baptism. Ritualistic Paganism. (Again, Catholicism. The possible Beast System, harlot of Babylon spoken of in the Bible. My belief, again I will not debate it.)
• False doctrine throughout all 15 Talks. For example: the talk regarding a "Means of Grace". Grace is NOT earned and is given freely to us. It is unmerited. Per the teaching at the WTE there are certain steps that can lead to receiving grace.
• Sleep Deprivation. This is a basic tool in "breaking down" a person. It can also open a person up to suggestion.
• Every question I asked regarding any of the above was met with the canned response, "trust me."
• The Saturday evening event. This involved all of the "Pilgrims" walking from the classroom, two-by-two and arm-in-arm, into a large building whose interior is painted black. We were met by many WTE veterans holding lights above their heads, singing the same song over and over again. We were led in a circular pattern around this tightly bunched group several times. As I was standing on the stage with the others I couldn't help but think of a satanic ritual.
• The assistant table leader attempted to force me into performing a skit with the rest of the group. I explained that I wasn't comfortable doing this. She replied, three times, that it is mandatory and I had to do it. At this point I became visibly angry and refused. She backed off at that point.
• The dominant colors representing the Walk to Emmaus are rainbow. Years ago the first thought was of Noah's Ark and God's promise to mankind. It has been hijacked and is more well know as part of the Gay Pride movement. The necklace with the cross we received on the last day was rainbow colored.
• Idolatry of the cross.
• Homosexual clergy, lay members, and Pilgrims.

With all of this being said, I must say that all staff and clergy were very nice. They made sure we had everything we needed and were pleasant to be around.
My pastor and his wife were awesome! I cannot say enough about how I appreciated all they did. They too went out of their way for me. I'll never forget their kindness.

I am so glad I went and do not regret it for one minute. I gleaned valuable information and met some of the most amazing people. There is no way I could have learned how far we as the Body of Christ have fallen had I not attended. I was shocked, amazed, and disappointed at how the majority of my fellow Pilgrims followed and saw nothing wrong with it. Out of approximately 20-25 Pilgrims only 3 of us saw the weekend for what it truly was.

I hope this helps someone in making a decision on the Walk to Emmaus. My take away from this...STAY CLOSE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT!! Have a constant and intense relation with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Deception in the church, false doctrine and compromise of the Word is gaining strength and is a cancer. A major deception is coming and few within the Body of Christ are prepared.

 

[gideon123]

I am surprised - and dismayed - to see negative comments here about the Walk To Emmaus experience.

For me, it was one of the highlights of my Christian experience. And I know many other people who feel the same way. I NEVER experienced one single thing in my experience that was un-Biblical. Not even close.

I would point out to everyone - normally your church Pastor is invited to attend. So if there is any issue with the content of the teachings n Emmaus - then surely your own Pastor can suggest a change? But I saw nothing to complain about, when I went.

Emmaus was a huge blessing - as an experience of the REAL Love and Compassion of Christ. I think that if people are not seeing those fantastic things in the Emmaus experience, then they truly didn't see what happened.

I do feel that the American culture is becoming an incredibly nit-picky and divisive culture. People will argue about the tiniest things, and blow them up into big issues. Is this in the Spirit of the Bible? I just returned from Brazil, where we often met for worship in peoples' homes. Those houses had cracked walls, the paint was missing, food was simple, the streets were broken and dirty, windows were broken, and neighborhood kids sold drugs on the street corners, and you had to watch out for muggers. But the adoration of the local Christians for God was real and sincere.

I share these thoughts from Galations 5:

For the entire Law is fulfilled in keeping this one commandment:
Love thy neighbor as yourself.
If you bite and devour each other,
Watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

These comments are not an attack on any specific post in this thread. They are a general observation about behaviors that I see.

AMEN!
Gideon

 

[Standing Up]

So, what's it cost? And while you're participating, do they sell stuff? When it's over, do they have more for sale?

 

[ContinualSeeker]

I've been considering attending a WTE walk. I go to a non-denominational men's prayer breakfast group and maybe 1/4 of the entire group has gone, and 1/2 of those men at my table. A couple are WTE dinosaurs, participated in their walks long ago and have organized/worked on many walks since. They also openly talk about their 4th day group and that it's main goal is as a personal accountability group. Most 4th day groups are either all men, or all women so it doesn't have to be a wedge if only one spouse has attended.

When the next walk is approaching I'm usually asked to consider attending. They openly discuss the preparations they need to do at the site, including covering windows & clocks. Someone at the breakfast will usually mention the walk as part of the announcements, and include where the walk will take place. I point out these things to address the secrecy concerns that are part of this thread.

Regarding only previous pilgrims being the only ones allowed during the candlelight service, I don't think this is different than any other retreat type group. My wife and I have gone on marriage weekend retreats, and those who work it are previous attendees. If one spouse walks before the other, yes the second one won't be at their service, but I would hope they would be joyful that their spouse has a group of Christian friends that love them and (if they stick with it) will hold them accountable to their faith. When the second spouse walks, I'm sure the first one will be at their service and have the biggest smile in the room.

With all that, why haven't I attended yet? I'm glad you asked...for me my main stumbling block is my wife. She believes all the negative stuff posted about WTE and for my situation it actually would be a wedge in our relationship.

Someday that may change, and to try and ease her concerns I invited one of the above mentioned men to come and answer her questions. He spent over 90 minutes with us and went through the goals of WTE, why things are done the way they are, the process each speaker goes through in preparing their talk and what happened when one speaker went off-book and started speaking about her pet-issue. We even looked at his Friday schedule from a previous walk which yes, was very structured...but he certainly wasn't keeping any secrets.

BTW: After seeing the Friday schedule I can comment on a couple things:
1. Yes it's structured. You can view that negatively and say pilgrims have no free time, or you can view that positively and say I've given them a weekend and they've respected my time enough to not waste any of it.
2. Regarding the claims of sleep deprivation...there was more than 8 hours in between Pilgrims get ready for bed and wake pilgrims Saturday morning. That may be sleep deprivation to a teen-ager, or maybe he deleted the 2:00 am banging of pots and pans...but I don't think that would qualify as sleep deprivation.

Bottom line for me...if you're considering becoming a WTE pilgrim, by all means look into it as much as you'd like, just don't let the internet be your only source. If your sponsor can't answer all your questions I'm sure they know someone else who can. Discuss why you'd want to attend...if it's to get in the cool-Christian group...skip it. If it's to become a better Christian then check it out and see if that's one of the tools you can use to achieve your goal.

 

[Phil G]

I've been considering attending a WTE walk. I go to a non-denominational men's prayer breakfast group and maybe 1/4 of the entire group has gone, and 1/2 of those men at my table. A couple are WTE dinosaurs, participated in their walks long ago and have organized/worked on many walks since. They also openly talk about their 4th day group and that it's main goal is as a personal accountability group. Most 4th day groups are either all men, or all women so it doesn't have to be a wedge if only one spouse has attended.

When the next walk is approaching I'm usually asked to consider attending. They openly discuss the preparations they need to do at the site, including covering windows & clocks. Someone at the breakfast will usually mention the walk as part of the announcements, and include where the walk will take place. I point out these things to address the secrecy concerns that are part of this thread.

Regarding only previous pilgrims being the only ones allowed during the candlelight service, I don't think this is different than any other retreat type group. My wife and I have gone on marriage weekend retreats, and those who work it are previous attendees. If one spouse walks before the other, yes the second one won't be at their service, but I would hope they would be joyful that their spouse has a group of Christian friends that love them and (if they stick with it) will hold them accountable to their faith. When the second spouse walks, I'm sure the first one will be at their service and have the biggest smile in the room.

With all that, why haven't I attended yet? I'm glad you asked...for me my main stumbling block is my wife. She believes all the negative stuff posted about WTE and for my situation it actually would be a wedge in our relationship.

Someday that may change, and to try and ease her concerns I invited one of the above mentioned men to come and answer her questions. He spent over 90 minutes with us and went through the goals of WTE, why things are done the way they are, the process each speaker goes through in preparing their talk and what happened when one speaker went off-book and started speaking about her pet-issue. We even looked at his Friday schedule from a previous walk which yes, was very structured...but he certainly wasn't keeping any secrets.

BTW: After seeing the Friday schedule I can comment on a couple things:
1. Yes it's structured. You can view that negatively and say pilgrims have no free time, or you can view that positively and say I've given them a weekend and they've respected my time enough to not waste any of it.
2. Regarding the claims of sleep deprivation...there was more than 8 hours in between Pilgrims get ready for bed and wake pilgrims Saturday morning. That may be sleep deprivation to a teen-ager, or maybe he deleted the 2:00 am banging of pots and pans...but I don't think that would qualify as sleep deprivation.

Bottom line for me...if you're considering becoming a WTE pilgrim, by all means look into it as much as you'd like, just don't let the internet be your only source. If your sponsor can't answer all your questions I'm sure they know someone else who can. Discuss why you'd want to attend...if it's to get in the cool-Christian group...skip it. If it's to become a better Christian then check it out and see if that's one of the tools you can use to achieve your goal.

I'm a little bit concerned why it would be necessary to try to ease your wife's concerns about WTE and for a WTE member to be the one to do it. It sounds a bit too similar to trying to ease someone's concerns about a cult and for a cult member to do it.

The problem I have with WTE now is exactly the same as I had when I first started to research into it - the large number of cult-like methods used by the group. Each one of these methods taken in isolation certainly seems harmless and can be explained by highlighting the benefits of using it. But there are so many of these methods taking place at the one weekend where people are isolated from their normal environment and have no means to express their concerns to an independent person until they have experienced the whole program.

WTE's own written material states that each participant is an indispensable member of their table group. That in itself places undue influence on the participant where they can feel they are letting down their table if they don't want to participate in certain activities where they feel uncomfortable. WTE members will try to ensure that everyone participates in everything.

Your two observations indicate a bias towards giving WTE the benefit of the doubt whereas I see the negatives straight away.

1. It's not that they are not wasting any time but they are not respecting the fact that a participant may find the program gruelling and tiring and therefore will need to take longer breaks for their own well being. There is no provision for participants to excuse themselves from say candlelight, talks or dying moments. In fact to try to do this, some participants I have talked to found themselves in confrontations with WTE members.

2. To follow on from the first point, the schedule is such that many will find it exhausting and require more rest than others. The strict sleep time combined with strict break times can combine to create excessive tiredness in such participants.

I would say your wife is correct to have misgivings about WTE and should not need anyone to try to ease them. If she doesn't like what she sees from internet forums such as this, then that is healthy. Both those who see WTE as positively and negatively are well represented and if the answers of those positive about WTE are not convincing to someone, then that is their assessment. To actively try to convince them against their own assessment seems manipulative to me.

 

[ContinualSeeker]

Who else would I want to answer my wife's questions other than the person I know who knows the most about it? What would be the purpose in having her ask questions to somebody with less knowledge?

I agree with your assessment that I have a bias towards giving WTE the benefit of the doubt. However I recognize that my bias comes from personal knowledge and relationships with dozens of men who have completed their walk and are now "walking the walk" of a Christian life.

I'm also confused why you would call my trying to have my wife's questions answered by a friend is somehow manipulative, but your trying to convince total strangers online is not.

 

[Phil G]

Who else would I want to answer my wife's questions other than the person I know who knows the most about it? What would be the purpose in having her ask questions to somebody with less knowledge?

I agree with your assessment that I have a bias towards giving WTE the benefit of the doubt. However I recognize that my bias comes from personal knowledge and relationships with dozens of men who have completed their walk and are now "walking the walk" of a Christian life.

I'm also confused why you would call my trying to have my wife's questions answered by a friend is somehow manipulative, but your trying to convince total strangers online is not.

An independent person who works in the area of cults and has first hand knowledge of their methods and how and why they work would be who I would recommend as a starting point about WTE.

I'm not trying to convince total strangers about anything. I state my case and those who read it are free to assess it in any way they like. I have talked and discussed WTE with a number of attendees with both positive and negative experiences and I have gotten hold of a lot of WTE published materials, including two full schedules of the lay director's manual, in order to assess the movement.

And I might add you have posted on this forum where you will get responses from total strangers one way or another.

I just found your post a bit strange when you describe your wife as a 'stumbling block' for you to attend WTE and then used someone who will give all the positives to try to ease her concerns. There are many on internet forums who have attended and who will tell a very different story because they have been deeply hurt by the group.

It's not about someone with more or less knowledge. For instance I have less knowledge about the Moonies than a Moonie member but I can advise better if someone is considering attending because the member will only highlight positives and how misunderstood the movement is. I would be deeply concerned if someone went to the Moonies on that basis.

 

[ContinualSeeker]

I agree I posted on a public discussion, but I didn't accuse anyone of being manipulative.

I think you're stuck in the abstract...when would you ever go to the trouble of finding an outside expert when you have a personal friend that you trust?

In fact my original post suggested both using the internet along with real live people.

 

[Phil G]

I agree I posted on a public discussion, but I didn't accuse anyone of being manipulative.

I think you're stuck in the abstract...when would you ever go to the trouble of finding an outside expert when you have a personal friend that you trust?

In fact my original post suggested both using the internet along with real live people.

Yes indeed you have suggested using both the internet along with real live people but those on the internet are real live people too! Perhaps try meeting up with some who have had negative experiences.

I think you are a bit defensive about the 'manipulation' part. Using someone to only give the positives when there are just as legitimate negatives out there is to me manipulation.

All the folks I have talked to who have had negative experiences with WTE have attended because they trusted someone close to them and found that trust to be betrayed. That's why it has hurt so much.

 

[gideon123]

I think we need a totally new worship experience. Apparently some people are not happy with Emmaus.

Let's call the new experience ... "Mediterranean Cruise".

It will go something like this ...

We put all the worship attendees on a sailing boat in a harbor. Then we wait until a savage storm blows in from the ocean ... only then do we put out to sea. All the people are sick to death and start throwing up over the side of the boat. But wait! We stay in the storm and we dont turn back. We go out into deep water. The waves are so big that they are threatening to break the ship apart. So the attendees have to tie ropes around the ship, just to hold it together. Nobody eats for 14 days. The wind howls and the sun never shines. Then we point the boat at a beach, give everybody a piece of bread, hand them a wooden plank for floatation, and force them to jump overboard into the water. To survive, they must flounder through the heavy surf. When they arrive on the beach, shivering and freezing cold, they can greet one another and sing songs of praise.

How about that - as a replacement for WTE???

Those events happened to the Apostle Paul on his way to Rome. Please read the Book of Acts. And through the whole epic journey, he kept faith, prayed constantly, and stayed in touch with the Holy Spirit.

American Christians have turned into the biggest bunch of babies. I can hardly believe the complaints directed at WTE.

Get real. And get real Fairh!

Blessings!!

 

[Phil G]

I think we need a totally new worship experience. It will go something like this ...

We put the worship attendees on a boat in a port. Then we wait until a savage storm blows in ftom the ocean ... and we put out to sea. All the people are throwing up over the side of the boat. But wait! We stay in the storm and we dont turn back. The waves are so big that they are threatening to break the ship apart. So the followers have to tie ropes around the ship, just to hold it together. Nobody eats for 14 days. Then we point the boat at a beach, give everybody a piece of bread to eat, then make them jump into the water and flounder through the heavy surf. But when they arrive on the beach ... they can greet one another and sing songs of praise.

How about that - as a replacement for WTE???

Those events happened to the Apostle Paul. And through the whole thing, he kept fairh, prayed, and stayed in touch with the Holy Spirit.

American Christians have turned into the biggest bunch of babies. I can hardly believe the complaints directed at WTE.

Get real. And get real Fairh!

Blessings!!

Sadly that is a problem in WTE - nobody believes those who have been hurt. Real faith is one where the Lord God is trusted over and above anyone or any program. We are told to test everything, even what happens within the church. Paul warns in Acts that there will be those who are trusted within the church who will draw people away. I don't see why you are reacting so negatively to people who take this scripture to heart.

Those in parts of the world where they are persecuted, tortured and killed for their faith have no need for programs like WTE. Only the reality of the Lord and His word keep them close to Him. Yes the church in western countries have become like babies and I say WTE is a symptom of that.