Vox Day's demolition of Darwin's Theory of Evolution

[The Barbarian]

I don't need to judge it, the ID, creation et. al. scientists have already done so and found that natural processes do not create new information.

Every new mutation in a population adds information. Would you like me to show you, again?

 

[Job 33:6]

No, that is not science - that is life...every single thing that you have cited here can be done and is every day by people who are not conducting scientific research at all.

That is not science - it is life.

Congratulations. You understand why science works. Because it rests upon everyday observations of events that occur in our lives.

Kinematics is nothing more but a description of what an object does while in motion. But it is also a foundational concept of physics. Kinematics are understood by everyday objects observed in everyday life and how they interact.

And this is just one example.

Science is foundationally built upon observations made in everyday life.

 

[Job 33:6]

"Every word is a made up word, that's how they exist... someone made them up. There is nothing with the definition of information as understood within the ID camp that contradicts other widely understood concepts of information, nor do I see it clashing in any way with Claude Shannon's definition." Noble mouse

Are you saying that IDs understanding of information, is equivelant to Claude Shannon's definition? If so, then we can proceed.

 

[RC Tent]

It's taken from the Discovery Institute's database of "Scientists Who Doubt Darwin." There was some controversy over a number of scientists on the list, who did not want to be on it, and did not doubt Darwin. The Institute seems to have corrected that, and their data is, I believe, accurate at this time.

That is not an attempt to establish how many scientists do question Darwin though, it is just a list of some that do.

 

[Job 33:6]

That is not an attempt to establish how many scientists do question Darwin though, it is just a list of some that do.

Section 5: Evolution, Climate Change and Other Issues

Here is a poll putting the numbers around 97% in favor.

Depending on how you look at lists and polls and what fields of science you count, you're looking at 97%+. If it were biologists only, probably 99+%.

If there were a poll on how old the earth were, the same could be said for geologists who recognize an old earth. I've met and know hundreds of geologists and I have never met a young earth geologist, or engineer for that matter. Or any young earth scientist of the hundreds I've worked with, including biologists, archaeologists, hydrogeologists, geophysicists, structural geologists, petrologists, etc.

 

[RC Tent]

Congratulations. You understand why science works. Because it rests upon everyday observations of events that occur in our lives.

God is observable every day of our lives, again you fail to make a point about science that in any way distinguishes it from God.

You do not appear to understand how science works, because so far you have not managed to differentiate it from anything else - you appear to be just using the word "science" to depict everything and anything.

I can touch and experience and hear poetry - it is not science. I can do it every day. It is still not science.

Science is the study of the physical or natural (as opposed to supernatural) aspects of existence.

 

[The Barbarian]

That is not an attempt to establish how many scientists do question Darwin though, it is just a list of some that do.

Like "Project Steve." So apples to apples.

 

[Job 33:6]

God is observable every day of our lives, again you fail to make a point about science that in any way distinguishes it from God.

You do not appear to understand how science works, because so far you have not managed to differentiate it from anything else - you appear to be just using the word "science" to depict everything and anything.

I can touch and experience and hear poetry - it is not science. I can do it every day. It is still not science.

Science is the study of the physical or natural (as opposed to supernatural) aspects of existence.

You can touch poetry? You can hear someone's voice who is reading poetry. That's an observation, and sound waves are something that we can test and confirm the existance of, scientifically and in everyday life.

Please do explain how it is that you touch poetry.

Aside from that, the existance of poetry and God, do not conflict with our observations of physical reality. Young earth creationism does.

You would be surprised how much science has to be ignored and/or denied in order to be a young earth Creationists. But this is not the case for people who believe in something like poetry or God.

 

[The Barbarian]

That is not an attempt to establish how many scientists do question Darwin though, it is just a list of some that do.

Likewise, "Project Steve" is not an attempt to establish how many biologists named "Steve" acknowledge evolutionary theory, it is just a list of some that do.

The point is, that there are many times more of them than there are who doubt Darwin. This is why the bandwagon argument is such a loser for IDers.

 

[RC Tent]

You would be surprised how much science has to be ignored and/or denied in order to be a young earth Creationists. But this is not the case for people who believe in something like poetry or God.

You can read my mind, and thereby tell what would surprise me? You have just claimed you can anyway. It is possible to "believe" in poetry? - I could argue that it is in a way, but I would love to see how you think it is done. Feel free to explain what you think "believing in poetry" involves.

 

[RC Tent]

You can touch poetry?

Braille

 

[Job 33:6]

Braille

Braille is Braille, it isn't necessarily poetry. Braille usually is made of some kind of plastic or metal. Which is observable.

Nice try though.

Braille isn't something that subjectively exists either. It simply is what it is. Such plastics are studied and researched, as well as metals. There are even plastics scientists who study and research the many kinds of plastics. Especially in this age of 3D printing.

The science behind plastics are fundamentally grounded in our observation of plastics in everyday life. Also, the existance of Braille doesn't conflict with the science of plastics.

 

[Job 33:6]

You can read my mind, and thereby tell what would surprise me? You have just claimed you can anyway. It is possible to "believe" in poetry? - I could argue that it is in a way, but I would love to see how you think it is done. Feel free to explain what you think "believing in poetry" involves.

Let's look at a definition of art that I've pulled from the net:

the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture.

The "form" can have a presence in reality, such as in the form of Braille. This isn't a subjective matter, Braille simply is as it is. A statue is made of a material that simply is as it is. same with a painting.

Poetry, could be written in braille or on paper. These are physically real entities that can objectively exist in observable ways.

The expression, the poetry itself, constructed with use of ones imagination, might read "it is the east and Juliet is the sun". This would be the subjective part that isn't actually based in physical reality. And immediately we recognize the subjective nature of it. Juliet is the sun? What does that mean? People unfamiliar with the popular play Romeo and juliet could quite easily be confused by such a statement.

And so the belief comes with the perception of what the expression means.

And people do not perform scientific tests on whether or not Juliet is the sun. Rather its meaning is purely in the mind and is up for interpretation in different ways. It is an imaginary construct.

Now Juliet may literally be the sun. There may be a literal truth behind the words that resulted in their writing. But the words themselves, are just words. Words on paper or words on braille. The rest is in our imagination and could differ from person to person.

 

[The Barbarian]

Braille is Braille, it isn't necessarily poetry. Braille usually is made of some kind of plastic or metal. Which is observable.

Creationism depends on conflating the medium and the signal.

 

[Job 33:6]

Creationism depends on conflating the medium and the signal.

What do you mean?

Are you saying that they suggest that braille is poetry?

 

[RC Tent]

Braille is Braille, it isn't necessarily poetry. Braille usually is made of some kind of plastic or metal. Which is observable.

Read poem in braille = that is touching poetry.

Conflict with the science of plastics - that wasn't even in question.

Poetry can be touched - literally - it is when it is read in braille.

Poetry is observable either way - in printed form it is definitely possible to observe poetry.

 

[Job 33:6]

Read poem in braille = that is touching poetry.

Conflict with the science of plastics - that wasn't even in question.

Poetry can be touched - literally - it is when it is read in braille.

Poetry is observable either way - in printed form it is definitely possible to observe poetry.

No, you're not touching poetry, you're touching braille. Braille does not equal poetry. And if you remove the braille, then there is nothing left to touch. Because the poetry being expressed without braille, cannot be touched.

When you look at braille (or physically touch braille), what you're seeing is Braille, it isn't poetry.

Poetry is an expression that can be made using braille, but it is not braille itself. And when you touch braille, you are not also touching poetry.

And if poetry is not expressed with use of Braille or similar media, it cannot be experienced through touch.

 

[RC Tent]

Words on paper or words on braille. The rest is in our imagination and could differ from person to person.

Yes, and rocks and fossils are extant whatever we believe about them.

So is God.

Science is the study of the physical - not the "real".

What scientists conclude from their research requires human minds - it depends on our imagination - that is our ability to conceive of things. Without the ability to absorb and process the information with our minds there is no science - people decided to study the physical properties of reality - people developed the framework from which science explores the physical, and people influence what science will be explored and what conclusions to draw. It is all in our minds, developed by our minds, and driven by the desires of human minds.

How much each person understands of God can differ from person to person.
How much each person understands of science can differ from person to person.
So, as you have depicted things, there is no difference between the properties of science and those of God.

 

[RC Tent]

Poetry is an expression that can be made using braille, but it is not braille itself. And when you touch braille, you are not also touching poetry.

Look letters exist - in any writing system, they are real, they are not "really ink" - what makes them letters is not down to subjective perception. They are not "objectively ink" and "subjectively letters" - language, just like science, is a result of human imagination - we conceive it in our minds, we developed it, with our minds - it does not exist without our minds. The physical realm (probably) exists without our minds - but science is the study of the physical realm. The study of a thing is not the thing itself.

 

[Job 33:6]

The braille which someone reads, is not limited to their imagination. Anyone who can read braille, will come to the same conclusion about the shape of the braille.

The poetry of the braille however, is confined to the imagination, as poetry is a subjective expression.

"Juliet is the sun" is not a physically real entity, it is an expression conjured up in the mind. It is simply expressed using physically real braille.