Voters want Bernie - the DNC does not.

[grasping the after wind]

I was speaking of the attitudes of many Americans. Those programs are a legacy of the New Deal and Great Society, when Americans had somewhat different attitudes towards the government's role in society.

Excuse me if I don't consider you to be the authoritative source for American attitudes of the 20th and 21st century.

US has a society safety net, however it is quite thin and patchy and it is heavily politicized, with one party dedicated to seemingly dismantling it, and there's not alot of consensus as to whether its really a good thing or not.

In Europe, social democracy and socialism are not considered radical ideas, they have been part of the notion of responsible government for generations.

Is it really true that Europeans do not see socialism( real socialism in which the government owns the means of production and all are assured equal outcomes despite unequal contributions as opposed to capitalist based, democratically elected, socially active government. ) a radical idea. If so, explain to me why are there no longer any actual socialist countries in Europe and why is the EU not socialist in any real way. The right often claims things are socialist when they are not in order to get people to oppose them and the left often claims things are socialist when they are not in order to get people to think socialism is something it is not.

 

[Dryskale]

Is it really true that Europeans do not see socialism( real socialism in which the government owns the means of production and all are assured equal outcomes despite unequal contributions as opposed to capitalist based, democratically elected, socially active government. ) a radical idea. If so, explain to me why are there no longer any actual socialist countries in Europe and why is the EU not socialist in any real way. The right often claims things are socialist when they are not in order to get people to oppose them and the left often claims things are socialist when they are not in order to get people to think socialism is something it is not.

I find your question loaded, mainly because socialism is an umbrella term for varied types of left wing economic models. The USSR and China are examples if centralized economies, where there are also socialist Market models where the works own the means of productions through a cooperative or syndicate. Most European countries use a combination of capital based markets and social ownership.

Socialism isn't the same as nationalization.

 

[solid_core]

The most common model throughout the European union is social democracy:

"Social democracy is a political, social and economic philosophy that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented economy."

Social democracy - Wikipedia

Its not socialism in the sense of centralized economy or nonexistence of private companies. Its a free liberal market with social interventions from the state. And its democratically elected by people.

 

[mark46]

The health care "debate" is NOT about the very poor (who are on Medicaid) or the 1%. The debate is about the vast majority in between these two groups.

We have free public health care for those that have a low income. Why would we pay for health care for those that can afford to pay for themselves? Should the 1% have free health care? Don't they already have enough stuff?

 

[mark46]

Unless all the government and private data is incorrect, you are indeed an anomaly. Look at the percentage of college graduates and the amount of their debt. Also, my guess is that your debt is much, much less than most.

a couple points.

For reference only. I am part of the middle class (51,000 a year).

we have six children, three went through college, we did not touch savings or “pension”, I worked a pt job, they worked pt jobs and two of the three graduated debt free. The other three are working jobs that do not require a college education. (One makes over 100,000 a year)

second, I own my home, I do not pay rent.

and I am not an anomaly,

 

[mark46]

I agree with your definition and comments.

I would note that the US market is LESS free than that of many of the countries of Europe. Our government support of business in considerable.
======

That being said, the US populace, as a whole, is not ready to move to government run health care (and childcare), and is not ready to pay the transition costs of moving everyone to a single payer system. And, in addition, "Medicare for All" is far from the most desired model. At very least, the system must be "Medicare for all who want it". Folks need to be able to opt in or out. And it is this desire of the voter that will make any of the single-payer plans even more unworkable.

The most common model throughout the European union is social democracy:

"Social democracy is a political, social and economic philosophy that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented economy."

Social democracy - Wikipedia

Its not socialism in the sense of centralized economy or nonexistence of private companies. Its a free liberal market with social interventions from the state. And its democratically elected by people.

 

[dogs4thewin]

We have no student debts, education is free, we have affordable health insurance. Not sure what you mean by socialism level taxation, but I manage quite fine.

Yes, I do not have three cars and huge wooden house like an average American, but I do not care. I do not have to be afraid to study or to go to a dentist, I do not have to be afraid that I loose my job or that I will be sick. Its about our priorities.

College is not free that is the type of loan at issue.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I thought you do not like immigrants these days

I am planning to visit when I will have enough money for some hotel accomodation to stay for a month or so.

If they do it the right way most people have no problem with immigrants.

 

[hislegacy]

Unless all the government and private data is incorrect, you are indeed an anomaly. Look at the percentage of college graduates and the amount of their debt. Also, my guess is that your debt is much, much less than most.

no, not at all. Just the approach to it.

from the date of the first child’s birth we put 10% of our income into savings. Each of our kids started working part time during high school and worked through their college years. The first two years is free through our community college.

so by the time the first was through his first two years, we had 20 years in savings and then because of our income level there were a couple grants available.

They didn’t go to Ivy League colleges, spent their spring, Christmas and summer breaks working full times instead of partying on the beach. I worked a part time job.

by the time they were out of college for a year, it was paid in full.

I learned it from my dad.

 

[hislegacy]

As to the topic of the thread, my apologies

John Kerry overheard discussing possible 2020 bid amid concern of 'Sanders taking down the Democratic Party'

 

[hislegacy]

Seems like one political party doesn’t like a top contender and that contender gets elected

while the othe party doesn’t like a top contender and plots to remove him so he can’t run. For the second time.

 

[FireDragon76]

Excuse me if I don't consider you to be the authoritative source for American attitudes of the 20th and 21st century.



Is it really true that Europeans do not see socialism( real socialism in which the government owns the means of production and all are assured equal outcomes despite unequal contributions as opposed to capitalist based, democratically elected, socially active government. ) a radical idea. If so, explain to me why are there no longer any actual socialist countries in Europe and why is the EU not socialist in any real way. The right often claims things are socialist when they are not in order to get people to oppose them and the left often claims things are socialist when they are not in order to get people to think socialism is something it is not.

There are still socialist parties in many European countries and they participate in the political process. Also, socialist principles are part of many of those countries unwritten constitutions.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That’s one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever read here. You genuinely believe people choose to be troubled and poor? Wow..

My (ex) wife wasn't happy unless she was miserable, and most of her decisions caused her trouble. She was raised in a home where everyone was at each other's throat, and nothing they did financially worked out for them. So yes, there are those.

 

[Basil the Great]

I am pulling for Bernie to win the Iowa Caucuses.

 

[solid_core]

I am pulling for Bernie to win the Iowa Caucuses.

Hmm are there many of my slavic brothers in Iowa? Now I know where to live if I will ever visit the USA

 

[Albion]

Hmm are there many of my slavic brothers in Iowa? Now I know where to live if I will ever visit the USA

Actually yes. There is a famous presence of Czech immigrants in the Cedar Rapids area going back many years, some restaurants featuring the food you'd expect, and even a museum dealing with Czech and Slovak history and migrations.

NCSML Home

 

[grasping the after wind]

I find your question loaded, mainly because socialism is an umbrella term for varied types of left wing economic models. The USSR and China are examples if centralized economies, where there are also socialist Market models where the works own the means of productions through a cooperative or syndicate. Most European countries use a combination of capital based markets and social ownership.

Socialism isn't the same as nationalization.

The term "socialist market" is a self contradictory phrase. There is no market in a socialist economy, there is no individual choice only top/ down mandates. In a truly socialist state with a socialist economy, the state decides what is to be produced and how much is to be produced as the state sees fit to advance the common good. There is no competition, therefore no market. There is no need to compare prices, negotiate deals or think about quality differences as all products will be produced according to state specifications and priced according to state mandate. Supply and demand no longer apply as the state mandates the supply and the amount of demand is therefore irrelevant . The wisdom of those in power in the state ( they are after all experts in their field) as to what the citizens require replaces demand as the driver of supply decisions. Demand does not drive up prices as prices are fixed so rather than increasing prices due to increased demand increased shortages are the result of increased demand. This is of course not because the people in power in the state were mistaken but because some individual citizens are irrational in wanting more than they need.

I am told that the above is not a radical idea for Europeans. I wish to know if that is the consensus opinion of those that are knowledgeable about European attitudes toward socialism. If Europeans do not consider socialism to be what I described, then we are not speaking of the same thing when we are speaking of socialism. That being the case I do not know what it is that Europeans would be talking about when they are said to consider the idea they have referred to as socialism to not be radical. So to discuss the subject with each other while holding completely different definitions of the term would be like talking about football. I would be seeing in my mind men with helmets and shoulder pads scoring by getting into the end zone , while they would be seeing men in shorts scoring by kicking the ball into the goal. It becomes quite confusing and not conducive to discussion when people do not use the same word to mean the same thing.

 

[grasping the after wind]

There are still socialist parties in many European countries and they participate in the political process. Also, socialist principles are part of many of those countries unwritten constitutions.

Unwritten constitutions are not worth the paper they weren't written on.

 

[solid_core]

Actually yes. There is a famous presence of Czech immigrants in the Cedar Rapids area going back many years, some restaurants featuring the food you'd expect, and even a museum dealing with Czech and Slovak history and migrations.

NCSML Home

Interesting, thanks.