VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Douggg]

Before Margaret MacDonald's vision, absolutely no Christian ever had any such interpretation or belief.

Darby wrote out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 years prior to Margaret MacDonald's 1830 vision.

Also Margaret MacDonald's vision was of a post tribulation nature.

Margaret MacDonald (visionary) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Darby wrote out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 years prior to Margaret MacDonald's 1830 vision.

Also Margaret MacDonald's vision was of a post tribulation nature.

Margaret MacDonald (visionary) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you.

There is no rapture of all dead in Christ and living in Christ (1 Th 4:16-17) in the Trib or 2A (2nd Advent).

 

[Ceallaigh]

Darby wrote out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 years prior to Margaret MacDonald's 1830 vision.

Also Margaret MacDonald's vision was of a post tribulation nature.

Margaret MacDonald (visionary) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The account I've always heard is that Darby got the idea from MacDonald. But even if that's not the case and it originated with Darby 3 years earlier, it's still something that was never a doctrine before then.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Thank you.

There is no rapture of all dead in Christ and living in Christ (1 Th 4:16-17) in the Trib or 2A (2nd Advent).

He's just saying Darby came up with it on his own. In 1827. What I'm wondering is why it was unheard of in Christian doctrine prior to that.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Well what you wrote was quite interesting, that in other words, the idea of the Rapture was based on a dream or a vision had by the child that Darby was caring for at the time?

Does the Orthodox Church have any sort of rapture doctrine?

 

[The Liturgist]

Does the Orthodox Church have any sort of rapture doctrine?

I don’t know for sure since the word rapture isn’t used in our eschatology. Perhaps if you could clarify what you mean by a rapture doctrine?

I do know that we have nothing like premillenial dispensationalism or the views dramatized in Left Behind.

Well the Orthodox churches officially reject Chiliasm on the basis of the Nicene Creed as revised in 381 (many people are unaware of this fact, but the line “Whose Kingdom shall have no end” was expressly inserted to refute the Chiliast position, since this had been emphasized by the Apollinarians, who believed in a flawed Christology in which our Lord was said to have a human body but a divine mind, and meanwhile the mainstream church, which had previously permitted Chiliasm, decided that it was erroneous).

But we do believe in the Resurrection of the Dead, which will be followed by the Last Judgement. I will write more on this if you wish in another thread but right now something just got in my right eye and it is tearing up severely, so thank you for the interesting question, and God bless you, and please pray for me, as I was in considerable pain before, and now that my right eye is killing me its quite unpleasant.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Sorry but I don't see the relevance or need for this question. Why do people talk about it.
What will be will be. Just be ready.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Sorry but I don't see the relevance or need for this question. Why do people talk about it.
What will be will be. Just be ready.

Yes. At any second we might be standing before the Lord by way of cardiac arrest or umpteen other sudden death scenarios.

Luke 12:20

 

[keras]

Over 100 years ago, a teaching was promoted, saying that before any disasters would happen, God will take His people up to live in heaven and they would return with Him for the Millennium.
This teaching is not found in the Bible, as Dr John Walvoord and Dr Thomas Ice, rapture proponents, did actually admit. Scriptures like John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess. 4:15-17 are touted as rapture proofs, but they pertain to the end of the Millennium and at the Return of Jesus respectively and in no way do they, or any other verses actually say anyone will go to live in heaven.
Jesus refutes that false idea in John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

What we Christians are all exhorted to do when disaster strikes, is to pray for the strength and God given protection to survive that Day, 1 Cor. 10:11-13, 1 Peter 1:7 and to be found worthy to live in the holy Land, as the Christian Overcomers for God: literally the Israelite peoples of God. 1 Peter 1:8-10

Remember this truth: all the promises of God to Israel now applies to Christians. Galatians 3:26-29, 6:14-16
Jesus came to extend salvation to all who will accept it and now we are His people, bought by Jesus’ blood, chosen by Him and destined to be with Him on earth forever. Isaiah 49:8, Revelation 5:9-

 

[Douggg]

Jesus refutes that false idea in John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

keras, if I might make a suggestion. When you quote something from 1989 REB bible, annotate that the quote comes from it.

In context from the kjv....

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Up to that point in time. In Revelation 4:1 John was called up to heaven. And came back to report all that he was shown.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John used the term door, but I think what he saw and went through was a portal opening up. It is what I think will happen in the rapture/resurrection event, Christ to greet the raptured/resurrected saints as they pass through the portal.

 

[keras]

In Revelation 4:1 John was called up to heaven. And came back to report all that he was shown.

How is that a proof of the Church being raptured to live in heaven?
Most of the bible Prophets saw visions and Ezekiel 1:1-3, actually saw God on His Throne in heaven. While he stood by the river Kebar.
So, from that precedent, I dismiss the idea that John, in his mortal body, went to heaven, Revelation 4:2 confirms that John was in the Spirit when he received the Revelation visions.
There is a total failure on the part of the rapture believers to provide any real proofs of that theory. It is a lie and will never happen.

The whole idea of the 'rapture to heaven' is a contradiction of what we are told about our destiny and our future role on earth.
If these truths of the end times are hidden, it is because people have chosen to believe fables, as 2 Timothy 4:3-4 says they will.
Satan is so happy that so many have been fooled by the rapture deception. It leaves people clueless about what actually will happen and when tribulations do come, they will be shocked and may lose their faith.
The test by fire; 1 Peter 4:12, will be the fulfilment of Jesus with His winnowing fork. Matthew 3:12, and many will fail, to their Eternal loss.

OK Douggg.
The adherence by you and many, to the KJV, is a severe hindrance to understanding the true meanings of scripture, especially the Prophetic Word.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

I vote "yes" because the Bible has 1-2 prophets who were lifted up and away (raptured- from the Septuagint Latin Bible translation of the Greek word harpazo) in the old testament (Isa.26:19), then there's Jesus who ascended to heaven along with the OT saints who resurrected when Jesus was (Mat.27:52-53)

When Jesus was transfigured two OT men stood with him. One had died, the other had been taken to heaven alive. They together represent the dead whose spirits go to heaven, and the living who shall go to heaven. Which Paul speaks of in 1Thes.4:13-17 which is the resurrection-glorification-rapture of the saints.

So there is definitely a pattern established.

The apostle Paul teaches that the b.o.c. will be caught up, and taken out of the way prior to the lawless one being revealed. (2Thes.2:1,3,7) And Revelation echoes that (Rev.3:7-8,10; 4:1, 6:1)

There are other verses but since Paul says that two or three supports are sufficient to establish then I've given enough.

The early church fathers believed it centuries before MacDonald spoke of it. Darby took it from the Bible, not from MacDonald. Scripture is authority, not prophecy.

Those who say that Darby got it from MacDonald are attempting to discredit rapture altogether or to discredit pre-trib rapture.. to imply that it's concocted by men and not a biblical doctrine. In response to pre-trib proponents saying that no rapture doctrine, and/or post-trib rapture is not biblical doctrine.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Before Margaret MacDonald's vision, absolutely no Christian ever had any such interpretation or belief.

In strict accordance with your beliefs, or else; God!!!!!!

Why do you want to go to heaven? Isn't that rather an escapist desire?
People who believe in the rapture, should really consider their motives and whether going to live in heaven is such a good idea for we humans.
Also; those rapture believers should be very careful to not teach anything not accurately and clearly in the scriptures. There will be penalties for false teachers.

I can prove you’re the false teacher. You deny what is written in 1 Th 4:17. All the dead in Christ and all the living in Christ are raptured into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

John 14:2-3 (NIV): My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

That’s the purpose of us being taken up to be with Jesus. We will be taken to Heaven and be shown our own mansion.

 

[Douggg]

How is that a proof of the Church being raptured to live in heaven?

Revelation 4:1 prefigures the calling up to heaven, passing through a portal, a door, that will appear as it did to John.

When Jesus returns to this earth, the raptured/resurrected saints will accompany Him back to earth.

So, from that precedent, I dismiss the idea that John, in his mortal body, went to heaven, Revelation 4:2 confirms that John was in the Spirit when he received the Revelation visions.

John saying he was immediately in the spirit represents the translation that the living in Christ will immediately experience, changed in the twinkling of an eye, when they hear Jesus saying with a shout, "Come up hither".

There is a total failure on the part of the rapture believers to provide any real proofs of that theory. It is a lie and will never happen.

I have been through it with you. John 14:1-4. Jesus went to heaven, where he has prepared a place for those who believe in him. And Jesus is the way to heaven. But you could not bear to answer my question of "the way to where?" in Jesus's statement in verse 4.

Being cynical and calling the rapture to heaven a lie - goes against what Jesus said. I think you will agree that there are consequences to what we say and believe.

 

[keras]

I can prove you’re the false teacher. You deny what is written in 1 Th 4:17. All the dead in Christ and all the living in Christ are raptured into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

You have just shown how you add to scripture to support the false rapture idea. There is no 'all' in 1 Thess 4:16-17

1 Th 4:16-17 prove we are changed into our glorified bodies. We are then raptured into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

That scripture does not say such unmitigated rubbish at all. Or any scripture.
Nowhere does the Bible say people are changed into spiritual bodies when Jesus Returns, or goes to heaven. You are a deceived believer of fables.

You should consider your own status when we all will stand before God in Judgment. It seems that He will not be so forgiving of those who promote wrong theories and add to His Word.

 

[keras]

Being cynical and calling the rapture to heaven a lie - goes against what Jesus said.

What does Jesus say on the subject of people going to heaven?

Jesus said:
1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Revelation 7.

3/ John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
That they can cry out at times, does not mean they are alive as they are just souls, kept under the Altar.

All scripture is as Written in the Revised English Bible.

John saying he was immediately in the spirit represents the translation that the living in Christ will immediately experience, changed in the twinkling of an eye, when they hear Jesus saying with a shout, "Come up hither".

This is complete pretentious nonsense.
There is nothing in Revelation which supports these beliefs, You still mistakenly place 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 before the final Judgment, after the Millennium. The proof it will be fulfilled then, is how Death will be no more. Rev 21:4

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You have just shown how you add to scripture to support the false rapture idea. There is no 'all' in 1 Thess 4:16-17

That scripture does not say such unmitigated rubbish at all. Or any scripture.
Nowhere does the Bible say people are changed into spiritual bodies when Jesus Returns, or goes to heaven. You are a deceived believer of fables.

You should consider your own status when we all will stand before God in Judgment. It seems that He will not be so forgiving of those who promote wrong theories and add to His Word.

1 Cor 15:52 (NIV): in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The dead in Christ and we who are alive in Christ will be instantly changed into our glorified bodies, at the last trumpet.

Paul wrote 1 Cor 15:52 long before the book of Revelation. The last trumpet is not the 7th trumpet. The purpose of “the last trumpet” is to rapture those in Christ, into Heaven (John 14:2-3) where we will meet our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, in all His glory as God Almighty.

1 Th 4:16-17 (NIV): 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The last trumpet is in 1 Th 4:16 wherein it says “the dead in Christ will rise first.” That means ALL of the dead in Christ.

In 1 Th 4:17 it says “we who are still alive.” That means ALL who are alive in Christ.

In 1 Th 4:17, Jesus is unseen by the wicked world below, as heavenly clouds obstruct the view of all unbelievers who dwell on the earth.

1 Th 4:16-17 present a context that is found nowhere in the Trib and 2A. Those verses therefore represent the pre-Trib rapture as the next prophesied event in the Bible.

 

[Douggg]

Nowhere does the Bible say people are changed into spiritual bodies when Jesus Returns, or goes to heaven.

keras, from the scriptures, define what kind of bodies the resurrected dead in Christ and translated living in Christ will have in the rapture/resurrection event.

Regarding the living, are only Christians who are outdoors at the time be takened ? Since we can't pass through walls in our current bodies.

 

[Douggg]

keras, in your scenario, you have the raptured living in Christ and resurrected dead in Christ taken to another place in the world to avoid persecution by the beast.

My question to you is - why do the dead in Christ need to be resurrected and taken to another place in the world ? They are dead bodily already, in graves, what would they have to fear from the beast ?

 

[keras]

The dead in Christ and we who are alive in Christ will be instantly changed into our glorified bodies, at the last trumpet.

Which must be at the final Judgment, after the Millennium.
The proof that 1 Cor 15:50-56, happens at the Great White throne Judgment, is in Rev 21:4; only then is Death no more.

1 Th 4:16-17 present a context that is found nowhere in the Trib and 2A. Those verses therefore represent the pre-Trib rapture as the next prophesied event in the Bible.

It is a Prophecy about the glorious Return of Jesus, to reign on earth for the next thousand years. Gathered to Him, as per Matthew 24:31
It is ridiculous to assume that anyone goes to heaven at that time, or any time!

define what kind of bodies the resurrected dead in Christ and translated living in Christ will have in the rapture/resurrection event.

Mortal, normal living people. They will only be the martyrs killed during the last 1260 days before Jesus Returns.
Their bodies will have decomposed; at least their heads cut off, so God will need to remake them; which I have no doubt He is capable of doing.
They can die again, although people will live for much longer in the Millennium. But Revelation 20:6 says their second death has no power over them.
Meaning - because their names are Written in the Book of Life, immortality is assured for them.

My question to you is - why do the dead in Christ need to be resurrected and taken to another place in the world ? They are dead bodily already, in graves, what would they have to fear from the beast ?

The beast kills them. Or his minions do.
They are resurrected when Jesus Returns and become His co-rulers and priests. Rev 20:6b

Why don't all those deceived by the rapture to heaven theory, read their Bibles properly?
I am astounded at the incapability of some to understand even the simplest scripture about the end time things to happen.