Voluntary poverty?

[GrowingSmaller]

Is it a virtue, is there anything to be said for it, or not?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Poverty isnt a Christian virtue. Jesus said trust first the Kingdom and needs will be met

 

[GrowingSmaller]

So the story about Henry 8th's remorse for the execution of Becket, when he found out hE had been weafing bug ridden sackcloth, is irrelevant? Or has our undestanding moven on since then?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

"Blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom of God" seems pretty straightforward to me. "Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?" (James 2:5) also tends to be fairly direct.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CryptoLutheran]

So the story about Henry 8th's remorse for the execution of Becket, when he found out hE had been weafing bug ridden sackcloth, is irrelevant? Or has our undestanding moven on since then?

We've gotten wealthier as a ["Christian"] society, it's comfortable and pleasant and we don't like the notion it could be eroding at our very soul.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Candide]

I think there is much merit to voluntary material poverty.

Jesus wasn't joking when he told the Rich Young Ruler to sell his stuff and come follow him. More often than not, my material wealth gets in the way of me following Jesus...I do not see why it would be bad to get rid of your material wealth.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

What about some of these millionaire pastors? And the prosperity gospel?

 

[Bernie02]

I hope it is a virtue; I seem to have inadvertantly volunteered for a healthy share of it during a couple episodes of my life....

 

[John Jay]

Is it a virtue, is there anything to be said for it, or not?

There is nothing virtuous about poverty. Poverty is never portrayed as a good or desirable thing in the Bible.

 

[Uphill Battle]

We've gotten wealthier as a ["Christian"] society, it's comfortable and pleasant and we don't like the notion it could be eroding at our very soul.

-CryptoLutheran

Do I need to be the first jump in and point out the inconsistency of someone extolling poverty as virtue via the internet on their computer?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Do I need to be the first jump in and point out the inconsistency of someone extolling poverty as virtue via the internet on their computer?

Maybe, if I were extolling poverty as an absolute requirement for being a Christian, or being saved, or something of the like.

If you'd like to make the argument that as Christians we should be, at the very least, suspicious of our creature comforts and that there is an ethical hypocrisy in speaking of God's identification with the poor and God's warnings about wealth all the while living within relative or certain affluence then that would be fair, I would agree with it and freely admit my own struggles of conscience over it.

But insofar as what I've actually said I haven't made the case that absolute poverty is required of the Christian, but I have said that biblically speaking yes God blesses the poor and to intentionally forsake all of our wealth for the sake of Christ and the poor is virtuous.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[wayseer]

Is it a virtue, is there anything to be said for it, or not?

Jesus lived in poverty.

I live in poverty although I am not necessarily suggestion I am therefore somehow Christlike.

Voluntary poverty is an act of renunciation. Unless one is willing to give up something substantial then the world will forever have some call on you.

Poverty is not destitution - their is a difference.

Yes - I have a computer and a phone and live in a house and not under a bridge.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Jesus lived in poverty.

Did He? What makes you say that? He certainly gave up material possessions, but I see no evidence He lacked basics.

Poverty is not destitution - their is a difference.

Yes - I have a computer and a phone and live in a house and not under a bridge.

Great points!

 

[BondiHarry]

"Blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom of God" seems pretty straightforward to me

However that is not what Jesus said. "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kngdom of God" is. It's amazing how deleting just two words changes the meaning of God's word. Or even one word ... there once was a Bible that was put out which that left out the word 'not' and said instead 'thou shalt commit adultery'.

If you'd like to make the argument that as Christians we should be, at the very least, suspicious of our creature comforts and that there is an ethical hypocrisy in speaking of God's identification with the poor and God's warnings about wealth all the while living within relative or certain affluence then that would be fair, I would agree with it and freely admit my own struggles of conscience over it.

The man of God is not consumed with the baubles of the world (flashiest car, biggest tv screen etc.) but one man's 'creature comforts' is another man's time and labor saving devices like washing machines and clothes dryers. We are also told "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" (1 Timothy 5:8) and "you shall remember the LORD your God: for it is he that gives you power to get wealth" (Deuteronomy 8:18). Wealth that distracts us from serving God is a danger but poverty for povertys sake is not Biblical ... Proverbs makes clear that those who labor as God commands will enjoy the fruits of their labor and not be in want.

But insofar as what I've actually said I haven't made the case that absolute poverty is required of the Christian, but I have said that biblically speaking yes God blesses the poor and to intentionally forsake all of our wealth for the sake of Christ and the poor is virtuous

All wealth really belongs to God and we are but stewards of that wealth but to intentionally forsake all of our wealth for the sake of the poor is not necessarily virtuous at all ... "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor ... and have not love, it profiteth me nothing" (1 Corinthians 13:3).

 

[CryptoLutheran]

However that is not what Jesus said. "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kngdom of God" is. It's amazing how deleting just two words changes the meaning of God's word. Or even one word ... there once was a Bible that was put out which that left out the word 'not' and said instead 'thou shalt commit adultery'.

I was quoting Luke 6, not Matthew 5, though I admit I got the phrasing a bit wrong:

"And raising his eyes toward his disciples he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours." - Luke 6:20

The man of God is not consumed with the baubles of the world (flashiest car, biggest tv screen etc.) but one man's 'creature comforts' is another man's time and labor saving devices like washing machines and clothes dryers. We are also told "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" (1 Timothy 5:8) and "you shall remember the LORD your God: for it is he that gives you power to get wealth" (Deuteronomy 8:18). Wealth that distracts us from serving God is a danger but poverty for povertys sake is not Biblical ... Proverbs makes clear that those who labor as God commands will enjoy the fruits of their labor and not be in want.

And should a person forsake those things on account of Christ and for the needy, putting forth their energies to prayer, work and putting food in the bellies of the hungry, alleviating suffering of one's neighbors, or in other various means committing oneself to the poor and identifying with them in their poverty, that is still virtuous.

All wealth really belongs to God and we are but stewards of that wealth but to intentionally forsake all of our wealth for the sake of the poor is not necessarily virtuous at all ... "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor ... and have not love, it profiteth me nothing" (1 Corinthians 13:3).

And if one bestows all their goods to feed the poor and does have love, it profits much. Matthew 25:40

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Wasnt early Christianity influenced by the Stoics or some other Greek school of thought, insofar as the idea of 'virtuous poverty' was concerned?

 

[Candide]

I can not believe that somebody would argue that voluntary poverty is anything but good. Are we reading the same Bible? Jesus commands his disciples to go from city to city, carrying nothing with them but a robe and a staff. Sounds pretty poor to me. Jesus told the rich young ruler "sell all your possessions and follow me". Again, voluntary poverty. Jesus tells us that we must "lose our lives to find them". No reason to think that doesn't include our material lives.

I know many rich Christians, and many poor Christians. Both are great people, though the rich Christians do have more hurdles and more to get hung up on in the way of following Christ recklessly. This does not mean they don't do it...they just have more to lose. I would rather make life easier on myself and just be poor.

 

[John Jay]

I can not believe that somebody would argue that voluntary poverty is anything but good.

Where are we ever told that poverty is a good thing or that we are to seek poverty? If poverty is a good thing, then why is wealth portrayed in the Bible as a blessing from God?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Rich man eye of needle?

 

[Candide]

Those passages I quote where Jesus tells his disciples to "take nothing but a cloak and a staff" on their missionary journeys? That fact that Jesus himself did nothing to accrue worldly wealth? The Rich young ruler? Need I quote more?