Virgin?

[Doctor.Sphinx]

A certain type of female sanitary products can eliminate the hymen I think. I don't think all women actually are born with them. I'm off to google.

EDIT
A study (although I think it was unethical to do the study with young girls included) found hymens still intact in a lot of sexually active women, pregnant ones too. They found not intact hymens (a dent in the cleft like in active people) in virgins, though granted at a lower rate.

WHO also say that it is not a reliable indicator.

It does not seem to be a reliable indicator of virginity in many sources.

Some people are born without one, others have a scanty barely there one. They are very different person to person.

Learn something new all the time lol

Lol. Thanks for the detailed information - certainly more than I found.

It seems that in a number of places, virginity tests are still based on the presence (or absence) of the hymen. I always thought the hymen's purpose was providing proof of virginity, and everywhere I read seemed to say it didn't have a function (and reassurance of virginity wouldn't seem to be a useful function to evolutionists).

I always thought Joan of Arc's enemies wouldn't have been satisfied with her virginity test if the check was as unreliable as people say. I guess it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things, but I certainly have learned some interesting new information.

 

[Thee Librarian]

If a woman has played around with a man and done everything sexual but has not been penetrated by him, is she still a virgin?

Only in a technical sense. But any woman can reclaim her virginity in spirit and can hold herself pure for any reason, just as a man can renew his spiritual sex life from any point. It's not easy, and God has always stressed commitment to only one person. Any sex events outside of a marriage commitment causes some mental harm.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"For reasons that remain unclear, female babies are born with membranes surrounding their vaginal openings. Most hymens are doughnut shaped and open in the center. Newborns' hymens tend to be prominent and thick. But as the years pass, most hymenal tissue thins and the opening widens. During childhood most hymenal tissue wears away as a result of washing, walking, athletics, self-exploration, and masturbation, though little bits may remain around the vaginal opening, particularly in the area closest to the anus (hymenal tags)."

"The Truth: The hymen is not stretched across the vagina waiting to be battered down by invading penises like the door of a Viking stronghold. Despite the fact that hymen means "membrane" in Latin, it's not a solid membrane at all. It's more accurately referred to as a "vaginal corona": a ring of tissue around the inside of the vagina shaped more like a doughnut. The tissues are highly elastic and can be thick or thin, and any penetration, from tampons to fingering, can disrupt them."The Way We Talk About Hymens Is Completely Wrong"

"
The Truth: The pervasive idea that the "presence" of a hymen determines a woman's virginity is nonsense for many reasons: One is that hymens can tear through any insertion in the vagina, from masturbation to tampons, and even exercise has been known to tear them too. Hymens actually start to thin, tear, and develop holes when you're very small: it's just natural wearing away. Second, the hymen doesn't actually go anywhere once it's torn: it doesn't pop or vanish, it just sticks around, being gradually worn away. Third, the conception of virginity this myth is based on only applies to a very specific definition of sexual contact — penetration.

This is a particularly important point because we believe that doctors (or husbands) can simply look at a woman or girl's vagina and determine whether she's a virgin or not. It's a lot trickier than that. Contrary to belief, the hymen is no proof that you've definitely had sex, and the idea that they can act like this is deeply harmful."

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

This is a particularly important point because we believe that doctors (or husbands) can simply look at a woman or girl's vagina and determine whether she's a virgin or not. It's a lot trickier than that. Contrary to belief, the hymen is no proof that you've definitely had sex, and the idea that they can act like this is deeply harmful."

I'm not really questioning that part (i.e. the absence of a hymen doesn't necessarily imply a woman is not a virgin), but if the hymen is intact, isn't that still good evidence she is a virgin? I know posts above from people who would know far more about this subject than me state that a woman can have relations with the hymen only stretched, but I find it a little hard to believe that man has used the presence of the hymen for thousands of years as proof of virginity, and yet been wrong all along...?

Also, I don't believe God made anything without a purpose, and if the hymen wasn't to be used for proof of virginity, what is it for?

 

[Sam91]

I'm not really questioning that part (i.e. the absence of a hymen doesn't necessarily imply a woman is not a virgin), but if the hymen is intact, isn't that still good evidence she is a virgin? I know posts above from people who would know far more about this subject than me state that a woman can have relations with the hymen only stretched, but I find it a little hard to believe that man has used the presence of the hymen for thousands of years as proof of virginity, and yet been wrong all along...?

Also, I don't believe God made anything without a purpose, and if the hymen wasn't to be used for proof of virginity, what is it for?

I think it is to keep from dirt from getting inside the body before the lady produces more fluid to keep insides clean which happens in the beginnings of puberty before menstruation occurs.

Fancy explaining these things to a professional

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I'm not really questioning that part (i.e. the absence of a hymen doesn't necessarily imply a woman is not a virgin), but if the hymen is intact, isn't that still good evidence she is a virgin? I know posts above from people who would know far more about this subject than me state that a woman can have relations with the hymen only stretched, but I find it a little hard to believe that man has used the presence of the hymen for thousands of years as proof of virginity, and yet been wrong all along...?

Also, I don't believe God made anything without a purpose, and if the hymen wasn't to be used for proof of virginity, what is it for?

It being still there really only shows that She has not given Birth. The hymen is shaped like a donuts and stretches. And, it can wear out from non-sexual means. The older tribes among Israel did use it as proof of being a virgin.

Deuteronomy 22:13-30 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Marriage Laws
13 “A man might marry a woman and have sexual relations with her. Then he might decide that he does not like her. 14 He might accuse her of doing wrong and say, ‘I married this woman, but when we had sexual relations, I found she was not a virgin.’ By saying this against her, people might think bad things about her. 15 If this happens, the girl’s father and mother must bring the proof that the girl was a virgin to the town elders at the meeting place of the town. 16 The girl’s father must say to the leaders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man to be his wife, but now he does not want her. 17 This man accused my daughter of doing wrong and said, “I did not find the proof that your daughter is a virgin.” But here is the proof that my daughter was a virgin.’ Then they should show the cloth to the town leaders. 18 Then the leaders of that town must take that man and punish him. 19 They must fine him 40 ounces of silver. They will give the money to the girl’s father because her husband brought shame to an Israelite girl. And the girl will continue to be the man’s wife. He cannot divorce her for the rest of his life.

20 “But what the husband said about his wife might be true. The wife’s parents might not have the proof that she was a virgin. If this happens, 21 the town leaders must bring the girl to the door of her father’s house. Then the men of the town must kill her with stones, because she has done a shameful thing in Israel. She has acted like a prostitute in her father’s house. You must remove this evil from your group.

Sexual Sins
22 “If a man is found having sexual relations with another man’s wife, both of them must die—the woman and the man who had sexual relations with her. You must remove this evil from Israel.

23 “A man might meet a virgin girl engaged to another man. He might have sexual relations with her. If this happens in the city, 24 you must bring them both out to the public place near the gate of that city, and you must kill them with stones. You must kill the man, because he used another man’s wife for sexual sin. And you must kill the girl, because she was in the city but did not call for help. You must remove this evil from your people.

25 “But if a man finds an engaged girl out in the field and forces her to have sexual relations with him, only the man must die. 26 You must do nothing to the girl. She did nothing that deserves the punishment of death. This is like someone attacking their neighbor and killing them. 27 The man found the engaged girl out in the field and attacked her. Maybe she called for help, but there was no one to help her.

28 “A man might find a virgin girl who is not engaged and force her to have sexual relations with him. If other people see this happen, 29 he must pay the girl’s father 20 ounces of silver.[c] And the girl will become the man’s wife, because he used her for sexual sin. He cannot divorce her all his life.

30 “A man must not bring shame to his father by marrying his father’s wife.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not really questioning that part (i.e. the absence of a hymen doesn't necessarily imply a woman is not a virgin), but if the hymen is intact, isn't that still good evidence she is a virgin? I know posts above from people who would know far more about this subject than me state that a woman can have relations with the hymen only stretched, but I find it a little hard to believe that man has used the presence of the hymen for thousands of years as proof of virginity, and yet been wrong all along...?

Also, I don't believe God made anything without a purpose, and if the hymen wasn't to be used for proof of virginity, what is it for?

I think the point is that it's hard to be sure that its "intact."

From what I can find on a quick google it seems the hymen is a result of the developmental process by which we have a separate vagina and urinal tract (they start out as one thing - the urogenital sinus - in the foetus and then separate). It seems to be part of the package deal of mammalian reproduction.

Since other mammals have it, it seems improbable to me that its sole purpose is to allow prurient patriarchal males a gold standard of "virginity."

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It is really not evidence of being a virgin because it can stretch.

Article: Virginity in Ancient Mesopotamia
"Israelite women most probably did, if we follow the accepted opinion that the cloth with the bride’s signs of virginity, her be tûlim, in Deuteronomy 22 is the infamous bloody cloth known so well in later Near Eastern and other cultures.29 Let it be said at the outset that the only Mesopotamian text dealing in detail with bridal linens is without blood or stain.30" see page 94 of http://krieger2.jhu.edu/neareast/pdf/jcooper/jc Virginity.pdf

As you can see this test is very common in the surrounding cultures.
In the text itself Deut 22:13-30 I do not see a thus says the Lord.
I think in my opinion(that is all it is an opinion) that this test worked its way into the bible from the cultures they lived among.

Another item that slipped in is:

Numbers 5
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Tell the Israelites this: A man’s wife might be unfaithful to him. 13 She might have sexual relations with another man and hide this from her husband. And there might not be anyone to tell him that his wife committed this sin. Her husband might never know about the wrong thing she did, and she might not tell her husband about her sin. 14 But the husband might begin to think that his wife sinned against him, whether she has or not. He might become jealous. He might begin to believe that she is not pure and true to him. 15 If that happens, he must take his wife to the priest. The husband must also take an offering of 8 cups of barley flour. He must not pour oil or incense on the barley flour. This barley flour is a grain offering to the Lord that is given because the husband is jealous. This offering will show that he thinks his wife has been unfaithful to him.

16 “The priest will take the woman before the Lord and make her stand there.17 Then he will take some special water and put it in a clay jar. He will put some dirt from the floor of the Holy Tent into the water. 18 He will force the woman to stand before the Lord. Then he will loosen her hair and put the grain offering in her hand. This is the barley flour that her husband gave because he was jealous. At the same time, he will hold the clay jar of special water. This is the special water that can bring trouble to the woman.

19 “Then the priest will make the woman promise to tell the truth and say to her: ‘If you have not slept with another man, and if you have not sinned against your husband while you were married to him, then this water that causes trouble will not hurt you. 20 But if you have sinned against your husband—if you had sexual relations with a man who is not your husband—then you are not pure. 21 If that is true, you will have much trouble when you drink this special water. You will not be able to have any children. And if you are pregnant now, your baby will die. And the Lord will cause your people to speak evil of you and curse you.’

“Then the priest must tell the woman to make an oath. She must agree for the Lord to cause these things to happen to her if she lies. 22 The priest must say, ‘You must drink this water that causes trouble. If you have sinned, you will not be able to have children. Any baby you have will die before it is born.’ And the woman should say, ‘I agree to do as you say.’

23 “The priest should write these warnings on a scroll. Then he should wash the words off into the water. 24 Then the woman must drink the water that brings trouble. This water will enter her and, if she is guilty, it will cause her much suffering.

25 “Then the priest will take the grain offering from her (the offering for jealousy) and raise it before the Lord. Then he will carry it to the altar. 26 The priest will fill his hands with some of the grain and put it on the altar and let it burn there. After that he will tell the woman to drink the water. 27 If the woman has sinned against her husband, the water will bring her trouble. The water will go into her body and cause her much suffering. Any baby that is in her will die before it is born, and she will never be able to have children. All the people will turn against her. 28 But if the woman has not sinned against her husband and she is pure, the priest will say that she is not guilty. Then she will be normal and able to have children.

29 “So this is the law about jealousy. This is what you should do when a woman sins against her husband while she is married to him. 30 Or if the man becomes jealous and thinks his wife has sinned against him, this is what the man should do. The priest must tell her to stand before the Lord. Then the priest will do all these things. This is the law. 31 The husband will not be guilty of doing anything wrong, but the woman will suffer if she has sinned.”

Ask Yourself, how come the Men are not subjected to tests for proving sexual faithfulness?

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

It being still there really only shows that She has not given Birth. The hymen is shaped like a donuts and stretches. And, it can wear out from non-sexual means. The older tribes among Israel did use it as proof of being a virgin.

My reading of the text was that the parents (i.e. father) keep the cloth as evidence that there was blood spilled, and therefore the hymen was intact (and the girl therefore a virgin). Which one may not necessarily be able to prove or disprove via visual examination at a later time.

Ask Yourself, how come the Men are not subjected to tests for proving sexual faithfulness?

Because they don't have hymens?

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

I think it is to keep from dirt from getting inside the body before the lady produces more fluid to keep insides clean which happens in the beginnings of puberty before menstruation occurs.

Fancy explaining these things to a professional

I apologise for my ignorance. In Ancient Egypt, the mystery schools didn't offer gynaecology.

 

[Sam91]

I apologise for my ignorance. In Ancient Egypt, the mystery schools didn't offer gynaecology.

Well this is just my supposition, not fact. I think it makes sense though.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

My reading of the text was that the parents (i.e. father) keep the cloth as evidence that there was blood spilled, and therefore the hymen was intact (and the girl therefore a virgin). Which one may not necessarily be able to prove or disprove via visual examination at a later time.

Because they don't have hymens?

lol loved that answer.

The question about men was related to ordeal.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Read to here