Views on Hell and the problem with punishment

[Archaeopteryx]

You're distorting my words... But okay... By denying God you are choosing to go to hell, period.

You said, "God would be unfair and unjust to force us to follow Him so He gave us free will." The threat of Hell is coercive; it is an attempt to force people to obey or else be tortured forever. If someone points a gun to your head and threatens to shoot you unless you love them, it would be asinine to claim that the gunman isn't forcing you to do anything and that, technically, you would be to blame if they shot you.

 

[Wryetui]

According to what Kristen has stated, God must respect everyone's wishes, so if one wishes to go to Heaven, one will go to Heaven. God cannot send anyone to Hell unless that person is willing to go there. If you disagree with this, perhaps you should take it up with her?



I don't "willingly deny" or "hate" God. I don't believe in gods.

That's an offense to God. You willingly deny God.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That's an offense to God. You willingly deny God.

No, I don't willingly deny God. I am unconvinced that there is a God. Do you understand the difference? Why would that be offensive anyway?

 

[Kristin E]

You said, "God would be unfair and unjust to force us to follow Him so He gave us free will." The threat of Hell is coercive; it is an attempt to force people to obey or else be tortured forever. If someone points a gun to your head and threatens to shoot you unless you love them, it would be asinine to claim that the gunman isn't forcing you to do anything and that, technically, you would be to blame if they shot you.

No, God gave man the free will to choose.
Whether you like that or not, that's how it is, you only have two choices - hell or heaven.
There is no such thing as a middle ground, you cannot sit on the fence when it comes to God.

How does that even make sense to equate God with a wild lunatic gunman?
Did God make you choose the devil? NO. God gave YOU the free will to choose Him or the devil.


God does NOT even come close to a gunman for one reason, He does NOT kill unbelievers period.
There are TWO Kingdoms, Heaven or HELL, it's up to each individual to choose either of the two.

The blame would lay solely on the person if they chose hell over heaven.
I think you're thinking that God is a set of "religious" rules, you need to instead see it as a relationship.
I won't sit here and argue, it seems you are angry with God.
So yea I don't buy into the whole facade that you're an atheist as your replies say otherwise.

EDIT: In the end why would it matter if in fact you don't believe? Why does the notion of a hell bother you so much? Could it be because you know deep down who you're serving???

 

[Kristin E]

Good for you bud. I have a strong sense of family and friends. But I'm at heart a solitary creature.



Oooh what a threat.



So is it a choice or not?

It is a choice, there are two choices, heaven or hell.
God even says in HIS Word that one has to eventually make a stand.

Joshua 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[Skavau]

No, God gave man the free will to choose.
Whether you like that or not, that's how it is, you only have two choices - hell or heaven.

Belief is not a choice. I do not believe in God. I do not believe in heaven or a hell. They are fictional constructs to me. I cannot believe in God, heaven or hell until I am convinced that they are true. I no more reject Christianity out of choice than you reject Thor or Zeus or Islam.

There is no such thing as a middle ground, you cannot sit on the fence when it comes to God.

This isn't about "sitting on the fence". It is about being honest, following your conclusions.

An entity that demands you follow him or oppose him is not an entity worth following. That is the language of division and hatred.

How does that even make sense to equate God with a wild lunatic gunman

In the analogy God is holding a gun to all of humanity. He demands we follow him or he'll pull the trigger.

Did God make you choose the devil? NO. God gave YOU the free will to choose Him or the devil.

I do not believe that a devil exists.

God does NOT even come close to a gunman for one reason, He does NOT kill unbelievers period.

No he just tortures them after they've died.

The blame would lay solely on the person if they chose hell over heaven.
I think you're thinking that God is a set of "religious" rules, you need to instead see it as a relationship.
I won't sit here and argue, it seems you are angry with God.
So yea I don't buy into the whole facade that you're an atheist as your replies say otherwise.

Your premise is false. Belief is not a choice. Belief is a conclusion effected by exposure to specific evidence and argumentation and one's own interpretation of them.

 

[Kristin E]

Belief is not a choice. I do not believe in God. I do not believe in heaven or a hell. They are fictional constructs to me. I cannot believe in God, heaven or hell until I am convinced that they are true. I no more reject Christianity out of choice than you reject Thor or Zeus or Islam.


This isn't about "sitting on the fence". It is about being honest, following your conclusions.

An entity that demands you follow him or oppose him is not an entity worth following. That is the language of division and hatred.


In the analogy God is holding a gun to all of humanity. He demands we follow him or he'll pull the trigger.


I do not believe that a devil exists.


No he just tortures them after they've died.


Your premise is false. Belief is not a choice. Belief is a conclusion effected by exposure to specific evidence and argumentation and one's own interpretation of them.

It's not that you DON'T believe, it's that you HATE God!

An entity that demands you follow him or oppose him is not an entity worth following. That is the language of division and hatred.

Right there says it all, why would it even matter if you say you don't believe, AND that hell does not exist...
To even say that God is not worthy of following because you don't like the only two options you are given, shows you DO believe in Him.
It's pretty evident you just choose to NOT worship or follow Him. The devil even believes, and he trembles.

 

[Skavau]

It's not that you DON'T believe, it's that you HATE God!

I don't believe in a God, but if God was as you described I would not serve that God.

Right there says it all, why would it even matter if you say you don't believe, AND that hell does not exist...

I would have respect for a more humanitarian, inclusive and secular construct of God. I wouldn't serve and worship any entity. That's grovelling, masochistic and an insult to being free.

Traditionally any organisation or individual that has demanded affiliation or objection has been divisive and authoritarian. We do not respect that kind of attitude amongst ourselves - why should any self-appointed supernatural dictator be different?

To even say that God is not worthy of following because you don't like the only two options you are given, shows you DO believe in Him.

No it doesn't. It shows my ability to engage in a hypothetical.

It's pretty evident you just choose to NOT worship or follow Him. The devil even believes, and he trembles.

I don't believe in any God. I would say the exact same thing to you if you were coming from an Islamic perspective.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, God gave man the free will to choose.
Whether you like that or not, that's how it is, you only have two choices - hell or heaven.
There is no such thing as a middle ground, you cannot sit on the fence when it comes to God.

How does that even make sense to equate God with a wild lunatic gunman?
Did God make you choose the devil? NO. God gave YOU the free will to choose Him or the devil.

The comparison makes sense because in both situations one party is exercising force over another. The threat of Hell renders dubious the claim that God wants a loving relationship with humanity. It suggests that he wants sycophants.

God does NOT even come close to a gunman for one reason, He does NOT kill unbelievers period.

No, instead he sends them to an eternal torture chamber. How is that an improvement?

The blame would lay solely on the person if they chose hell over heaven.

This is as asinine as claiming that the gunman's victim is to blame for the shooting because, technically, it could have been prevented if the victim complied with the gunman's demands.

I think you're thinking that God is a set of "religious" rules, you need to instead see it as a relationship.

What sort of relationship is based on fear? The relationship between a tyrant and his subjects.

I won't sit here and argue, it seems you are angry with God.
So yea I don't buy into the whole facade that you're an atheist as your replies say otherwise.

No, I don't believe in God. I'm addressing your claims about him and about the afterlife.

EDIT: In the end why would it matter if in fact you don't believe? Why does the notion of a hell bother you so much? Could it be because you know deep down who you're serving???

You're the one who believes this stuff. I'm addressing your claims. But there is another reason I'm interested in this topic as well. In my view, the doctrine of Hell is the most obscene invention of religion and I find it deplorable that this is taught to children as the ultimate model of justice.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It's not that you DON'T believe, it's that you HATE God!



Right there says it all, why would it even matter if you say you don't believe, AND that hell does not exist...

Why would it matter? Because people like you think it is good to poison the minds of children with this obscenity so as to terrify them into believing your doctrines. Because your religion is based on fear, not love. And it's worthwhile exposing it for what it is.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

No, God gave man the free will to choose.
Whether you like that or not, that's how it is, you only have two choices - hell or heaven.
There is no such thing as a middle ground, you cannot sit on the fence when it comes to God.

"You have free will... to choose only A or B"

Wow what freedom that is. I choose maybe G.

How does that even make sense to equate God with a wild lunatic gunman?

Because he seems to want to pull the trigger at any given moment. He's basically saying "Do whatever you want, just don't make me mad or I'll shoot."

Did God make you choose the devil? NO. God gave YOU the free will to choose Him or the devil.

Again with this whole "free will to choose" thing with a lame dichotomy.

God does NOT even come close to a gunman for one reason, He does NOT kill unbelievers period.

He tortures them. Gunmen can torture people so it's still an apt comparison

There are TWO Kingdoms, Heaven or HELL, it's up to each individual to choose either of the two.

Um. Next point. I'm done with this circle.

The blame would lay solely on the person if they chose hell over heaven.

What if I chose Heaven?

I think you're thinking that God is a set of "religious" rules, you need to instead see it as a relationship.

An abusive patriarchal relationship with a masochistic and insecure alpha male. Who insist I degrade myself in every form of mental masochism and exalt him only.

I've had better enemies.

I won't sit here and argue, it seems you are angry with God.

Who are you talking to?

So yea I don't buy into the whole facade that you're an atheist as your replies say otherwise.

You are misguided.

EDIT: In the end why would it matter if in fact you don't believe? Why does the notion of a hell bother you so much? Could it be because you know deep down who you're serving???

We're in a thread whose topic just happened to be hell. And I have grievance with the claim that such place exist. If this was a topic about Gitmo I'd also express my grievances with such a place. It's called a forum sweetheart.

It's not that you DON'T believe, it's that you HATE God!

I don't hate Voldermort. I'm sorry if you're just gonna outright attack a straw man I can at least poke fun at you.

But it seems from your replies that YOU yourself follow this God out of fear. It's actually interesting.

Right there says it all, why would it even matter if you say you don't believe, AND that hell does not exist...

Fun fact: I stopped believing in hell when I was a Christian.

To even say that God is not worthy of following because you don't like the only two options you are given, shows you DO believe in Him.

Voldemort is not worth worshipping.

It's pretty evident you just choose to NOT worship or follow Him. The devil even believes, and he trembles.

I don't choose to worship Voldemort because I'm not a masochistic dependent slave to a bunch of words on a page.

 

[Kristin E]

"You have free will... to choose only A or B"

Wow what freedom that is. I choose maybe G.



Because he seems to want to pull the trigger at any given moment. He's basically saying "Do whatever you want, just don't make me mad or I'll shoot."



Again with this whole "free will to choose" thing with a lame dichotomy.

He tortures them. Gunmen can torture people so it's still an apt comparison



Um. Next point. I'm done with this circle.



What if I chose Heaven?



An abusive patriarchal relationship with a masochistic and insecure alpha male. Who insist I degrade myself in every form of mental masochism and exalt him only.

I've had better enemies.



Who are you talking to?



You are misguided.



We're in a thread whose topic just happened to be hell. And I have grievance with the claim that such place exist. If this was a topic about Gitmo I'd also express my grievances with such a place. It's called a forum sweetheart.



I don't hate Voldermort. I'm sorry if you're just gonna outright attack a straw man I can at least poke fun at you.

But it seems from your replies that YOU yourself follow this God out of fear. It's actually interesting.



Fun fact: I stopped believing in hell when I was a Christian.



Voldemort is not worth worshipping.



I don't choose to worship Voldemort because I'm not a masochistic dependent slave to a bunch of words on a page.

I don't follow God out of fear, I choose to follow God... nice try though. I done followed the devil in my past before, so I oughta know who is worthy of praise and worship - GOD.

 

[Kristin E]

Why would it matter? Because people like you think it is good to poison the minds of children with this obscenity so as to terrify them into believing your doctrines. Because your religion is based on fear, not love. And it's worthwhile exposing it for what it is.

So you admit it then? You hate God. Great so the proof is you're not atheist at all, because a REAL atheist, well if atheism truly existed they wouldn't care... afterall they don't believe anyhow right?

 

[Skavau]

So you admit it then? You hate God. Great so the proof is you're not atheist at all, because a REAL atheist, well if atheism truly existed they wouldn't care... afterall they don't believe anyhow right?

He did no such thing. He said that your ideology was toxic and causes psychologically damaging effects towards children.

I am opposed to Scientology despite believing that nothing in Scientology is true because of the harmful attitudes and ideas it advocates.

 

[Kristin E]

The comparison makes sense because in both situations one party is exercising force over another. The threat of Hell renders dubious the claim that God wants a loving relationship with humanity. It suggests that he wants sycophants.



No, instead he sends them to an eternal torture chamber. How is that an improvement?



This is as asinine as claiming that the gunman's victim is to blame for the shooting because, technically, it could have been prevented if the victim complied with the gunman's demands.



What sort of relationship is based on fear? The relationship between a tyrant and his subjects.



No, I don't believe in God. I'm addressing your claims about him and about the afterlife.



You're the one who believes this stuff. I'm addressing your claims. But there is another reason I'm interested in this topic as well. In my view, the doctrine of Hell is the most obscene invention of religion and I find it deplorable that this is taught to children as the ultimate model of justice.

It's obscene only because you wish to live a life of sin, and because you want so bad to be your own god you hate the one true God.
Whether you like it or not, there are only two choice, period.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So you admit it then? You hate God. Great so the proof is you're not atheist at all, because a REAL atheist, well if atheism truly existed they wouldn't care... afterall they don't believe anyhow right?

Your logical fallacy is strawman.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It's obscene only because you wish to live a life of sin, and because you want so bad to be your own god you hate the one true God.
Whether you like it or not, there are only two choice, period.

Only two choices: Obey the gunman or get shot. The gunman respects your choice.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I don't follow God out of fear, I choose to follow God... nice try though. I done followed the devil in my past before, so I oughta know who is worthy of praise and worship - GOD.

Caught you. Guilt and fear.

 

[Kristin E]

Caught you. Guilt and fear.

No you didn't I clearly said I chose to worship Him, but nice try though. Here is a COOKIE!

 

[GoldenBoy89]

That's an offense to God. You willingly deny God.

You just really don't understand what it means to not believe in something to be real. Like, you really don't get it, do you?

To willingly deny God would mean to know that God exists and then say that He does not. I don't know that any gods exist. They have never been shown to be real beings that actually exist like you and I do. There are people who believe they do and there are people who do not believe that gods really exist in reality. I am of the ones who remains unconvinced of the existence of gods. Not just your god, but all gods/goddesses and any kind of deity.