Views of Evolution Depend on Knowledge

[OldWiseGuy]

Ow please.

For example, you do nothing but rant about schools and how they push atheism and evolution and whatnot, as some kind of evil anti-theist conspiracy.

I only rant on these boards.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I only rant on these boards.

So if you were given absolute power of the US's education system and curriculum, what would you do?
Be honest now.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What you call "traditional christian moral values" aren't exclusive to christianity at all. Nore is christian belief required for any of them.

Secular moral law is based on reason and argument. Not on unquestionable commandments from a perceived authority.

When you say "x is bad", you are actually required to motivate it. HOW is it bad and WHY.
And "because god says so", is not an acceptable answer in secular debate.

Your answer shouldn't mention any kind of god or any kind of holy book.
You should instead provide a reasonable argument that explores the behaviour in question, its objective effect on society as a whole and its direct and indirect consequences for both society as well as individuals. And that forms the basis for a moral judgement. Not some 3000 year old bronze age book.

Reason and argument are often the problem. The one who has the better debate skills, or already has the ear of the authority, can often affect bad policies. Take our dirty lakes for example. Scientists argue that if we clean up the lakes directly they would have no way of determining if their other plans are effective. They are using the lakes as a barometer for programs affecting the watershed. This of course is insane as it means the lakes will never be cleaned up. But it makes perfect sense to them.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So if you were given absolute power of the US's education system and curriculum, what would you do?
Be honest now.

Mandate that all schools be secured against violence.
Mandate proper dress codes, including teachers.
Class size limited to 20 students
Change seating arrangement from rows to circular.
Expulsion of troublemaking students.
Weekly instruction in citizenship (aud format).
Assign student-to-student mentoring.
Eliminate all homework.
Mandate more shop and trades courses.
Place the same importance on trades as is placed on college.
Give academic credits to students who work summer jobs or do community volunteer work.
Mandate substantial personal individual interaction between students and teachers.
Mandate broad exposure to activities, crafts, travel, technology, careers, jobs, etc.

This would be a good start.

Edit.

I would like to add social and recreational activities to the curriculum as well. Many kids see others doing things they will never have the opportunity to do. Many parents and teachers see some kids enjoying these activities and assume that all kids do as well. This of course is false. Kids need a broader base of experience than is available to many, especially poorer kids.

I also would require "get to know your fellow students" programs, where every student would meet every other student and interact with them on a productive basis sometime during their matriculation.

I would also plan formal chaperoned events where students would be assigned their escorts/dates. This would be voluntary and participants would receive 'social studies' credits.

'Whole person' development is sadly lacking in American schools. I would change that.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Reason and argument are often the problem. The one who has the better debate skills, or already has the ear of the authority, can often affect bad policies.

Yes. That's why you should care about the actual evidence.

Take our dirty lakes for example. Scientists argue that if we clean up the lakes directly they would have no way of determining if their other plans are effective. They are using the lakes as a barometer for programs affecting the watershed. This of course is insane as it means the lakes will never be cleaned up. But it makes perfect sense to them.

No idea what you are talking about. And frankly, a bit reluctant to take you on your word when you are badmouthing science/scientists. It's not like you don't have a reputation or something. So again, let's care more about the actual evidence and less about what people say/claim.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What you call "traditional christian moral values" aren't exclusive to christianity at all. Nore is christian belief required for any of them.

Secular moral law is based on reason and argument. Not on unquestionable commandments from a perceived authority.

When you say "x is bad", you are actually required to motivate it. HOW is it bad and WHY.
And "because god says so", is not an acceptable answer in secular debate.

Your answer shouldn't mention any kind of god or any kind of holy book.
You should instead provide a reasonable argument that explores the behaviour in question, its objective effect on society as a whole and its direct and indirect consequences for both society as well as individuals. And that forms the basis for a moral judgement. Not some 3000 year old bronze age book.

So why do Africans poop all over the place and we don't? They are very religious.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes. That's why you should care about the actual evidence.



No idea what you are talking about. And frankly, a bit reluctant to take you on your word when you are badmouthing science/scientists. It's not like you don't have a reputation or something. So again, let's care more about the actual evidence and less about what people say/claim.

I don't need an expert to explain to me what I plainly see.

I repeat the lake thing because it is true. I mentioned the dandelion thing because it is true (there's more bad news as well if you peel that onion back).

 

[DogmaHunter]

Mandate that all schools be secured against violence.
Mandate proper dress codes, including teachers.
Change seating arrangement from rows to circular.
Expulsion of troublemaking students.
Weekly instruction in citizenship (aud format).
Assign student-to-student mentoring.
Eliminate all homework.
Mandate more shop and trades courses.
Place the same importance on trades as is placed on college.
Give academic credits to students who work summer jobs or do community volunteer work.
Mandate substantial personal individual interaction between students and teachers.
Mandate broad exposure to activities, crafts, travel, technology, careers, jobs, etc.

This would be a good start.

What about the curriculum? Of let's say, biology. And the other natural sciences.

 

[DogmaHunter]

So why do Africans poop all over the place and we don't? They are very religious.

huh???

 

[tas8831]

No idea what you are talking about. And frankly, a bit reluctant to take you on your word when you are badmouthing science/scientists. It's not like you don't have a reputation or something.

Indeed...

 

[tas8831]

So why do Africans poop all over the place and we don't? They are very religious.

Which Africans are you referring to?

 

[tas8831]

Reason and argument are often the problem. The one who has the better debate skills, or already has the ear of the authority, can often affect bad policies. Take our dirty lakes for example. Scientists argue that if we clean up the lakes directly they would have no way of determining if their other plans are effective. They are using the lakes as a barometer for programs affecting the watershed. This of course is insane as it means the lakes will never be cleaned up. But it makes perfect sense to them.

I see another in a long line of unsupported assertions.

Nothing to see here, folks.

 

[tas8831]

Mandate that all schools be secured against violence.
Mandate proper dress codes, including teachers.
Change seating arrangement from rows to circular.
Expulsion of troublemaking students.
Weekly instruction in citizenship (aud format).
Assign student-to-student mentoring.
Eliminate all homework.
Mandate more shop and trades courses.
Place the same importance on trades as is placed on college.
Give academic credits to students who work summer jobs or do community volunteer work.
Mandate substantial personal individual interaction between students and teachers.
Mandate broad exposure to activities, crafts, travel, technology, careers, jobs, etc.

This would be a good start.

Sounds expensive. How would you mandate this be paid for?

Tax cuts for billionaires?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What about the curriculum? Of let's say, biology. And the other natural sciences.

No changes except as noted: smaller class sizes, seating, mentoring. You are clearly angling for me to bring creationism into science classes. This I wouldn't do as natural science is actually the study of creation.... if the students eventually have the eyes to see it. But it's up to them.

 

[bhsmte]

I see another in a long line of unsupported assertions.

Nothing to see here, folks.

He is really good at that.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

huh???

One Billion People Still Poop in Public

India is even worse.

One billion people still defecate in public despite health risks - UN

 

[PhantomGaze]

Genuine question:

Were the questions gauging knowledge of evolution framed in a way that a creationist would be comfortable answering about evolution based upon their knowledge of evolution, or were the questions framed (unintentionally I would imagine) such that a creationist might choose an incorrect answer based upon the fact that they don't believe it?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Bioscience published the results of a survey of 1100 Americans, asking them 25 content knowledge questions about evolution. Not surprisingly, people with more knowledge about evolution (answering questions accurately) were more likely to accept evolution.

This was no surprise -
the world loves the world, as written in God's Word.
The world knows more about the world (both accurately AND inaccurately)
than they ever know about God.
SO ?

 

[bhsmte]

Genuine question:

Were the questions gauging knowledge of evolution framed in a way that a creationist would be comfortable answering about evolution based upon their knowledge of evolution, or were the questions framed (unintentionally I would imagine) such that a creationist might choose an incorrect answer based upon the fact that they don't believe it?

More than likely, if one doesn't believe the TOE has merit, they either are ignorant of it and throw up their hands. Or, it scares them, because it contradicts a personal faith belief and the defense mechanisms go in over drive.

 

[pitabread]

Genuine question:

Were the questions gauging knowledge of evolution framed in a way that a creationist would be comfortable answering about evolution based upon their knowledge of evolution, or were the questions framed (unintentionally I would imagine) such that a creationist might choose an incorrect answer based upon the fact that they don't believe it?

Reading the linked article about the study, it sounds like the questions were carefully worded to avoid the type of issue you describe:

To measure participants' knowledge about evolution, for example, the researchers employed a National Science Foundation technique that starts questions with phrasing like "according to scientists" or "scientists would think." This, in theory, allows participants to answer based on what they know about a subject rather than what they believe about it.​