Views of Evolution Depend on Knowledge

[OldWiseGuy]

pssst: your dishonesty is showing again.

How about these:

- actively trying to crippling education by replacing biology/geology with bronze age tales
- actively discriminating against gay people
- actively discriminating against women
- actively discriminating against, and even dehumanizing, non-believers
- trying to dismantle the secular nature of society by blurring the lines between the separation of state and church
- traumatizing children by scaring them with imaginary eternal places of torture
- telling people that condoms (and/or other contraceptives) are evil and from the devil, and thereby also assisting in the further spread of HIV
- refusing to get proper health care for sick children because "it's all in god's hands anyway"
- …………

I don't do any of these things.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's a huge lie.
The only resistance to gay marriage, comes from religious beliefs.

Because religions, especially abrahamic religions, are as homophobic as it gets.
When you don't follow such religion, you have no reason at all to object to such marriage.

The resistance to this subject is entirely religious.

And you know it.

Then why are such cases adjudicated in secular courts and by secular government?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And these few examples that I gave (there are more then just these two, btw), completely obliterated your statement about how wings are designed for flight.

They aren't. Some wings are and others aren't. And among those that are, some of them are better at flight then others. There are gradations there. Exactly as we would expect from a process like evolution, by the way.

If a Condor made quick turns like a sparrow it's wings would break. If a sparrow had the wings of an Anaconda.....well you get the picture.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

.

 

[pitabread]

Religion often imposes itself where it shouldn't. It is enough that God condemns homosexuality. We don't need to add exclamation marks. They get the message.

You might want to tell that to your Christian brethren, because a lot of them seem to think otherwise:

And so on...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You might want to tell that to your Christian brethren, because a lot of them seem to think otherwise:

And so on...

They are trying to influence their legislators. Nothing wrong with that. Outrageous signs are part of most protests.

 

[pitabread]

They are trying to influence their legislators. Nothing wrong with that. Outrageous signs are part of most protests.

You just said, "Religion often imposes itself where it shouldn't."

Are you retracting that prior statement? Because you appear to have just contradicted yourself.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You just said, "Religion often imposes itself where it shouldn't."

Are you retracting that prior statement? Because you appear to have just contradicted yourself.

I wouldn't engage in such demonstrations, but I won't condemn them either. What is misguided is trying to force compliance with OT law through secular government. This isn't Christianity, it's more like.......Islam.

 

[pitabread]

I wouldn't engage in such demonstrations, but I won't condemn them either.

I didn't ask what you would do. I asked about your prior statement:

"Religion often imposes itself where it shouldn't. It is enough that God condemns homosexuality. We don't need to add exclamation marks. They get the message."
​

But when shown pictures of protestors against Gay marriage (specifically ones with religious messaging to boot), all you can say is this:

"They are trying to influence their legislators. Nothing wrong with that."​

If you think it's fine for people to influence legislation for obvious religious reasons, then it appears you are fine with religion "imposing itself" in areas it probably shouldn't. In this case, gay marriage, something you previously claimed was a "legal/technical issue, not a moral or religious one."

I can tell you right now, the subject of gay marriage is most certainly a religious issue for many people given the opposition to it. And you don't have to go very far to find examples of that.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I hear enough about other religions, I don't have to study them. No one lives in a complete bubble in this regard.

If you say so.

Christianity takes into consideration just about everything one needs to know about personal conduct and behavior.

Muslims claim that too about islam.
I'ld think most followers of most all religions would claim that about there religion.

Why look elsewhere, unless one finds some fault with it or is unable to live up to it's standards.

Indeed. Why step out of your comfort zone.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I don't do any of these things.

Ow please.

For example, you do nothing but rant about schools and how they push atheism and evolution and whatnot, as some kind of evil anti-theist conspiracy.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I didn't ask what you would do. I asked about your prior statement:

"Religion often imposes itself where it shouldn't. It is enough that God condemns homosexuality. We don't need to add exclamation marks. They get the message."
​

But when shown pictures of protestors against Gay marriage (specifically ones with religious messaging to boot), all you can say is this:

"They are trying to influence their legislators. Nothing wrong with that."​

If you think it's fine for people to influence legislation for obvious religious reasons, then it appears you are fine with religion "imposing itself" in areas it probably shouldn't. In this case, gay marriage, something you previously claimed was a "legal/technical issue, not a moral or religious one."

I can tell you right now, the subject of gay marriage is most certainly a religious issue for many people given the opposition to it. And you don't have to go very far to find examples of that.

Of course Christians address homosexuality as a moral issue, but are fighting it through secular political means. The 'moral' train has left the station.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If you say so.



Muslims claim that too about islam.
I'ld think most followers of most all religions would claim that about there religion.



Indeed. Why step out of your comfort zone.

All true.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Then why are such cases adjudicated in secular courts and by secular government?

That is indeed a very good question that you need to ask yourself…

Yes. Why IS this an issue in a secular country?

Perhaps now you can see the problem.
This is what we non-believers living in a secular society have to deal with. Objection to secular law, rooted in religious reasoning.

 

[DogmaHunter]

If an Anaconda made quick turns like a sparrow it's wings would break. If a sparrow had the wings of an Anaconda.....well you get the picture.

An anaconda is a snake and it doesn't have wings.

Anyhow, no idea what your point is.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That is indeed a very good question that you need to ask yourself…

Yes. Why IS this an issue in a secular country?

Perhaps now you can see the problem.
This is what we non-believers living in a secular society have to deal with. Objection to secular law, rooted in religious reasoning.

How far are you willing to explore that? How many on the list of laws born of traditional Christian moral values would you 'pencil out'?

 

[pitabread]

Of course Christians address homosexuality as a moral issue, but are fighting it through secular political means. The 'moral' train has left the station.

Except that their motivation is driven by religion in the first place. Otherwise, they wouldn't care to begin with, especially since there isn't a single secular argument against gay marriage that is exclusive to homosexuality.

I'm afraid you can't divorce the motive from the action so easily. And especially not when said protesters are using religious messaging in their very protests.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

An anaconda is a snake and it doesn't have wings.

Anyhow, no idea what your point is.

Sorry, I meant Condor.

 

[DogmaHunter]

How far are you willing to explore that? How many on the list of laws born of traditional Christian moral values would you 'pencil out'?

What you call "traditional christian moral values" aren't exclusive to christianity at all. Nore is christian belief required for any of them.

Secular moral law is based on reason and argument. Not on unquestionable commandments from a perceived authority.

When you say "x is bad", you are actually required to motivate it. HOW is it bad and WHY.
And "because god says so", is not an acceptable answer in secular debate.

Your answer shouldn't mention any kind of god or any kind of holy book.
You should instead provide a reasonable argument that explores the behaviour in question, its objective effect on society as a whole and its direct and indirect consequences for both society as well as individuals. And that forms the basis for a moral judgement. Not some 3000 year old bronze age book.