Views of Evolution Depend on Knowledge

[OldWiseGuy]

No, it's the fact that so few Christians in America actually ever listen to things like "Love your neighbor". They are too busy keeping a wary eye on "those muslims" or "those mexicans" trying to sneak in.

Shouldn't Christians be good citizens as well? Should the "goodman of the house" not protect his dwelling from thieves that enter and "break up" his house, as these illegals have done?

 

[pitabread]

So it's Christianity (love your neighbor) that's the cause of our problems, not secularism?

That's not what I said. In fact, I even pointed out earlier that I don't believe that religion is necessarily the cause of societal issues* either. Understanding societal issues and their root causes is a complex subject with many variables at work.

My whole point is that trying to pin both broad solutions and/or blame on singular factors is a naive approach to understanding society.

*(That said, there are specific circumstances where religion-influenced public policy can have negative effects. Abstinence-only education is a prime example. Curtailing of science education is another.)

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's not what I said. In fact, I even pointed out earlier that I don't believe that religion is necessarily the cause of societal issues* either. Understanding societal issues and their root causes is a complex subject with many variables at work.

My whole point is that trying to pin both broad solutions and/or blame on singular factors is a naive approach to understanding society.

*(That said, there are specific circumstances where religion-influenced public policy can have negative effects. Abstinence-only education is a prime example. Curtailing of science education is another.)

"Complexity" is often the result of confusion or indecision. In a nation whose thoughts are heavily influenced by the sensationalized liberal media is it any wonder that we are unable to solve even simple problems, without regard to either religion or secularism.

Consider the school shooting in Texas the other day. The school, including students, staff, and security, were totally unprepared for the event. It is my guess that the majority opinion was that it would 'never happen here'.

 

[pitabread]

"Complexity" is often the result of confusion or indecision.

I'm using the term "complexity" to describe a the state of system, in this case society. Society is a complex system in that it is made of up numerous components and variables, and with a variety of cause-effect relationships (some or many of which may not be entirely understood) leading to different potential outcomes.

That society is complex is not a result of confusion or indecision. It simply just is.

Consider the school shooting in Texas the other day. The school, including students, staff, and security, were totally unprepared for the event. Why do you think that was?

I honestly haven't given it any thought.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'm using the term "complexity" to describe a the state of system, in this case society. Society is a complex system in that it is made of up numerous components and variables, and with a variety of cause-effect relationships (some or many of which may not be entirely understood) leading to different potential outcomes.

That society is complex is not a result of confusion or indecision. It simply just is.

I'm responding to the term as it is used as a reason or excuse for inaction. Also when ineffective systems are large and 'institutionalized', their 'complexity' prevents needed change. It's a growing spiral of confusion that infects most of society.

I honestly haven't given it any thought.

It is lot to think about.

 

[theQuincunx5]

Shouldn't Christians be good citizens as well? Should the "goodman of the house" not protect his dwelling from thieves that enter and "break up" his house, as these illegals have done?

Matt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

 

[theQuincunx5]

My religion instructs me to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is true". I have done this (to the best of my ability), thus my complete satisfaction that what I believe is in fact true.

That is good.

Regarding other religions; I acknowledge the moral commonalities between them and Christianity. It is the other peculiar practices that I have problems with. That Christianity is the superior religion is evidenced by the global outreach with the purpose of serving the basic human needs unmet by the religions of those peoples.

basic human needs unmet by the religions of those people? What pride you have. I would almost call it hubris. Pride goeth before destruction.

Christianity definitely has done good in the world. Just as it has done a great deal of evil in its past. Just as all religions serve humanity for good and still manage to do evil. It is humanity that is the commonality.

There is nothing in any religion that has ever kept someone from doing whatever evil is truly in their heart and no atheism that ever stopped someone from doing whatever good was in theirs. And vice versa.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

We have a priest on trial for child molestation who everyone says is a "nice" man.

... not really sure how that follows from what I said.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I said they are "happening", not decreasing or increasing.

No, true. But they are still decreasing, and they will also always happen because there are people who will commit those acts regardless of religious beliefs or otherwise. So your point is a bit... well, ridiculous, to use a nice word.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

... not really sure how that follows from what I said.

He is nice, but he is not good.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

basic human needs unmet by the religions of those people? What pride you have. I would almost call it hubris. Pride goeth before destruction.

Christianity definitely has done good in the world. Just as it has done a great deal of evil in its past. Just as all religions serve humanity for good and still manage to do evil. It is humanity that is the commonality.

There is nothing in any religion that has ever kept someone from doing whatever evil is truly in their heart and no atheism that ever stopped someone from doing whatever good was in theirs. And vice versa.

The evil done (in the name of) Christianity is pretty much in the past. Today Christian outreach is helping millions around the world out of poverty, in spite of their traditional religious beliefs, which in the case of Africa has been responsible for keeping them in poverty. Many Africans gladly cleave to Christianity as it successfully addresses many of the mundane problems that their traditional religions ignore.

Christian Aid in Ghana | Christian Aid

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, true. But they are still decreasing, and they will also always happen because there are people who will commit those acts regardless of religious beliefs or otherwise. So your point is a bit... well, ridiculous, to use a nice word.

My point was the failure of the secularized socialization program of public schools, not religion. Also the other offences I mentioned are actually increasing, but are under the radar because of the attention given to extreme events.

https://www.usnews.com/news/article...iolence-on-the-rise-for-students-and-teachers

"For parents, school staff, and policymakers to effectively address school crime, they need an accurate understanding of the extent, nature, and context of the problem," the report says. "However, it is difficult to gauge the scope of crime and violence in schools given the large amount of attention devoted to isolated incidents of extreme school violence."

 

[theQuincunx5]

The evil done (in the name of) Christianity is pretty much in the past.

And that changes exactly what? Oh, I know! It allows Christians to look at other religions and say "That's horrible! Look at the evil they do!"

Thank God there's a statute of limitations on murder.

Today Christian outreach is helping millions around the world out of poverty, in spite of their traditional religious beliefs, which in the case of Africa has been responsible for keeping them in poverty. Many Africans gladly cleave to Christianity as it successfully addresses many of the mundane problems that their traditional religions ignore.

Christian Aid in Ghana | Christian Aid

And, indeed, many Christians today in the US are helping African nations keep up horrible repressions against homosexuals.

It’s Not Just Uganda: Behind the Christian Right’s Onslaught in Africa

Look, I admit that Christians by and large today do good things in the world (when some of them aren't cheerleading for the oppression of certain classes of people.) But please don't act as if Christianity has a corner on the market for "good". It is an unappealing self-agrandizement. It's pride writ large and it's a denial of their own sins.

I'm more than willing to agree that Christians do good today. But then I'm also willing to say that many other religious faiths do good as well. The most sinful, anti-christian thing I can imagine is for a Christian to act as if they are the sole purveyors of good in the world. Pride goeth before destruction.

 

[pitabread]

The evil done (in the name of) Christianity is pretty much in the past.

You sure about that?

 

[theQuincunx5]

You sure about that?

...wait for it!

1. Those people aren't real Christians
2. Those people are doing it IN SPITE of Christianity's message

 

[OldWiseGuy]

...wait for it!

1. Those people aren't real Christians
2. Those people are doing it IN SPITE of Christianity's message

You nailed it!

Lots of tares (Christianity's evil twin) 'mongst the wheat.

Wheat's Evil Twin Has Been Intoxicating Humans For Centuries

 

[theQuincunx5]

You nailed it!

They aren't scotsmen either...or at least not true scotsmen.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

They aren't scotsmen either...or at least not true scotsmen.

That too.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

My point was the failure of the secularized socialization program of public schools, not religion. Also the other offences I mentioned are actually increasing, but are under the radar because of the attention given to extreme events.

https://www.usnews.com/news/article...iolence-on-the-rise-for-students-and-teachers

"For parents, school staff, and policymakers to effectively address school crime, they need an accurate understanding of the extent, nature, and context of the problem," the report says. "However, it is difficult to gauge the scope of crime and violence in schools given the large amount of attention devoted to isolated incidents of extreme school violence."

An article from four years ago? Really? Try harder next time.
And your attempt to blame this all on the lack of religion is just stupidly plain.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Kids aren't encouraged to think or question until they get to college, and even then if they irk their professors it will show up in their grades. You don't buck authority.

Education is meant more to civilize and socialize kids than educate them. I wonder why that is?

Sounds like the schools you are familiar with, may need some reform.

I never once met a teacher who punishes me for asking questions.
Obviously, I had to master the material to get a good grade.

Asking questions and understanding the issues though, is how you master the material.