Views From an Open-Minded Calvinist

[nasa1]

The Bible disagrees with your assesment of Melchizedek:


Hebrews

1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.



He had no beginning of days or end of life! This man was God!

NASA

 

[nasa1]

So if Melchizedek was Christ, then Christ is a reincarnation of sorts of Melchizedek. We could go even further and say that "the angel of the Lord" was Christ precarnate. See that word in both reincarnate, and precarnate? "carnate"? Whatever.

NASA

 

[heymikey80]

The Bible disagrees with your assesment of Melchizedek:


Hebrews

1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

He had no beginning of days or end of life! This man was God!

NASA

Um, I think you're applying concretely some assertions that the Apostle is making typologically. Scripture doesn't say Melchizedek was God -- in fact Scripture says Melchizedek was a priest. The Apostle uses Scripture's silence on Mel's birth and death to point typologically to the superiority and eternity of a priesthood like Melchizedek.

The Apostle further clarifies this point by pointing out "another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek" -- not that the Apostle says this is "another priest", not simply "Melchizedek", which -- if your conclusion were true, would be the way of saying your conclusion. But no, the Apostle says Jesus is "another". So Melchizedek is not Jesus. Melchizedek is not God, but a type of the One to come.

 

[Edial]

...
I have heard of other near death experiences of people who were not Christians when they died, but met Christ on the other side and came back believing. They died temporarily and came back to life. I praise the Lord for being so merciful and loving, and so patient with His creation.

What you are saying is possible.

This reminds me of the following text ...

REV 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

This is telling me that in order for someone to wind up in Hades one needs to "go past" Christ, since He will need to "open the doors" for him.

We also know that one winds up in the Burning Lake when he rejects Christ.

JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

And this verse is not that rejection that we all have by default of being rebellious sinners.
It is the "rejection" in the context of Son and His Gospel as we know it.

In other words, one must plainly, soberly and consistently reject Christ in the context of the Gospel.

I also do not know of one verse that states that one needs to be saved in this life, or be damned.

So, it appears that all people will see Christ when they die.

...I would like to add that I believe some sort of reincarnation might be possible, as the Theologian Origen also believed. Even the Milliennial people believe in a type of reincarnation regarding the two witnessess, saying that they will be Elijah and Moses or Elijah and Enoch, so this view is not all that strange.

I don't think that a word reincarnation is a proper definition.

However, you do have a point.
Christ did call John the Baptist Elijah.

But I see a resolution of it only from a trichotomous view, that is there is a body, soul and spirit.

Spirit of a man goes to God ...

ECC 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Soul of a man is the one that gets saved or judged.

It is very possible that God sends spirits of people into other people.
No one said that a spirit of a man belongs to that man exclusively.

Yet we have a statement that our souls belongs to us.

Third point that you made, that Melchizedek is God.

I think it is better to see what other possibilities are there outside of what you presented.

Here is the text ...

HEB 7:1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

I think that we could deduce that Melchizedek was outside of time.
Time has a beginning and end. He is outside of it.

OK. Were there created being before time began?

We know of at least one - Wisdom.

She was created as the first of God's works before the world began. She came from eternity.

PR 8:22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
PR 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

This is telling me that there probably were other creations of God that already were before time began.

I cannot agree that Melchizedek is God because of the following:
1. He is not presented as God
2. There were other creations before the time began.

Now, how can something be created when it had no beginning?
I don't know.

But I understand that eternity is a state of being that has nothing to do with time.
We will be put in that new state, not have our days extended forever.


Thanks for your thoughts. Very interesting.

Got anything else.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[JustAsIam77]

Hello Ed,

Would you expound on your thinking regarding your statement:

Quote:
"I also do not know of one verse that states that one needs to be saved in this life, or be damned."

Thank you

 

[Edial]

Hello Ed,

Would you expound on your thinking regarding your statement:

Quote:
"I also do not know of one verse that states that one needs to be saved in this life, or be damned."

Thank you

Hello

Well, salvation is only through Christ.

However, I do not know of any verse that states that we need to be saved while alive.

The cutoff date is the Great White Throne Judgement.

And just to clarify, I do not believe in Purgatory.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[JustAsIam77]

Hello

Well, salvation is only through Christ.

However, I do not know of any verse that states that we need to be saved while alive.

The cutoff date is the Great White Throne Judgement.

And just to clarify, I do not believe in Purgatory.

Thanks,
Ed

Hi Ed,

Please provide scriptural reference that states we can be saved after we are dead.

Thank you

 

[Edial]

Hi Ed,

Please provide scriptural reference that states we can be saved after we are dead.

Thank you

Please forgive me, but before we talk about this I would need to ask this.
In your readings of the Bible, do you get an understanding that Christ saw life as something that does not just end when we die?
And if you do, (and I presume you do, since this is the Calvinist sub-forum) can you provide verses to support what you appear to presume?
(I mean this in the context of the people that never heard the Gospel in order to reject it).

Thanks,
Ed

 

[JustAsIam77]

Please forgive me, but before we talk about this I would need to ask this.
In your readings of the Bible, do you get an understanding that Christ saw life as something that does not just end when we die?
And if you do, (and I presume you do, since this is the Calvinist sub-forum) can you provide verses to support what you appear to presume?
(I mean this in the context of the people that never heard the Gospel in order to reject it).

Thanks,
Ed

Hey Ed,

Pre debate I in all humility would ask again, could you provide any scriptural basis for claiming we can be saved after death? Not to be evasive, but this is what you have stated. I am all ears, any scripture supporting your position will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Edial]

Hey Ed,

Pre debate I in all humility would ask again, could you provide any scriptural basis for claiming we can be saved after death? Not to be evasive, but this is what you have stated. I am all ears, any scripture supporting your position will be greatly appreciated.

I'll give you one, then you give me Scripture showing that one must be saved only while he is alive.
OK?

What happened to Jonah when he died and cried out to God to save him while he was in Sheol? (Jonah 2:2)
(Note: some translations render Sheol as grave. It is incorrect. Sheol in Hebrew is always the realm of the departed dead).

I'll be more than happy to discuss this text and others.

However, I would also like to see the verses supporting your view.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[JustAsIam77]

I'll give you one, then you give me Scripture showing that one must be saved only while he is alive.
OK?

What happened to Jonah when he died and cried out to God to save him while he was in Sheol? (Jonah 2:2)
(Note: some translations render Sheol as grave. It is incorrect. Sheol in Hebrew is always the realm of the departed dead).

I'll be more than happy to discuss this text and others.

However, I would also like to see the verses supporting your view.

Thanks,
Ed

Hi Ed,

Jonah was not dead when God saved him:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jonah 2:7;&version=31;

As far as scripture supporting my view that one must still be alive to be saved, the fact that there is not one single passage in the bible that states we can be saved after death is proof of my position by reason of simple common sense.

One of the reasons I came to the semper reformanda board was because unlike many of the other more liberal forums, here for the most part strict adherence to the bible is observed. Not alot of going round and round trying to twist scripture into saying something it does not.

In Him

 

[GrinningDwarf]

What happened to Jonah when he died and cried out to God to save him while he was in Sheol? (Jonah 2:2)
(Note: some translations render Sheol as grave. It is incorrect. Sheol in Hebrew is always the realm of the departed dead).

Do you really think Jonah was dead in the belly of the fish?

 

[JustAsIam77]

Hi Ed,

You may find the following link useful. It has many scriptural references to refute the belief that once death occurs we can still be saved:

http://www.gotquestions.org/second-chance-salvation.html

In Him

 

[Edial]

Hi Ed,

Jonah was not dead when God saved him:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jonah 2:7;&version=31;

Jonah 2:7 is a good passage to have a discussion on what I proposed.

Let's combine the 3 passages in that one chapter to get a better view.

1. Here we see that Jonah is praying inside the fish while alive. In it he is giving the summary of all the events that happened while inside the fish.

JNH 2:1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God.... this verse is followed by the events.

2. Here we see that Jonah is praying while alive as his life is ebbing away.

JNH 2:7 "When my life was ebbing away,
I remembered you, LORD,
and my prayer rose to you,
to your holy temple.

3. And here we see that Jonah is praying from Sheol, the place for the departed dead.

JNH 2:2 He said:
"In my distress I called to the LORD,
and he answered me.
From the depths of the grave (Sheol) I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.

Now, let's try harmonizing these 3 passages to get one chronological event.

1. Jonah was inside the great fish.
2. He started to feel that his life is slipping away.
3. He got scared and started praying to the Lord.
4. He wound up in Sheol, hence died.
5. He never stopped praying while dying and his prayer rose to God while he was in Sheol.
6. God saved him from Sheol and he became alive again inside the fish.
7. The fish vomited him out.

Christ compared his death and resurrection to the story of Jonah.
Christ also died, went to Sheol (or Hades in the NT) and rose again.

As far as scripture supporting my view that one must still be alive to be saved, the fact that there is not one single passage in the bible that states we can be saved after death is proof of my position by reason of simple common sense.

Oh, our common sense ot logic would never tell us the things of God adequately. That's why we have the Bible.

And you agree that there is not one verse to state that one still must be alive in order to be saved.

You see, even if there would be no verses on both sides concerning this topic, it would be unwise to make a conculsion that is based just on logic or reasoning.

One of the reasons I came to the semper reformanda board was because unlike many of the other more liberal forums, here for the most part strict adherence to the bible is observed. Not alot of going round and round trying to twist scripture into saying something it does not.

In Him

Good for you.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Do you really think Jonah was dead in the belly of the fish?

At least for a while.
I expanded on this in the post above.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Hi Ed,

You may find the following link useful. It has many scriptural references to refute the belief that once death occurs we can still be saved:

http://www.gotquestions.org/second-chance-salvation.html

In Him

I am looking at this article and will give response hopefully later on tonight.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Question: "Will there be a second chance for salvation after death?"

Answer: While the idea of a second chance for salvation is appealing, the Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances. The idea of purgatory, a place where people go after death to pay for their sins, has no biblical basis, but is rather a tradition of the Roman Catholic Church.

Hebrews 9:27 does tell us that we die one time, and then face judgment.
Yes.
Yet the judgement is the Great White Throne Judgement that is in the future, not now.
And we all will face judgement, believers for their works and unbelievers for their souls.
But meanwhile, there is a time period betwen now and when that time of Judgement will come.
Hebrews 9 does not say that one cannot be saved after he died.

And concerning Purgatory?
I certainly do not believe it.
No one can pray someone out unto salvation.

To understand what happens to nonbelievers after they die, we go to Revelation 20:11-15 which describes the Great White Throne judgment. Here takes place the opening of the books and “the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” The books contain all the thoughts and deeds of those being judged, and we know from Romans 3:20 that “by the works of the Law is no flesh justified.” Therefore, all who are judged by their works and thoughts are condemned to hell. Believers in Christ, on the other hand, are not judged by the books of works, but their names are found written in another book—the “Lamb’s Book of Life” (Revelation 21:27). These are the ones who have believed on the Lord Jesus, and they alone will be allowed to enter heaven.

Agree.

The key to understanding this is the Lamb’s Book of Life. Anyone whose name is written in this book was “saved before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4) by God’s sovereign saving grace to be part of His Son’s bride, the church of Jesus Christ. These people need no “second chance” at salvation because their salvation has been secured by Christ. He chose us, He saved us, and He will keep us saved. Nothing can separate us from Christ (Romans 8:39). Those for whom He died will be saved because Jesus will see to it. He declared “all that the Father has given me will come to me” (John 6:37), and “I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand” (John 10:28). For believers, there is no need for a second chance because the first chance is sufficient.

Here I do not agree with everything, since it is a Calvinistic teaching.
However, in the context of this present discussion, I do not see a problem.

What about those who do not believe? Wouldn’t they repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their hearts are not changed simply because they die. Their hearts and minds “are at enmity” against God and won’t accept Him even when they see Him face to face. This is evidenced clearly in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. If ever someone should have repented when given a second chance to see clearly the truth, it was the rich man. But although he was in torment in hell, he only asked that Abraham send Lazarus back to earth to warn his brothers so they didn’t have to suffer the same fate. There was no repentance in his heart, only regret for where he found himself. Abraham’s answer says it all: “And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:31). Here we see that the witness of the Scriptures is sufficient for salvation for those who believe it, and no other revelation will bring about salvation to those who do not. No second, third or fourth chances would be enough to turn the heart of stone into a heart of flesh.

Luke 16 presents a person winding up in Hades and seeing Abraham. His immediate concern was for the safety of his brothers.
That is correct, the rich man did not show repentance.
My point is not that all repent when they die.
The instance of the rich man in Hades is a snapshot of one event.

Concerning the response of Abraham saying that if his brothers will not listen to the Bible no miracle will help while they are alive.

Philippians 2:10-11 declares “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” One day, everyone will bow before Jesus and recognize that He is the Lord and Savior. At that point, though, it is too late for salvation. After death, all that remains for the unbeliever is judgment (Revelation 20:14-15). That is why we must trust in Him in this life.

The Judgement is in the future.

Since Hebrews 9 presents that we are destined to die once and then face judgement does not mean that people cannot be saved unto heaven after they die, and since all will face one type of a judgement or another I cannot see how this article proves that one cannot be saved after they die.

Now, please understand, I am not talking about people that were rejecting the Gospel here, while alive.
They will probably do that even "down there".

I am talking about people other people.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[JustAsIam77]

Hi Ed, my brother in Christ,

You have certainly put alot of research into your response.

I must in all honesty tell you we are so many miles apart on this issue that it is fruitless IMO to continue.

I will not waiver one ounce in my opinion regarding my belief that we have only one chance at salvation in this life and not after. It is already predistined to be so since before the foundation of the world.

If we could make up the rules concerning when salvation is possible in this life or the next other than what the bible says, where would it end? Perhaps God will save a soul that is in hell after 1000 years? I do not know this because it's not addressed in the holy scriptures. Perhaps we can be saved after death, where is this stated in the bible? I can only follow what Gods inspired word PLAINLY says in the bible.

These back and forth debates about theology that should be known by reformed believers is very disconcerting.

If you believe one can be saved after death when nowhere in the scripture is this supported, we have no basis at all to debate in a reformed forum.

God bless

 

[Edial]

Hi Ed, my brother in Christ,

You have certainly put alot of research into your response.

I must in all honesty tell you we are so many miles apart on this issue that it is fruitless IMO to continue.

I will not waiver one ounce in my opinion regarding my belief that we have only one chance at salvation in this life and not after.

If we could make up the rules concerning when salvation is possible in this life or the next other than what the bible says, where would it end? Perhaps God will save a soul that is in hell after 1000 years? I do not know this because it's not addressed in the holy scriptures. Perhaps we can be saved after death, where is this stated in the bible? I can only follow what Gods inspired word PLAINLY says in the bible.

These back and forth debates about theology that should be known by reformed believers is very disconcerting.

If you believe one can be saved after death when nowhere in the scripture is this supported, we have no basis at all to debate in a reformed forum.

God bless

Oh, I wasn't planning to debate this in the Reformed forum.
My sister, who is Baptist brought this thread to my attention and asked me to take a look at it.

In this case I just responded to your question.

I also think I presented a clear example that states Jonah cried out from Sheol and God saved him.

I certainly consider you a brother in Christ also and say that if you are happy here - good for you.

If I would not consider you be saved, I probably would be more insistant.

But otherwise, I think that the OP has some very interesting thoughts.
(And his thoughts are certainly outside of the denominational "bounds").

I was wondering if he had any other thoughts.
But it appears it is only you and I are chatting.

In this case I will probably bow out.

Thanks,
Ed