Views From an Open-Minded Calvinist

[nasa1]

I decided to repost this because some people might be questioning my statement made in the "Are Non-Calvinists Saved" thread."



Viewpoint from an open-minded Calvinist


I found this entry in a dictionary of religion and philosophy:




Contra-Remonstrantie
The document drawn up by the strict Calvinists in response to the Arminian Remonstrance.
Prepared for a conference held at the Hague in 1611, it asserted:

(a) that some persons are absolutely predestined to damnation;

(b) that the elect include children as well as adults;

(c) that election is by God's arbitrary choice having no relation either to good works or right belief;

(d) that Christ died for the elect only;

(e) that the Holy Spirit of God speaks through the Bible to the elect only;

(f) that true belief can never be lost to anyone who is elected; and

(g) that this assurance, far from leading to smugness or sloth, as the profane might expect, is a spur to a virtuous life and an active zeal for God's Kingdom.









I would like to focus on C, that election is by God's arbitrary choice having no relation either to good works or right belief.


I once read of a Christian man who, at 18, was badly burned in a sky diving accident and who temporarily died while in the hospital. He says that when he died, he saw a light in the distance, but that he was moving away from the light. He knew that God was in the light, and cried out, "God, God, save me, save me!" In an instant, he was transported out of darkness and into the Light. He said that it was incredible, although he did not know who God was. He came back to his body, and eventually recovered from his burns. He was determined to find who was the God of Light that saved him.

He studied many religions and finally came to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. There was a picture of him in the magazine - one side of his face was scarred from being burned. He says that He was given a slim chance for repentence. He is very thankful that God had mercy on his soul and saved him.


Now, when I told this story to some Calvinist friends, they got offended. "It sounds like some universalist lie" one even said.


I believe that God is a Sovereign God who can decide to save anyone at any time. I also believe that He can decide to save someone despite not having a right belief. For example, I believe that many Buddhists who never heard the gospel were saved despite their wrong belief. If someone can not know of Jesus and meet Him on the other side, then so can anyone else. I personally believe that this has happened for millions of people. After all, God is mighty to save!


I have heard of other near death experiences of people who were not Christians when they died, but met Christ on the other side and came back believing. They died temporarily and came back to life. I praise the Lord for being so merciful and loving, and so patient with His creation.

NASA


ps I would like to add that I believe some sort of reincarnation might be possible, as the Theologian Origen also believed. Even the Milliennial people believe in a type of reincarnation regarding the two witnessess, saying that they will be Elijah and Moses or Elijah and Enoch, so this view is not all that strange.

 

[Canuckmom]

God is certainly sovereign and can save anyone at any time using whatever means He wishes; nevertheless, He ordinarily uses the means of hearing preaching or reading the Word to save souls. It is His Word that must be our final court of appeal.

nasa1 wrote:

For example, I believe that many Buddhists who never heard the gospel were saved despite their wrong belief.

Not according to the Scripture, Jn3:3 ....Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jn.6:53 ...Except ye eat (spiritually of course) the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.

Jn. 11:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Where is there a Bible text proving reincarnation?
It doesn't matter what Origen, Millenial people or anyone else believes, but what do the Scriptures teach?

 

[nasa1]

There are many accounts of people being saved on "the other side" before they heard of Jesus or gave their lives to Him. That proves that you do not necessarily need to hear the gospel here - but you will have to when you die, sooner or later. God is very forgiving and compassionate and wants to save His creation, not send them to hell.


He is love.

As for reincarnation, I think there are some scriptures that may support it. Think of this: when Jesus asked, "Who do men say that I am?" and they all mentioned people who had died, what does that tell you? It proves that reincarnation was an accepted doctrine among the Jews and not even Jesus Himself rebuked their ideas.

NASA

 

[Epiphoskei]

ps I would like to add that I believe some sort of reincarnation might be possible, as the Theologian Origen also believed. Even the Milliennial people believe in a type of reincarnation regarding the two witnessess, saying that they will be Elijah and Moses or Elijah and Enoch, so this view is not all that strange.

This is not reincarnation. Reincarnation is the idea that souls will be sent to other bodies. Nothing indicates that the two witnesses will be in anything but their own bodies.

The scriptures speak of resurrection, not reincarnation, and the two are not compatable, because the former implies that these bodies we are in actually are us to a certain extent. Origen could hold to reincarnation because he was so heavily influenced by the Greek notion that we are actually just our souls.

 

[Elderone]

There are many accounts of people being saved on "the other side" before they heard of Jesus or gave their lives to Him. That proves that you do not necessarily need to hear the gospel here - but you will have to when you die, sooner or later. God is very forgiving and compassionate and wants to save His creation, not send them to hell.


He is love.

As for reincarnation, I think there are some scriptures that may support it. Think of this: when Jesus asked, "Who do men say that I am?" and they all mentioned people who had died, what does that tell you? It proves that reincarnation was an accepted doctrine among the Jews and not even Jesus Himself rebuked their ideas.

NASA

Please provide the passages, in the Bible, that prove your statements?

 

[bradfordl]

There are many accounts of people being saved on "the other side" before they heard of Jesus or gave their lives to Him. That proves that you do not necessarily need to hear the gospel here - but you will have to when you die, sooner or later.

Huh?

What "accounts" are these? Any in scripture? Or just the hallucinatory accounts of folks who became acutely aware of their own mortality and lost condition through some traumatic experience. All men are liars, sister, only God is always true. There are no accounts of anyone being saved on "the other side" that didn't come back to this side and publicize it, that would be impossible.

God is very forgiving and compassionate and wants to save His creation, not send them to hell.

Don't you claim to be a calvinist? If God wants something, what could possibly prevent Him from getting exactly that thing? If He wants to save all His creation, what could possibly stop Him from doing that? If He does not want to send any part of His creation to hell, what could possibly force Him to do so against His will?

He is love.

But is that all He is? What about holy and just, righteous in His judgements?

 

[nasa1]

This is not reincarnation. Reincarnation is the idea that souls will be sent to other bodies. Nothing indicates that the two witnesses will be in anything but their own bodies.

The scriptures speak of resurrection, not reincarnation, and the two are not compatable, because the former implies that these bodies we are in actually are us to a certain extent. Origen could hold to reincarnation because he was so heavily influenced by the Greek notion that we are actually just our souls.

So let's say that the two witnessess are Elijah and Enoch. You are saying that God will dig up their rotting corpses and make it a brand new body, and put them in it?

I don't believe the soul is immortal, and I also don't think the scriptures teach that the spirit is immortal - the Bible says that God alone has immortality. So I do not believe in a continuous flux of souls going back to earth for all eternity, but it could be possible that a soul or spirit does come back for whatever reason.

I believe in the pre-existence of souls and spirits, though. Perhaps God decided when to put a soul and spirit into an embryo. I really don't know how it works, if it all.

NASA

 

[nasa1]

Huh?

What "accounts" are these? Any in scripture? Or just the hallucinatory accounts of folks who became acutely aware of their own mortality and lost condition through some traumatic experience. All men are liars, sister, only God is always true. There are no accounts of anyone being saved on "the other side" that didn't come back to this side and publicize it, that would be impossible.
Don't you claim to be a calvinist? If God wants something, what could possibly prevent Him from getting exactly that thing? If He wants to save all His creation, what could possibly stop Him from doing that? If He does not want to send any part of His creation to hell, what could possibly force Him to do so against His will?
But is that all He is? What about holy and just, righteous in His judgements?

Of course God can send anyone to hell. That is His discretion. But I think that His overwhelming desire is to save. That is what Yeshua means - salvation. That is what He is about. He is Hosanna. He is not "damnation." He is mighty to save.

Anyway, God is love. That is the totality of who He is. The righteousness of God, the justice of God, and whatever else of of God is included in Love. He would create in love, judge in love, and live in love. That is why we cannot be united with Him if we do not love.

As for near death experiences, I choose to believe them. I choose to believe a person who dies not knowing Christ and who comes back a believer had a true experience. Perhaps that is because I myself have had an encounter with the heavenly realm. But that is another story for another time.

There is even a near death experience in the Bible, as Paul wrote it. He does not say that the man was a believer or not. He simply says that the man went to the third heaven, heard wonderful things, and came back to earth.



NASA

 

[nasa1]

Please provide the passages, in the Bible, that prove your statements?

I am one of the stupid sheep. Surely you have already done the research yourself.

You need no answers from me.


NASA

 

[JustAsIam77]

So let's say that the two witnessess are Elijah and Enoch. You are saying that God will dig up their rotting corpses and make it a brand new body, and put them in it?

I don't believe the soul is immortal, and I also don't think the scriptures teach that the spirit is immortal - the Bible says that God alone has immortality. So I do not believe in a continuous flux of souls going back to earth for all eternity, but it could be possible that a soul or spirit does come back for whatever reason.

I believe in the pre-existence of souls and spirits, though. Perhaps God decided when to put a soul and spirit into an embryo. I really don't know how it works, if it all.

NASA

In all humility, let me suggest to you that more indepth study of scripture will help you to a more complete understanding of Gods word.

There are many inconsistences between what you believe and what is truth according to scripture.

I believe your heart is in the right place. Praise God. I do not judge, only wanting you to discover Gods truth as you are admittedly new in the faith.

 

[Epiphoskei]

So let's say that the two witnessess are Elijah and Enoch. You are saying that God will dig up their rotting corpses and make it a brand new body, and put them in it?

That is the essence of ressurrection. The question of "how are the dead raised" is tricky for this reason, and we are not given a technical answer, however remember that the body is not entierly physical either, that to be ressurrected requires that the very matter which died is reassembled.

We don't have about any matter in our bodies which we had ten years ago. However I still have the same body which I had ten years ago, matter notwithstanding.

 

[nasa1]

That is the essence of ressurrection. The question of "how are the dead raised" is tricky for this reason, and we are not given a technical answer, however remember that the body is not entierly physical either, that to be ressurrected requires that the very matter which died is reassembled.

We don't have about any matter in our bodies which we had ten years ago. However I still have the same body which I had ten years ago, matter notwithstanding.

I personally don't think that the resurrection has anything to do with the bodies we have now.


I also think that if God decided to bring a soul or spirit back for some particular reason, it would not have to be in the same body that it was previously in. The flesh counts for nothing.

I also think of Melchizedek. If Melchizedek was Christ, then one could say that Christ is a reincarnation of Melchizedek in some way.

NASA

 

[nasa1]

In all humility, let me suggest to you that more indepth study of scripture will help you to a more complete understanding of Gods word.

There are many inconsistences between what you believe and what is truth according to scripture.

I believe your heart is in the right place. Praise God. I do not judge, only wanting you to discover Gods truth as you are admittedly new in the faith.

I will never know everything, nor do I want to. Satan had perfect wisdom and yet turned.

We all see through a glass darkly. Anyway, yesterday the Lord put on my heart that He does not want me to label myself a Calvinist because that will interfere with the mission He has called me to - to be a member of every church, and to love every one of them and meet them all in my city. If I call myself a Calvinist then I will be dividing from those who are not Calvinist. So I must drop that title and just be happy with the title of Christian.

NASA

 

[McWilliams]

It is likely a good thing that you removed the Calvinist logo, at least until you come to a clearer understanding of the doctrines of grace and the truth of scripture supported by them! If you have a hunger to know truth and have a teachable spirit the Lord will surely bring understanding to you! We are always learning, growing and progressing in the knowledge of Christ! If not, then we are obviously not believers! Being a believer is consistent with hunger to know truth and to grow in His image and to bear fruit that is proof!

Charles Haddon Spurgeon said:
The doctrines of original sin, election, effectual calling, final perseverance, and all
those great truths which are called Calvinism—though Calvin was not the author of
them, but simply an able writer and preacher upon the subject—are, I believe, the
essential doctrines of the Gospel that is in Jesus Christ. Now, I do not ask you
whether you believe all this—it is possible you may not; but I believe you will before
you enter heaven. I am persuaded, that as God may have washed your hearts, he will
wash your brains before you enter heaven.

 

[McWilliams]

I also think that if God decided to bring a soul or spirit back for some particular reason, it would not have to be in the same body that it was previously in. The flesh counts for nothing.

Scripture tells us: It is appointed to men once to die and after that the judgment! Hebrews 9:27

 

[Epiphoskei]

I personally don't think that the resurrection has anything to do with the bodies we have now.


I also think that if God decided to bring a soul or spirit back for some particular reason, it would not have to be in the same body that it was previously in. The flesh counts for nothing.

I also think of Melchizedek. If Melchizedek was Christ, then one could say that Christ is a reincarnation of Melchizedek in some way.

NASA

Humans are not fully human without bodies. God created Adam "from the dust" and gave him spirit. He did not create him "from the spirit" and give him a body of dust.

And Melchizadek wasn't Christ. Melchizadek was like Christ. Or more correctly, Christ was a priest in the same way Melchizadek was, without regard to Aaron.

 

[nasa1]

Scripture tells us: It is appointed to men once to die and after that the judgment! Hebrews 9:27

Not exactly. The Great White Throne Judgement does not happen until after Jesus returns tom earth, so its yes and yet no.

NASA

 

[nasa1]

Humans are not fully human without bodies. God created Adam "from the dust" and gave him spirit. He did not create him "from the spirit" and give him a body of dust.

And Melchizadek wasn't Christ. Melchizadek was like Christ. Or more correctly, Christ was a priest in the same way Melchizadek was, without regard to Aaron.

Would all Calvinists agree with you? I have heard many scholars say that Melchizedek was Christ. If He was not, then I guess Melchizedek is a different god, who has no beginning and no end and no father and no mother!



Anyway, I think that there is more than one god in the sense that there is Jesus and the Spirit and the Father. If Jesus and the Father were talking with each other in heaven before Christ came to earth - you know, living together and fellowshipping together, then there at least two gods but they call themselves One God because they are One in Spirit. But technically God is more than one; Elohim is plural.
I guess Melchizedek could also be another part of the One God, and maybe there is actually 4, not 3, parts to the God head! It would not surprise me in the least if that were true.
NASA

 

[nasa1]

It is likely a good thing that you removed the Calvinist logo, at least until you come to a clearer understanding of the doctrines of grace and the truth of scripture supported by them! If you have a hunger to know truth and have a teachable spirit the Lord will surely bring understanding to you! We are always learning, growing and progressing in the knowledge of Christ! If not, then we are obviously not believers! Being a believer is consistent with hunger to know truth and to grow in His image and to bear fruit that is proof!

Charles Haddon Spurgeon said:
The doctrines of original sin, election, effectual calling, final perseverance, and all
those great truths which are called Calvinism—though Calvin was not the author of
them, but simply an able writer and preacher upon the subject—are, I believe, the
essential doctrines of the Gospel that is in Jesus Christ. Now, I do not ask you
whether you believe all this—it is possible you may not; but I believe you will before
you enter heaven. I am persuaded, that as God may have washed your hearts, he will
wash your brains before you enter heaven.

The Lord has told me that it is a sin to call oneself a "Calvinist" or a "Lutheran" or whatever. He said that is like saying, "I follow Apollos." Christ is not divided. John Calvin did not die for me. The Creeds of Dort did not provide for my salvation. We must put all these titles away and just say, "I follow Christ."


No more titles of division. No more saying that the true way is to become a Calvinist. That is a sin and it divides and it also judges the body.

Let us not be Armineans or Calvinist but be family in Christ.

NASA

 

[Epiphoskei]

Would all Calvinists agree with you? I have heard many scholars say that Melchizedek was Christ. If He was not, then I guess Melchizedek is a different god, who has no beginning and no end and no father and no mother!

Melchizadek had no geneology, no written father or mother. The point of the author of hebrews is that Melchizadek had no levite geneology, or any geneology recorded in scripture. He certainly did not mean that he did not have biological parents, or that he was anything other than a normal human who was born, lived, and died. To make more of "without father and mother" would be a case of failing to recognize figures of speech.