Video Dialogue on Creation and Evolution

[Assyrian]

Evolution says: new form of life can be made without God.

That is the hallmark of sin.

No more than human reproductive biology says each one of us was formed without God.

Evolution says: human evolved from chimp.

That is an explicit blasphemy.

A Christian scientist can not close one eye to these obvious conflicts and compromise the faith.

Interesting how creationism leads you to despise God's creation. Don't you believe God create apes? Didn't he refer to their creation as 'good'? Do you think God's creation of apes is in anyway inferior to his creation of dust? Or is there more of God's image in the mud on the ground than there is in an ape? Yet in your mind God forming mankind in his image over hundreds of millions of years through the evolution of mammals and apes is blasphemy while making a man in his image out of mud is all right?

 

[juvenissun]

This post still makes the assumption that both of the sins mentioned ARE sins. This is the problem most people have with it, the absolutism.

Ha ha ... If there were no absolutism, then there will be no relativism. Something absolute must be set first.

 

[juvenissun]

No, it doesn't. Honestly, juvie, if you haven't understood that by now, with people here daily informing you that evolution in no way discounts God (that would be a conflation of agency and mechanism), you're hopeless.


Ditto. You should really start listening when people correct you. Humans are not evolved chimps; humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

Of course I know the argument that God is involved in evolution process all the time. I think it is a very very immature idea and there is no established content of this idea. This is THE major flaw of TE to me.

I also know human is said to be evolved from a creature which I can never remember its name. I don't like to use the common ancestor term. Nobody understand what it is.

You underestimated me, Mallon. I am not wasting my time here.

 

[juvenissun]

No more than human reproductive biology says each one of us was formed without God.


Interesting how creationism leads you to despise God's creation. Don't you believe God create apes? Didn't he refer to their creation as 'good'? Do you think God's creation of apes is in anyway inferior to his creation of dust? Or is there more of God's image in the mud on the ground than there is in an ape? Yet in your mind God forming mankind in his image over hundreds of millions of years through the evolution of mammals and apes is blasphemy while making a man in his image out of mud is all right?

I was careful when I alleged that to believe in evolution is a (hidden) sin. Hidden means that it is not obvious, as it is not directly mentioned in the Bible and it is strongly supported by science. It is a sin, as I said many times, because it discredits God's work, no matter how would TE try to stuff God into the process. Rather, it would make more sense if God is taken away from the process.

God creates apes, good. God creates human, very good. But mistakenly think that apes changed to human, NOT good.

There may be thousands of physical/chemical/biological/geological "evidences" that support ape changed to human. But evidence, no matter how many, does not prove anything. And as I argued on issues of humanity, regardless the scientific evidences, even a child can see that ape is ape and human is human. That is exactly what God tells us through the wise king Solomon.

 

[Mallon]

Of course I know the argument that God is involved in evolution process all the time. I think it is a very very immature idea and there is no established content of this idea.

Why do you believe God acting through evolution is an "immature idea"? The Bible provides countless examples of God acting in nature (mention of God sending rain, providing food for animals, sending rainbows, etc.). Why should evolution be any different? It's a natural process like any other.

You underestimated me, Mallon.

Honestly, I don't think I have.

 

[Cabal]

Ha ha ... If there were no absolutism, then there will be no relativism. Something absolute must be set first.

Sure. But you do not necessarily possess it.

 

[Assyrian]

I was careful when I alleged that to believe in evolution is a (hidden) sin. Hidden means that it is not obvious, as it is not directly mentioned in the Bible and it is strongly supported by science.

Not obvious? Not directly mentioned? Where is it is even indirectly mentioned? So hidden really means not actually mentioned in the bible at all? Now there is nothing wrong with taking what we read in the bible and trying to come to our own limited understanding of the eternal God and how he works in the world. It is a problem if you condemn others on the basis of your own personal opinions. Careful? Hardly. Matt 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

And how does evolution being strongly supported by science make it sinful too? Are atoms sinful because they are strongly supported by science? Is heliocentrism sinful, did the church fall into deep sin when it accepted heliocentrism because it was strongly supported by science? Is evolution even more sinful because it is even better supported than heliocentrism? This makes not sense. Somehow the evidence that evolution is true has been twisted in the minds of creationists into evidence that it is wrong? What can free a creationist from such twisted doublethink?

It is a sin, as I said many times, because it discredits God's work, no matter how would TE try to stuff God into the process. Rather, it would make more sense if God is taken away from the process.

You didn't answer me about human reproduction. The bible says God formed me in my mother's womb, that he has created me. Does reproductive biology discredit God's work? Does human reproductive biology make more sense if God is taken away from the process? Jesus tells us that God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Does meteorology discredit God's work? Does meteorology make more sense if God is taken away from the process? We thank God for our daily bread, does believing in farmers and bakers discredit God? What creationist have forgotten is that God works all things according to the counsel of his will Eph 1:11, upholding all things by the word of his power Heb 1:3. Evolution is no different form reproductive biology, meteorology plate, gravity, tectonics or atomic physic. Creationist have lost a very basic appreciation of the power of God and how he works through everything in the universe. Your condemnation of your fellow believers is not just based on your theology rather than on what the bible says, it is based on bad theology.

God creates apes, good. God creates human, very good. But mistakenly think that apes changed to human, NOT good.

Sure, if it is a mistake. But it God did from the human race from ape ancestors it is just as good as moulding us from a lump of clay.

There may be thousands of physical/chemical/biological/geological "evidences" that support ape changed to human. But evidence, no matter how many, does not prove anything. And as I argued on issues of humanity, regardless the scientific evidences, even a child can see that ape is ape and human is human.

And any child can see that the earth is flat and that the sun goes round the earth. So what? Christians in the past thought science was contradicting the literal meaning of scripture when it denied a flat earth and heliocentrism. You even had believers ignoring all the evidence and saying you still can't prove the world is round, and such wilful blindness is still bringing the gospel into disrepute.

That is exactly what God tells us through the wise king Solomon.

Oddly enough it was Solomon who actually kept apes (1Kings 10:22) who came to the realisation that we are animals too.
Eccles 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts.
In fact according to Solomon God wants us all to realise we are animals.

 

[Assyrian]

I was careful when I alleged that to believe in evolution is a (hidden) sin. Hidden means that it is not obvious, as it is not directly mentioned in the Bible and it is strongly supported by science.

Not obvious? Not directly mentioned? Where is it is even indirectly mentioned? So hidden really means not actually mentioned in the bible at all? Now there is nothing wrong with taking what we read in the bible and trying to come to our own limited understanding of the eternal God and how he works in the world. It is a problem if you condemn others on the basis of your own personal opinions. Careful? Hardly. Matt 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

And how does evolution being strongly supported by science make it sinful too? Are atoms sinful because they are strongly supported by science? Is heliocentrism sinful, did the church fall into deep sin when it accepted heliocentrism because it was strongly supported by science? Is evolution even more sinful because it is even better supported than heliocentrism? This makes not sense. Somehow the evidence that evolution is true has been twisted in the minds of creationists into evidence that it is wrong? What can free a creationist from such twisted doublethink?

It is a sin, as I said many times, because it discredits God's work, no matter how would TE try to stuff God into the process. Rather, it would make more sense if God is taken away from the process.

You didn't answer me about human reproduction. The bible says God formed me in my mother's womb, that he has created me. Does reproductive biology discredit God's work? Does human reproductive biology make more sense if God is taken away from the process? Jesus tells us that God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Does meteorology discredit God's work? Does meteorology make more sense if God is taken away from the process? We thank God for our daily bread, does believing in farmers and bakers discredit God? What creationist have forgotten is that God works all things according to the counsel of his will Eph 1:11, upholding all things by the word of his power Heb 1:3. Evolution is no different from reproductive biology, meteorology plate, gravity, tectonics or atomic physic. Creationist have lost a very basic appreciation of the power of God and how he works through everything in the universe. Your condemnation of your fellow believers is not just based on your theology rather than on what the bible says, it is based on bad theology.

God creates apes, good. God creates human, very good. But mistakenly think that apes changed to human, NOT good.

Sure, if it is a mistake. But if God did from the human race from ape ancestors it is just as good as moulding us from a lump of clay.

There may be thousands of physical/chemical/biological/geological "evidences" that support ape changed to human. But evidence, no matter how many, does not prove anything. And as I argued on issues of humanity, regardless the scientific evidences, even a child can see that ape is ape and human is human.

And any child can see that the earth is flat and that the sun goes round the earth. So what? Christians in the past thought science was contradicting the literal meaning of scripture when it denied a flat earth and heliocentrism. You even had believers ignoring all the evidence and saying you still can't prove the world is round, and such wilful blindness is still bringing the gospel into disrepute.

That is exactly what God tells us through the wise king Solomon.

Oddly enough it was Solomon who actually kept apes (1Kings 10:22) who came to the realisation that we are animals too.
Eccles 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts.
In fact according to Solomon God wants us all to realise we are animals.

 

[crawfish]

Of course I know the argument that God is involved in evolution process all the time. I think it is a very very immature idea and there is no established content of this idea. This is THE major flaw of TE to me.

I have no idea what you mean here. If it is not well-established that God works through nature or through natural processes, then you are excluding God from quite a lot of things. I'm sure you do not believe that, so please post exactly what you do mean.

I also know human is said to be evolved from a creature which I can never remember its name. I don't like to use the common ancestor term. Nobody understand what it is.

Me, I prefer to not use misleading terms.

 

[gluadys]

I also know human is said to be evolved from a creature which I can never remember its name.

Hominid.

I don't like to use the common ancestor term. Nobody understand what it is.

I suppose you don't understand "grandfather" either. Must make it pretty difficult to understand how Abraham could be the common ancestor of many nations.

 

[juvenissun]

Hominid.






I suppose you don't understand "grandfather" either. Must make it pretty difficult to understand how Abraham could be the common ancestor of many nations.

I don't think so. Some told me once the name of an ape species.

Whenever I said that human evolved from chimp, knowledgeable evolutionist always correct me that I should not say that, but say the common ancestor thing. But if they know that I am not correct, why don't they spell out the species which directly evolved into human? Very few people, include you, know what exactly that thing is.

 

[Mallon]

I don't think so. Some told me once the name of an ape species.

Whenever I said that human evolved from chimp, knowledgeable evolutionist always correct me that I should not say that, but say the common ancestor thing. But if they know that I am not correct, why don't they spell out the species which directly evolved into human? Very few people, include you, know what exactly that thing is.

We have no way of knowing for certain which species gave rise to both humans and chimps (it's a technically of the cladistic method, where only sister taxa can be resolved). Still, we do know for certain that chimps did not give rise to humans. To say otherwise is to confuse the issue.

 

[juvenissun]

I have no idea what you mean here. If it is not well-established that God works through nature or through natural processes, then you are excluding God from quite a lot of things. I'm sure you do not believe that, so please post exactly what you do mean.

OK, this is what I learned from you people:

There are suggested evolution processes. This understanding is the same for both TE and atheism. The difference is that TE further suggests the evolution processes also include God's intervention in addition to the biological/genetic mechanism.

But that is it. TE explains no more than that.

Based on this simple idea given by TE, I can ask hundreds of questions on the mechanism of God's intervention. This is the reason I said that this idea is simply a very primitive idea with no content. TE should be written as T/E because there is no connection between T and E. And this is the impression I got from all the videos.

 

[Cabal]

OK, this is what I learned from you people:

There are suggested evolution processes. This understanding is the same for both TE and atheism. The difference is that TE further suggests the evolution processes also include God's intervention in addition to the biological/genetic mechanism.

But that is it. TE explains no more than that.

Based on this simple idea given by TE, I can ask hundreds of questions on the mechanism of God's intervention. This is the reason I said that this idea is simply a very primitive idea with no content. TE should be written as T/E because there is no connection between T and E. And this is the impression I got from all the videos.

TE isn't meant to explain anything - unless you focus on the scientific component.

And let's not kid ourselves, creationism has zero content of that kind.

 

[pgp_protector]

God works in Evolution the same He works in the Weather.
After all the Bible states God causes it to Rain on the Just & Unjust so He must be working in the weather right?

 

[Mallon]

TEs don't generally believe God intervenes, juvie. Most TEs here believe that God sustains. He sustains evolution the same way He sustains gravity, the climate, or human development. Honestly, if you have a problem with theistic evolution, you should similarly have a problem with theistic gravity, theistic climatology, or theistic human development. Your problem apparently isn't with evolution uniquely, it's with science in general. You have no robust theology of nature.

 

[juvenissun]

Not obvious? Not directly mentioned? Where is it is even indirectly mentioned? So hidden really means not actually mentioned in the bible at all? Now there is nothing wrong with taking what we read in the bible and trying to come to our own limited understanding of the eternal God and how he works in the world. It is a problem if you condemn others on the basis of your own personal opinions. Careful? Hardly. Matt 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

And how does evolution being strongly supported by science make it sinful too? Are atoms sinful because they are strongly supported by science? Is heliocentrism sinful, did the church fall into deep sin when it accepted heliocentrism because it was strongly supported by science? Is evolution even more sinful because it is even better supported than heliocentrism? This makes not sense. Somehow the evidence that evolution is true has been twisted in the minds of creationists into evidence that it is wrong? What can free a creationist from such twisted doublethink?

You didn't answer me about human reproduction. The bible says God formed me in my mother's womb, that he has created me. Does reproductive biology discredit God's work? Does human reproductive biology make more sense if God is taken away from the process? Jesus tells us that God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Does meteorology discredit God's work? Does meteorology make more sense if God is taken away from the process? We thank God for our daily bread, does believing in farmers and bakers discredit God? What creationist have forgotten is that God works all things according to the counsel of his will Eph 1:11, upholding all things by the word of his power Heb 1:3. Evolution is no different from reproductive biology, meteorology plate, gravity, tectonics or atomic physic. Creationist have lost a very basic appreciation of the power of God and how he works through everything in the universe. Your condemnation of your fellow believers is not just based on your theology rather than on what the bible says, it is based on bad theology.

Sure, if it is a mistake. But if God did from the human race from ape ancestors it is just as good as moulding us from a lump of clay.

And any child can see that the earth is flat and that the sun goes round the earth. So what? Christians in the past thought science was contradicting the literal meaning of scripture when it denied a flat earth and heliocentrism. You even had believers ignoring all the evidence and saying you still can't prove the world is round, and such wilful blindness is still bringing the gospel into disrepute.

Oddly enough it was Solomon who actually kept apes (1Kings 10:22) who came to the realisation that we are animals too.
Eccles 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts.
In fact according to Solomon God wants us all to realise we are animals.

I am not condemning anyone. I expressed my opinion that to believe in evolution is, in fact, a sin. Supporting evolution by scientific evidences may not be a sinful act. But discredits God's creation by evolution is a sin. Ask yourself: when a TE person explain/argue evolution to/with people, where is the role of God in his/her argument? That is the most obvious expression of sin.

As for the human birth, I have argued this in another thread. The reproduction of life is biology. If you like, you may say it is a process of evolution. But human spirit is not reproduced by any biological process. By the spirit, not by his or her body, a human individual is identified. In this critical sense, human is not evolved from anything or from anyone, which include the parents.

 

[Mallon]

Evidently, our friend juvie is a deist...

 

[juvenissun]

TE isn't meant to explain anything - unless you focus on the scientific component.

And let's not kid ourselves, creationism has zero content of that kind.

But TE needs to include at least some T in E, which TE has never bothered to do. Not only that, TE always insists E by completely excluding the T.

 

[juvenissun]

God works in Evolution the same He works in the Weather.
After all the Bible states God causes it to Rain on the Just & Unjust so He must be working in the weather right?

So, please give me a solid example on how did God work on evolution. Which evolution process, or special situation, is touched by the finger of God? What would happen to that particular evolution process if God did not do the magic touch?