Video Dialogue on Creation and Evolution

[Mallon]

Hi folks,

JT898 is a youtuber who has upload some great video series about the evolution-creation dialogue. Here's a series I just finished watching and greatly enjoyed:


http://www.youtube.com/user/JT898#p/c/CB03ED07552526AE/0/fBroIKlyiAU

http://www.youtube.com/user/JT898#p/c/CB03ED07552526AE/1/jWGP4_bqsxA

http://www.youtube.com/user/JT898#p/c/CB03ED07552526AE/2/oBR9bHiWEb0

http://www.youtube.com/user/JT898#p/c/CB03ED07552526AE/3/DirWcuGIiI8

http://www.youtube.com/user/JT898#p/c/CB03ED07552526AE/4/zo9BxW3fjOw

http://www.youtube.com/user/JT898#p/c/CB03ED07552526AE/5/CvhvABnAsbM

Despite all the polemics being posted here lately, it's nice to hear some sober thoughts from some educated people on the subject. Check out JT898's profile for more great videos along these lines.

 

[marlowe007]

Thanks for these.

JT898 had PM'ed me a few months ago with links to a lecture concerning science and Christianity, but the name of the lecturer eludes me...

 

[crawfish]

Thanks!

 

[marlowe007]

Thanks for these.

JT898 had PM'ed me a few months ago with links to a lecture concerning science and Christianity, but the name of the lecturer eludes me...

Just done a quick search, and his name is Gordon J Glover;

http://www.youtube.com/user/glovergj#p/u/19/Fperp1Mezt0

 

[Mallon]

Aye, Glover's stuff is EXCELLENT. Must-see TV.

 

[juvenissun]

I understand that some homosexual people "really believe" and have strong faith in Christianity. They said these two do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Would you say that they are in a similar spiritual situation as people in TE?

 

[Mallon]

I understand that some homosexual people "really believe" and have strong faith in Christianity. They said these two do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Would you say that they are in a similar spiritual situation as people in TE?

I don't understand what you're asking.

 

[juvenissun]

I don't understand what you're asking.

I understand what you are saying.

 

[Cabal]

I understand that some homosexual people "really believe" and have strong faith in Christianity. They said these two do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Would you say that they are in a similar spiritual situation as people in TE?

If you're implying they are mutually exclusive, then no.

 

[crawfish]

I understand that some homosexual people "really believe" and have strong faith in Christianity. They said these two do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Would you say that they are in a similar spiritual situation as people in TE?

I would say that they're making a similar argument, but each must be evaluated on individual merit.

 

[juvenissun]

I would say that they're making a similar argument, but each must be evaluated on individual merit.

One of the major message in those videos is that faith and evolution can coexist. That is simply TE.

The reason that I compared it with the coexistence between faith and homosexual is that homosexual is an obvious sin. One could not have faith, and at the same time, fully justify a sin.

Evolution, is a hidden sin, but it is justified by the so-called mounting evidences. So, TE is a compromise of faith in the name of science. It is, in fact, of the same nature as the sin of homosexual.

 

[Mallon]

Evolution, is a hidden sin

Evolution is a creation of God. It cannot be sinful.

 

[Jase]

One of the major message in those videos is that faith and evolution can coexist. That is simply TE.

The reason that I compared it with the coexistence between faith and homosexual is that homosexual is an obvious sin. One could not have faith, and at the same time, fully justify a sin.

Evolution, is a hidden sin, but it is justified by the so-called mounting evidences. So, TE is a compromise of faith in the name of science. It is, in fact, of the same nature as the sin of homosexual.

As a bisexual/gay Messianic Jew/Theistic Evolutionist, I take great insult in your assertions Juvenissun. You can pretend bigotry and intolerance is acting like Jesus all you want. Homosexuality is not an obvious sin anymore than heterosexuality is a sin. And contrary to popular fundamentalist belief, the Bible is not even slightly clear on this issue.

 

[juvenissun]

Evolution is a creation of God. It cannot be sinful.

Evolution says: new form of life can be made without God.

That is the hallmark of sin.

Evolution says: human evolved from chimp.

That is an explicit blasphemy.

A Christian scientist can not close one eye to these obvious conflicts and compromise the faith.

 

[metherion]

Evolution says: new form of life can be made without God.

That is the hallmark of sin.

Evolution says: human evolved from chimp.

That is an explicit blasphemy.

A Christian scientist can not close one eye to these obvious conflicts and compromise the faith.

No. Evolution says that new forms of life come into being through slight, successive modifications. It says nothing about God being involved in the process or not. If you choose to take the stand that evolution says God ISN"T involved, then I guess God wasn't involved in making things like nylonase. I believe He was. But believing God was or was not responsible for it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Evolution also states that humans and chimps have a common ancestor, not that humans came from chimps. It is not explicit blasphemy, it suggests that being in God's own image might not be literal. That's all. And anyways, if we are in God's own image, and God's own image is physical, then chimps and the other great apes sure have a lot in common with the image of God for being animals, now, don't they?

And also, about your homosexuality comparison: I hate how underhanded people always seem to be... forgetting the the OT says the ACT of homosexual sex is what is wrong and and that the epistles say PRACTICING homosexuals... which means homosexual sex is no more or less sinful than me (an unmarried man) having sex with a woman. And nothing in the Bible says just the state of being homosexual is wrong. Seriously, stop. It's dishonest, hateful, and very unChristlike.

Metherion

 

[juvenissun]

As a bisexual/gay Messianic Jew/Theistic Evolutionist, I take great insult in your assertions Juvenissun. You can pretend bigotry and intolerance is acting like Jesus all you want. Homosexuality is not an obvious sin anymore than heterosexuality is a sin. And contrary to popular fundamentalist belief, the Bible is not even slightly clear on this issue.

Very good. You are the very example on what I am talking about. Please don't take my comment as an insult. It is an honest debate. But I will not debate this issue on this forum.

I think a Christian could have an endless debate with you on the issue of homosexuality, just like a creationist can debate with TE forever on the issue of evolution. Now we see an "obvious sin" to some Christians, becomes not so obvious to some other "faithful Christians". No wonder the hidden-behind-science sinful idea of evolution is openly and strongly advocated by so many "faithful Christian scientists".

I know. Anything is debatable. Any one in the Ten Commandments is perfectly debatable, yet maintains a strong faith to God. Do you know that? This is exactly the effect and the purpose of the tree of good/evil in the Garden. God says: don't eat its fruit.

 

[Cabal]

Very good. You are the very example on what I am talking about. Please don't take my comment as an insult. It is an honest debate. But I will not debate this issue on this forum.

I think a Christian could have an endless debate with you on the issue of homosexuality, just like a creationist can debate with TE forever on the issue of evolution. Now we see an "obvious sin" to some Christians, becomes not so obvious to some other "faithful Christians". No wonder the hidden-behind-science sinful idea of evolution is openly and strongly advocated by so many "faithful Christian scientists".

I know. Anything is debatable. Any one in the Ten Commandments is perfectly debatable, yet maintains a strong faith to God. Do you know that? This is exactly the effect and the purpose of the tree of good/evil in the Garden. God says: don't eat its fruit.

This post still makes the assumption that both of the sins mentioned ARE sins. This is the problem most people have with it, the absolutism.

 

[Mallon]

Evolution says: new form of life can be made without God.

No, it doesn't. Honestly, juvie, if you haven't understood that by now, with people here daily informing you that evolution in no way discounts God (that would be a conflation of agency and mechanism), you're hopeless.

Evolution says: human evolved from chimp.

Ditto. You should really start listening when people correct you. Humans are not evolved chimps; humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

 

[crawfish]

One of the major message in those videos is that faith and evolution can coexist. That is simply TE.

The reason that I compared it with the coexistence between faith and homosexual is that homosexual is an obvious sin. One could not have faith, and at the same time, fully justify a sin.

Evolution, is a hidden sin, but it is justified by the so-called mounting evidences. So, TE is a compromise of faith in the name of science. It is, in fact, of the same nature as the sin of homosexual.

Attributing nature to God is no sin. I'm sure that, at one point, if one claimed that the earth was not the center of the universe there were those that would have considered it a sin - was it?

I, and most other TE's here I'd suspect, are not TE's because of a lack of faith, but because of a strong one.

Evolution says: new form of life can be made without God.

That is the hallmark of sin.

Are you just trying to get our goat, or do you really think this? We are TE's, not DE's. All creation is intentionally and purposefully created by God, regardless of the methods used.

No wonder these arguments go on forever, if you refuse to even try to understand us.

Evolution says: human evolved from chimp.

That is an explicit blasphemy.

Technically, evolution says that humans and chimps evolved from the same common ancestor. TE's accept it because the evidence is overwhelming. Additionally, the bible strongly implies that God created man from the raw materials of the earth.

A lot of what is considered truth today by evangelicals was once considered blasphemy. I prefer to let God's handiwork speak for itself.

A Christian scientist can not close one eye to these obvious conflicts and compromise the faith.

If you think any of us are closing our eyes to anything, you haven't been paying attention. Which, based on your posts, I strongly suspect. You might want to go back and read James 1:19 again.

 

[Assyrian]

One of the major message in those videos is that faith and evolution can coexist. That is simply TE.

The reason that I compared it with the coexistence between faith and homosexual is that homosexual is an obvious sin. One could not have faith, and at the same time, fully justify a sin.

Evolution, is a hidden sin, but it is justified by the so-called mounting evidences. So, TE is a compromise of faith in the name of science. It is, in fact, of the same nature as the sin of homosexual.

By 'hidden sin' you mean a sin not mentioned in the bible? We may disagree on our interpretation of Genesis, but what you are doing is making up new commandments to bind and condemn your fellow believers with: Thou shalt interpret the word of God literally, believe in a literal six day creation and a global flood for any other interpretation is unbelief and sin.

Of course once you start making up new laws and laying these heavy burdens on people shoulders, you are following in the footsteps of the Scribes Pharisees not Jesus. You open yourself up to being condemned by the same standards you condemn others, Matt 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. You have a particular problem Juv since you believe the earth is millions of years old unlike more literalist creationists who say the earth is 6000 years old. You accuse us of justifying our sin with the evidence, yet why do you believe the earth is millions of years old? But there isn't any refuge in 4004 BC creationism, because almost all YEC have bought into the scientific evidence for a heliocentrism and a round earth. There are plenty of passages you can interpret literally to teach geocentrism and a flat earth set on pillars. Yet why do YECs not believe this? Because they accept the scientific evidence and look for other ways to interpret these scripture. Exactly what they claim is sin and unbelief in TEs. A millennium and a half ago Cosmas Indicopleustes accused the church of unbelief and being partakers of the table of the Lord and the table of demons for accepting the pagan doctrine of a spherical earth. And here we are today, the same accusation being trotted out, only by people who do not even have Cosmas' consistency, who pick and choose which science they will accept, interpreting scripture in line with it, while condemning fellow believers who simply accept more science than they do.