Very deep study, not for the weak in faith.

[maco]

I would like to share this very deep study with you. I know it goes against all of today’s mainline teachings but so does many of things we believe. I would like to know your thoughts.

I had a question, which caused me to search the word of God to find the answer.

Here is the question.

Has anyone gone into heaven or received immortality prior to the second coming of Jesus?

Satan has surely distorted God’s truth over the years. He has caused many people to be led astray by twisting God’s word. He has done this from the beginning and is called the father of lies.

Many false doctrines have come about through the belief that the dead can be contacted or that there are people who are in heaven now before our Lord and Savior has called them up from their graves.

The praying of the rosary came about because of an appearing of Mary to three children. She taught them to pray the rosary. We know that God forbids repeating prayer in vain.

Matthew 6:7 "But when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

I know that Jesus was speaking of how He is the only one who has ever come down from heaven and could speak of things He has seen and has now ascended back into heaven. Even though He is referring to things He has seen in heaven He still has plainly said, no one ascended into heaven accept for Him.

John 3:12-13 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Jesus is the first to literllay and bodily ascend into heaven.

The Bibe is also very clear in that Jesus is the first to be raised from the dead never to see corruption, in other words, receieve immortality.

Acts 26:23 "that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.''

Acts 13:34 "And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: `I will give you the sure mercies of David.'

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ is the first fruit, in other words, the first to be raised from death unto immortality; everyone else will be raised and given immortality at His coming.

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Cr 15:51-54 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.''

This is a clear teaching of Scripture. To say that there are people who have been raised before Jesus and given immortality would nullify Jesus' first fruit status and firstborn right.

Acts 26:23 "that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.''

Acts 13:34 "And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: `I will give you the sure mercies of David.'

When we use God’s word as a whole to interpret God’s word we should both come to the same conclusion.

There is a key to good Bible interpretation and that is, never use verses to interpret the Bible, but rather, use the Bible to interpret the verses.

From my studying and testing of doctrines I have come to the conclusion that there are no immortal human beings in heaven at this point in the time. Jesus is the only one who has been raised by His Father unto immortality never to die again.

Satan has distorted God’s word over the years through his antichrist false system of worship.

One of the verses used to prove that there are immortal human beings in heaven right now is found in Revelation 5:8-9. People teach that because John saw these twenty-four elders there must be immortal humans in heaven now. Lets read it carefully and then we will use the Bible to interpret what’s happening in these verses.

Revelation 5:8-9 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation

If you read these chapters in the book of Revelation, in other words, the revealing of future things, beginning with chapter four, you will see that this vision John saw of the beast and twenty-four elders took place in a different setting from the proceeding first three chapters of the book of Revelation. Read carefully and notice how in the beginning of chapter four it says, “After these things” which is referring to all the things, which took place in the proceeding three chapters. Then a voice calls for John to come up and it shows John an open door, at which time John is immediately in the spirit. The voice was about to reveal to John something that was to take place further into even after what happened in the first three chapters. Notice how the voice tells John, “I will show you things which must take place after this” in other words, things that will take place further into the future even after what was revealed to John in the first three chapters of Revelation.

Revelation 4:1-2 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this. '' Immediately I was in the spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

What John was being shown, regarding the beasts, the twenty-four elders and the opening of the scroll in chapter five, was not literally happening while John was in the spirit seeing them, but rather, it was something that was to take place in the future, probably during the thousand-year millennium after the first resurrection. Knowing this, we can’t use these verses to prove that there are immortal human beings in heaven right now.

CONTINUE

 

[maco]

Now, regarding Enoch and Elijah. Many people have been taught to believe that Enoch and Elijah went to heaven where the Father dwells. Without really testing this belief against the Bible people would be led to believe this is biblically sound. But we have seen that this belief contradicts the rest of the Bible, as well as, Jesus’ own words.

Jesus makes it very clear regarding who has gone to heaven and who was the first to be raised to immortality.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Jesus made this statement very clear that no one, except for Himself, has ever ascended into heaven to where the Father dwells and that Jesus is the firstfriuts from the dead. This statement causes me to question the belief that Enoch and Elijah or anyone else has gone into heaven.

God calls us to test everything and hold onto that which is good.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

With this, lets see what the Bible says, as a whole, regarding Enoch and Elijah.

Lets start with Enoch first.

Hebrews 11:1-12 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. By faith Enoch was translated so that he did not see death, "and was not found because God had translated him''; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would afterward receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.By faith he sojourned in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Here in the book of Hebrews we have a whole list of faithful people. At the end of this list it says that they all died, including Enoch, without receiving the promise. We know that the promise was something in the future because they all looked forward to it in the same way we look forward to it. The promise was the coming kingdom of God in the new heaven and new earth.

So how do we understand the fact that all these faithful people died without receiving the promise yet it seems to be saying that Enoch did not die? Is this a contradiction of Scripture? If we study it more closely we will see that its not saying what we're making it say.

As we read these verses with a pure heart we will see that they say nothing of Enoch going to heaven. The teaching that says Enoch went to heaven is a conclusion that man has come to in reading these verses but nowhere does it say that Enoch went to heaven. All it says is that God translated him so that he should not see death.

When these verses speak of what happened to Enoch they use some strange words. Because these are strange words we will have to use the Bible to interpret them.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

The NT translators chose to use the word, (translate) probably because of their theological mindset of believing that the dead are alive somewhere else.

When looking at the word, (translate) used by the NT translators we have to keep in mind that these verses in the NT are explaining what happened to Enoch in the OT. Lets go back to the OT and see what it says regarding Enoch.

Gen 5:23-24 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

The word, (translate) in the NT is a word that is being used by the translators when describing what God did with Enoch in the OT but it’s not the same word being use in the OT. The NT word, (translate) opens our mind for all kinds of misinterpretations.

We also know from the OT that God said "ALL THE DAYS OF ENOCH WERE 365 YEARS". Why were Enoch’s days only 365 years? Because God took him and he was not. These are the words being used in the OT.

So what does this all mean?

We know from the Bible that when God says, "All the days of ______ were ______" it means the person died.

Genesis 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.

Genesis 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

Genesis 5:11 So all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died.

Genesis 5:17 So all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred and ninety-five years; and he died.

So now, what does it mean when God says someone (is not) because God took him? These are some strange words.

So we don't come to our own conclusion in understanding what God meant when He says the person, (is not) because God (took him) we will have to go to the Bible and learn how God uses these phrases in other verses. In doing this we will not come to a false conclusion or misinterpret what God was saying.

The first verse is found in Genesis 42:13.

Genesis 42:13 And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not.

The question we need to answer in this above verse is, who is this one, who is not.

The one, who is not, in the above verse is the son who died. A couple verses ahead in Genesis 44:20 tells us who the one (who is not) was.

Genesis 44:20 And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him.

The one (who is not) was the son who died. So when God uses the phrase, "was not" He is referring to someone who died.

Lets look at another verse that speaks of someone who (was not).

Matthew 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Rachel was crying for her children because THEY ARE NOT, in other words, they died.

Lets look at another verse that gives us a very clear picture of what God means when He says someone is not.

Psalms 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

This person died and was not. The words, "They looked for him but he could not be found" are very important to keep in mind because it’s referring to this person who died. Now read Hebrews again and pay close attention to similar wording when referring to what happened to Enoch.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Because Enoch obeyed God's word by living a life pleasing to God, God took him so that he should not see death. God took Enoch so that he SHOULD not see death. Which death is God referring to here? Is it the death that we all have to face or is it the second death?

I believe God was referring to the second death because He makes it clear that Enoch walked with God and pleased God.

Revelation 2:11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.'' '

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

CONTINUE

 

[maco]

The fact that Enoch obeyed God's word makes him a righteous man. Are righteous and merciful men taken away, in other words, do they die? Yes, God does take them away but they won't see death, the second death because they obeyed God and overcame.

Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perishes, and no man takes it to heart; merciful men are taken away, while no one considers that the righteous is taken away from evil.

God says the same thing about us. He tells us that if we obey His word we too will not see death referring to the second death.

John 8:51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.''

Sometimes the translator’s use of words in the NT can cause confusion.

Now, I want to look at something is Psalms that will help us to better understand what happened to Enoch.

Psalms 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

This word, (passed away) is a word being used to speak of someone dying. This person died and was not and could not be found.

These are the same words being used in Hebrews when speaking of what happened to Enoch.

The use of this word, (passed away) has led to the confusion in Hebrews. Lets look at the thought that these words bring out of Scripture.

This word, (passed away) is the Strong's number #5674 and is found in Job 33:18.

Job 33:18 He keeps back his soul from the Pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

The word, (perishing) in Job is the Strong's number #5674.

Lets see how Strong's defines this word. Pay close attention the KJV wording found in Hebrews when referring to Enoch's translation.

Strong's Ref. # 5674

Romanized `abar
Pronounced aw-bar'

a primitive root; to cross over; used very widely of any transition (literal or figurative; transitive, intransitive, intensive, causative); specifically, to cover (in copulation):

KJV--alienate, alter, X at all, beyond, bring (over, through), carry over, (over-)come (on, over), conduct (over), convey over, current, deliver, do away, enter, escape, fail, gender, get over, (make) go (away, beyond, by, forth, his way, in, on, over, through), have away (more), lay, meddle, overrun, make partition, (cause to, give, make to, over) pass(-age, along, away, beyond, by, -enger, on, out, over, through), (cause to, make) + proclaim(-amation), perish, provoke to anger, put away, rage, + raiser of taxes, remove, send over, set apart, + shave, cause to (make) sound, X speedily, X sweet smelling, take(away), (make to) transgress(-or), translate, turn away, [way-]faring man, be wrath.

Did you notice how the KJ could have used the words, translate, take away, perish or remove in Hebrews in place of the word, translate. These words would better help us understand that Enoch did in fact die and would line up with the rest of the Bible.

The words, took him or taken away, can mean the person died as seen with Enoch. Lets look at another verse that uses the word, taken away, when referring to someone who has died.

Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand.'

Knowing that Enoch lived 365 years and was not because God took him tells me that Enoch died. But because Enoch had the testimony that he walked with God before God took him tells me that he should not see death, the second death. The KJ translators either struggled with trying to translate these OT words based on their own theology of the dead living on after death or it was purposely done by the antichrist beast kingdom to set the stage for the end time delusions of sorceries, contacting the dead and the appearing of Mary to deceive the world.

Now, what about Elijah?

It says that Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Again we have to keep in mind Jesus' statement that no one has literally ascended into heaven except for Him.

So what does it mean when it says Elijah was taken up to heaven?

2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

The KJV uses the word, (heaven), which can be misleading. The clearer word that should be used is (sky). The reason for this is because the word (sky) and (heaven) are interchangeable depending on which heaven is being referred to. God took Elijah to a different location by way of the sky. As a matter of fact, the people knew that God was going to do this before it happened.

2 Kings 2:5 Then the students at Jericho came to Elisha and asked him, "Do you know that the Lord is going to take away your master today?'' "Will you please be quiet?'' he commanded. "Of course I know it!''

They knew that God was going to take Elijah from them and move him to another location. They even offered to look for him when it happened.

2Kings 2:16 "Elisha,'' they said, "just say the word and fifty of our best men will search the wilderness for your master (Elijah); perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has left him on some mountain or in some ravine.'' "No,'' Elisha said, "don't bother.''

CONTINUE

 

[maco]

Elijah was taken somewhere else on earth. The fact that Elijah wrote a letter to the king years after he was caught up to the sky by God tells me that Elijah was still on earth years later.

2 Chronicles 21:12 Then Elijah the prophet wrote him this letter: "The Lord God of your ancestor David says that because you have not followed in the good ways of your father Jehoshaphat, nor the good ways of KingAsa.

God caught up Elijah to a different location on earth. This is not uncommon for God to do. We have God doing the same thing withPhillip.

Acts 8:39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

Did God take Phillip to heaven? No. God took Phillip to another location on earth.

Acts8:40 Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesare.

Now, in the transfiguration we have Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus.

Matthew 17:3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

According to Jesus’ own words, this appearing of Moses and Elijah was a vision.

Matthew 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.''

What we know from other Biblical accounts of visions is that they don’t have to be a literal reality. Even if this was a literal reality it gives no indication on whether or not they came up from the grave for this appearing or came down from heaven. We know that the Bible tells us that Jesus is the first one raised from death to immortality and the only one who has ascended into heaven. So according to Scripture they could not have come down from heaven. Prior to the resurrection at the second coming of Jesus no one has immortality or is living in heaven. This is what makes the resurrection day so glorious for all.

Now what about the teaching that says Moses' was resurrected?

We have been taught to believe that Moses was resurrected prior to the second coming of Jesus. But this is a contradiction of Jesus’ own words. Not only that, nowhere throughout the whole Bible do we find Moses being resurrected. So what happened to Moses? The Bible is clear, he died and was buried and to this day we don't know where he was buried.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor abated. And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigorabated.

But some people believe and teach that Moses was raised from the dead to immortality and is now in heaven. Those who believe this use Jude as their proof text.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses...

Again, we find nowhere in the OT do we find Moses being resurrected nor do we find a dispute over Moses' body.

Second, to believe that Moses was raised from the dead is biblically unsound and comes against God's resurrection plan for the last day.

John 11:23-24 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

If Moses were raised from the dead and given immortality then that would make him the firstborn from the dead. This is a complete contradiction of Scripture. The Bible is very clear when it says, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead and He is the only one who has ascended into heaven.

So what is Jude really saying?

When Jude speaks of the dispute between Michael and the devil over Moses' body Jude was not referring to Moses' literal body. The KJV used the word (body) but this word in not accurate. The word that should have been used is the word (slave or servant). Refer to Strong's number #4983.

Strong's Ref. # 4983

Romanized soma
Pronounced so'-mah

from GSN4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively:

KJV--bodily, body, slave.

Now notice how the word (soma #4983) used in Revelation 18:13.

Revelation 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves (4983), and souls of men.

The dispute taking place in the OT was over Moses' servant. Where in the Bible do we find a dispute between an Angel and the devil over Moses' servant?

We find it word for word in Zechariah 3 where the Angel of Lord (Michael) disputed with Satan (Devil) over the high priest Joshua. The priesthood came through Moses, which makes Joshua a servant to Moses.

Numbers 11:28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

This Joshua in the above verse is not the same Joshua in Zechariah 3:1-5 but you can see how they were called Moses' servants.

If you read Zechariah 3:1-5 you will find the same exact wording being used as in Jude leading us to believe that this was the dispute Jude was referring to.

Lets compare the verses in both these books.

Zechariah 3:1-2 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. And the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?''

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body (servant) of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!''

Jude 1:23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Zechariah 3:4-5 Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, "Take away the filthy garments from him.'' And to him He said, "See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.'' And I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head.'' So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the Lord stood by.

Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

The Angel of the Lord in Zechariah is Michael in Jude and Satan in Zechariah is the devil in Jude. The high priest Joshua was the servant of Moses through the priesthood and is the same person in both Zechariah and Jude. He was the one pulled from the fire and given clean robes.

So these verses are not referring to Moses’ body because Moses died and was buried and to this day we know not where.

When we use the Bible to interpret the Bible we will have no contradictions and our faith will be biblically sound.

Let me know your thoughts...

Many blessings,
John

 

[Endium]

Wow. This is very interesting, I have to do a study on it before I come to any conclusions. Do you have a written copy of this all together? In a Word document or something?

 

[maco]

Wow. This is very interesting, I have to do a study on it before I come to any conclusions. Do you have a written copy of this all together? In a Word document or something?

Hi Endium,

I agree it was a very interesting study but you won't find many people agreeing with it, not because it's not biblically sound, but rather, because it goes against everything we have been taught. Once we come to say this is true it will cause a huge change in the way we believe and how we teach. Not many people are willing to make such a drastic change.

I do have it in word document if you want a copy.

I would be interested in where your studies lead you in this.

May the Lord richly bless you in this challenge.

John

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Because Enoch obeyed God's word by living a life pleasing to God, God took him so that he should not see death. God took Enoch so that he SHOULD not see death. Which death is God referring to here? Is it the death that we all have to face or is it the second death?

I believe God was referring to the second death because He makes it clear that Enoch walked with God and pleased God.

You had my interest until you said the above. Actually I thought you were going to be one of those who said Enoch was still around on earth. There is no conception of the Second Death until the book of Revelation so there is little reason to assume that when it talks about death it is talking about the second death of which they knew nothing.

Knowing that Enoch lived 365 years and was not because God took him tells me that Enoch died. But because Enoch had the testimony that he walked with God before God took him tells me that he should not see death, the second death. The KJ translators either struggled with trying to translate these OT words based on their own theology of the dead living on after death or it was purposely done by the antichrist beast kingdom to set the stage for the end time delusions of sorceries, contacting the dead and the appearing of Mary to deceive the world.

When you do a study it would be better to research why a word was translated such a way rather then assume you know why they did it. For instance the Expositor's Bible Commentary gives a little about the translation of the word when it says:

5 In Jewish apocalyptic thought, Enoch was a very popular figure, and several books are ascribed to him. But in the NT he figures only in Luke 3:37, Jude 14, and here. The Hebrew OT says nothing of the manner of his departure from this life, only that God "took" him (Gen 5:24). But the author follows LXX in speaking of him as "transferred," which indicates that he did not die, a truth made explicit in the words "he did not experience death."
The passive of the verb "to find" (heurisko) is sometimes used with the meaning "no longer be found, despite a thorough search = disappear" (BAG, s.v.). The author follows this up with the active metetheken (lit., "God transferred him") instead of the passive metetethe he used previously, a change that brings out the divine initiative. There is an air of permanence about the use of the perfect of this verb. There was no going back on it. For the fourth time in this chapter NIV avoids translating the verb martyreo with "witness" or "testify," preferring "he was commended." But this must be understood to mean that testimony was borne to him, the content of the testimony being that he was "one who pleased God" (Gen 5:22, 24, LXX).

 

[maco]

Hi RC_NewProtestants,

I agree with you that the writers of the NT prior to Revelation did not understand the second death, but Jesus did. This is why when Jesus made the first comment regarding not seeing death, referring to the second death the Jews thought He had a demon and began pointing to the fact that Abraham was dead, as well as, the prophets. They didn't understand the second death.

John 8:51-53 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.'' Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, `If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.' "Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?''

This is why I believe the writer of Hebrews used the word, translate rather than, perish when referring to what happened to Enoch. They couldn't grasp the second death principle even though there are many inferences to it throughout the old and new testament. Look up the words fire, destruction, burned, punishment and you will see many indications of a judgement at the end of time where the wicked are burned.

Let me know your thoughts...

Many blessings,
John

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I think your use of second death as the meaning of death elsewhere in the Bible is still the problem. First it would make no sense to those who did not even know about a resurrection which is the case for quite a while in the Old testament times. I think your use of John above would be better understood in the context that Christ previously introduced in John 5

JN 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
JN 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
JN 5:27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
JN 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
JN 5:29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

While this contains some of the ideas of the second death it informs us that even those who die are not subject to the finality of death. That life is found in Christ who has all the atributes of God. But in the case of Enoch it is probably not applicable because Enoch could have died and still be raised and thus not subject to the second death. In which case his demise would be no different then that of Abraham and other famous people of faith who are recorded to have died.

 

[maco]

I think your use of second death as the meaning of death elsewhere in the Bible is still the problem. First it would make no sense to those who did not even know about a resurrection which is the case for quite a while in the Old testament times. I think your use of John above would be better understood in the context that Christ previously introduced in John 5


While this contains some of the ideas of the second death it informs us that even those who die are not subject to the finality of death. That life is found in Christ who has all the atributes of God. But in the case of Enoch it is probably not applicable because Enoch could have died and still be raised and thus not subject to the second death. In which case his demise would be no different then that of Abraham and other famous people of faith who are recorded to have died.

You are not making a good argument here.

I showed you that the Jews struggled with understanding the second death and now you bring up the resurrection. There is much in the Bible regarding the resurrection. As a matter of fact, the pharisees believe in the resurrection while the scribs did not.

Jesus knew and understood the second death. The verses I gave support this and plainly show that He did and was referring to it. That's why the Jews began to point to the fact that Abraham was dead because they couldn't grasp it.

John 8:51-53 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.'' Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, `If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.' "Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?''

You find the same thing happening with Nichodemus when Jesus tried to explain the second birth.

Many people refuse to believe this study not on the basis of it being unscriptual, but rather, they refuse to believe because it goes against what they have been taught and what they've believed for many years. I can understand this because it is hard to make changes in one's faith.

Many blessings,
John

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Many people refuse to believe this study not on the basis of it being unscriptual, but rather, they refuse to believe because it goes against what they have been taught and what they've believed for many years. I can understand this because it is hard to make changes in one's faith.

Or they disagree with your assertions, which is what I do.

 

[maco]

RC_NewProtestants

It's easy to say I don't agree. Now tell me why?

I used to say I didn't agree with the seventh day Sabbath until one day I studied it out for myself.

Many blessings,
John

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

RC_NewProtestants

It's easy to say I don't agree. Now tell me why?

I used to say I didn't agree with the seventh day Sabbath until one day I studied it out for myself.

Many blessings,
John

I did, did you not read the two posts. All you did was repeat yourself after my posts, you did not address the points I made so there is little to continue in the conversation. You have assumed the meaning of second death to occurrences where there was not even a concept of resurrection in your statement about Enoch. You have a postition that few would find tenable. Most Christians have no problem with Jesus statement about no one going up to heaven.

JN 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
JN 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.*
JN 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
JN 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.*

The concept is that no one has been to heaven to reveal its realities except for Christ.

You have taken a verse and misapplied it, if we did the same thing with another verse then we would say that Jesus said that we are all gods:
JN 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods'* ?

You have to pay attention to the context of what Jesus says.

 

[maco]

Some poeple are just not ready to go to the next level. I understand that, I too was the same way.

Many blessings,
John

 

[StormyOne]

Some poeple are just not ready to go to the next level. I understand that, I too was the same way.

Many blessings,
John

because people don't come to the same conclusion you have that means that they are not ready to go to the next level? wow....

 

[maco]

StormyOne

It could be...

 

[StormyOne]

StormyOne

It could be...

interesting... thanks for clarifying...

 

[maco]

interesting... thanks for clarifying...

No problem, glad I could help...

 

[CwazyfoGod]

Hey. What about after Jesus died? There were many tall beings that were beatiful walking on the earth spreading the gospel. After a while they weren't seen again. Were these angels or people that were resurected and that went to heaven???

 

[maco]

Hey. What about after Jesus died? There were many tall beings that were beatiful walking on the earth spreading the gospel. After a while they weren't seen again. Were these angels or people that were resurected and that went to heaven???

Can you show me in the Bible where it says this?