Verse that seems to challange Calvinists

[tigersnare]

Agreed, it's faith in Christ's life (perfect obdience to the law) and death (God pouring out his wrath on Jesus that we deserved) that saves us. So it's directly Christ's work that saves us, not his faith(though his faith is part of his work here on earth), but our faith in that work. This faith being a gift from God.

 

[James1979]

I'm sorry have to disagree. Christ is the very essence of faith. We are saved by the faith of Christ and Christ work fulfilling the whole law of God to save his people.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


Looks like Romans and James have a contradiction. It says we Abraham and goes for the rest of the believers saying that we cannot be justified by works. Then it goes on to say that we are justified by faith and works. But wait a minute, God says that we are unrighteous, filthy rags and do nothing good in his sight. So in order for us to be holy and without blame in love, what has to be done? Christ had to be faithful and completed the task on earth to complete the Father's will to have these people. If God looks at the faith/work of Christ plus our faith in Christ to justify us? That's glory to God and glory to us. So you really want to say that God is pleased with our faith in Jesus plus the work of Christ on earth and not Jesus' faith? That would mean we are not total dependent upon God for salvation, that's a grace plus work(our action) gospel. To be dependent upon God alone for salvation means that we have nothing good in ourselves to be saved even though we received the gift of faith which is totally God's action alone and he is the author and finisher of faith. God works in us to do his will and to do of his good pleasure(Notice here it says that God works, doesnt even mention man being part of the work). Phil 2:13. So Abraham was justified by the faith of Christ and the work of Christ alone. That glory goes to God, not to Abraham or any true believer.

 

[tigersnare]

Christ had to be faithful and completed the task on earth to complete the Father's will to have these people.

Agreed

If God looks at the faith/work of Christ plus our faith in Christ to justify us? That's glory to God and glory to us. So you really want to say that God is pleased with our faith in Jesus plus the work of Christ on earth and not Jesus' faith?

God is pleased with our faith, after all it is from him.

That would mean we are not total dependent upon God for salvation, that's a grace plus work(our action) gospel.

It absolutly does not mean that, that's why I and the previous poster both stressed the point that our saving faith is a gift from God and none of our own doing. Calvinist are the last people that would argue we have something to do with our salvation.

To be dependent upon God alone for salvation means that we have nothing good in ourselves to be saved even though we received the gift of faith which is totally God's action alone and he is the author and finisher of faith. God works in us to do his will and to do of his good pleasure(Notice here it says that God works, doesnt even mention man being part of the work). Phil 2:13. So Abraham was justified by the faith of Christ and the work of Christ alone. That glory goes to God, not to Abraham or any true believer.

I disagree, once we have recieved the gift of faith we have been reborn, if we have the gift of faith there is something good in us, namely the Holy Spirit at work.

 

[Faith In God]

Ezekiel 18:24
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.


This seems like it's saying one could loose his salvation.
How do you explain?

Righteous here looks as if to mean a person like Paul was before his conversion...

Or maybe King Saul. He was righteous when he was annointed, and really did some detestable things later on.

He's probably not one of the elect...I guess we'll see exactly who the elect are on Judgment Day.

 

[James1979]

Okay well I'm still on the same ground and find it really sad that people believe we are justified by the gift of faith using that as our saving faith rather than acknowledging Christ's faith keeps us eternally secured forever more.

 

[tigersnare]

Okay well I'm still on the same ground and find it really sad that people believe we are justified by the gift of faith using that as our saving faith rather than acknowledging Christ's faith keeps us eternally secured forever more.

Semantics...

We are justified by faith in Christ alone, was this not the battle cry of the Reformation!?

 

[James1979]

The Reformation brought back most of the true gospel, that is true such as tulip and doctrine of grace etc. They are right on the money but when it comes to justification they're not reading everything in the light of the whole bible.

 

[Lockheed]

When something is given to you as a gift it becomes yours. Abraham's faith, while a gift of God, was not the "faith of Christ", it was Abraham's faith. No, it did not reside in Abraham prior to God's giving it to him, but none-the-less it is the act of believing in the coming Messiah, Christ, through which Abraham was saved. It is not the "faith of Christ" it is "Abraham believed God..."

 

[James1979]

Yes of course when God gave Abraham that gift to have faith, believe, trust it's all the same thing, it belonged to Abraham. I never said that the faith that Abraham received from God was Christ faith, I simply said that Abraham was justified(saved) by the faith of Christ and the finish work that Christ had completed to save Abraham and the rest of the true believers. Abraham was not justified by his ability to believed God from the gift that he received from God. I use to believe this too, but the thing is that God has written the bible for those who will offend, to stumble and to easily misunderstand what God is really saying. On the other hand God has written the bible in parables so that his people will be able to receive the truth while others cannot see or hear his word. I hope this helps

 

[orthedoxy]

Because Abraham faith he was considered righteous. Abraham was before the Law of Moses; he was not under the law just like we are not under the Law of Moses.
James 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
You see it was his faith that made him righteous.
The old testament one was righteous when they repent and offered a sacrifice. They were cleansed.
lev 16:30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the LORD , you will be clean from all your sins.
When people are clean then they are righteous.
Today one can’t be righteous without Christ forgiveness because we are all sinful and in need of a savior. It’s because of Christ we become righteous but that doesn’t mean it’s not our righteousness.
Salvation is a gift but God doesn’t accept Christ for us. He gives the gift we receive it.
Just like our good works it’s him working in us but that doesn’t mean he does them irresistibly if so we would all be perfect, rather he shows us the right way but sometimes we reject Gods way.
God bless

 

[Lockheed]

Yes of course when God gave Abraham that gift to have faith, believe, trust it's all the same thing, it belonged to Abraham. I never said that the faith that Abraham received from God was Christ faith, I simply said that Abraham was justified(saved) by the faith of Christ and the finish work that Christ had completed to save Abraham and the rest of the true believers.

This could just be semantics then. But again, let's let the Bible express it for us:

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
​

Whose faith is in view here, Christ's or the individual's? Before answering consider the following:

Romans 4:2-3
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
​

It seems that in Romans 3 & 4 that it is talking about the specific individual's faith, which we all agree is a gift of God, not the 'faith of Christ'. That is, we are not justified by Christ's faith or faithfulness to His Father, but as a result of our faith receiving Christ's atoning work.

Abraham was not justified by his ability to believed God from the gift that he received from God.

Yes and no. Abraham was justified as a result of believing in the promises of God... the ability to do so was a gift of God, but it was none-the-less "Abraham's faith."

The Bible states that "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness", thus is was Abraham's believing by which the credit became his.

I

use to believe this too, but the thing is that God has written the bible for those who will offend, to stumble and to easily misunderstand what God is really saying. On the other hand God has written the bible in parables so that his people will be able to receive the truth while others cannot see or hear his word. I hope this helps

No this doesn't help, I think nearly everyone in the Reformation thread will agree with this last statment of yours, however, this sheds no light on the exegesis you're attempting to provide. On what grammatical and contextual basis are you saying what you're saying?