Venerate

[Hentenza]

Wow... God forming the universe with sheer will sounds pretty impossible too if you try to explain it in human terms!




And Mary had no part in this? If she did, how is she not the mother of God?



I don't see anyone trying to argue otherwise.

Tell me this, if Jesus is God and always was and will be, how can Mary be the literal mother of God?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Tell me this, if Jesus is God and always was and will be, how can Mary be the literal mother of God?

Once again, you want an explanation of the Incarnation. That is a matter of faith. I have faith that, when Mary submitted to God, God made it happen. It's a faith shared by Christians going straight back to the beginning. I'm afraid that if you can't accept it, there's nothing more to talk about.

 

[PaladinValer]

Tell me this, if Jesus is God and always was and will be, how can Mary be the literal mother of God?

If Jesus isn't God, then you are right.

However, if you don't, then you are not a Christian.

Therefore, the only conclusion is that St. Mary the Theotokos is the Mother of God, and to say that she isn't means that Jesus is two different Persons instead of two natures.

It is called "Nestorianism" and it is specifically contradictory with the Nicene Creed and was condemned by the Third Ecumenical Council.

 

[Hentenza]

Once again, you want an explanation of the Incarnation. That is a matter of faith. I have faith that, when Mary submitted to God, God made it happen. It's a faith shared by Christians going straight back to the beginning. I'm afraid that if you can't accept it, there's nothing more to talk about.

Alright, let me change the question. Did Mary give Jesus his divinity?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Alright, let me change the question. Did Mary give Jesus his divinity?

I am claiming there is no separating His divinity and His humanity. The Father begot the Son, and He was incarnate of the Virgin Mary. Does that make it clearer?

 

[Kepha]

Mary gave birth to Jesus both human and divine. Do you not agree with that? Giving birth to Jesus does not give Mary any powers other than being blessed forever.

Give Mary powers? Anything that the Mother of God does is because of the Will of God. You make it sound like we believe she has these special powers on Her own. God honors His own Mother by allowing Her to be the Spiritual Mother of the faithful. He allows Her out of Honor for His own Mother to be the Great Intercessor that She is.

Thats not nice, KB. We do believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God.

That doesn't seem to be the case as it is impossible to say Mary was the mother of His Human Nature Only if He was both God and Man 100 percent of the time. When She nursed Him, He was God. Bathed Him He was God. Given Birth to Him He was God. Sang songs to Him as an infant, He was God. Hence......She was the Mother of God the Son.

KB made some great points and it's a pity you seemingly refuse to see them.

 

[Hentenza]

If Jesus isn't God, then you are right.

However, if you don't, then you are not a Christian.

Therefore, the only conclusion is that St. Mary the Theotokos is the Mother of God, and to say that she isn't means that Jesus is two different Persons instead of two natures.

It is called "Nestorianism" and it is specifically contradictory with the Nicene Creed and was condemned by the Third Ecumenical Council.

Have you read any of the previous posts? I have already stated several times that my belief is not the separation of Christ's humanity and divinity.
I will ask you the same question that I have asked others. Did Mary give Jesus his divinity?

 

[Hentenza]

I am claiming there is no separating His divinity and His humanity. The Father begot the Son, and He was incarnate of the Virgin Mary. Does that make it clearer?

You are NOT answering the question. Did Mary give Jesus his divinity? You are giving me the party line.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

You are NOT answering the question. Did Mary give Jesus his divinity? You are giving me the party line.

And I am telling you that the basis of your question is invalid; you cannot separate His divinity and humanity in those terms! Like it or not, this is what Nestorius did because he couldn't understand how Mary could be Theotokos either!

 

[Hentenza]

Give Mary powers? Anything that the Mother of God does is because of the Will of God. You make it sound like we believe she has these special powers on Her own. God honors His own Mother by allowing Her to be the Spiritual Mother of the faithful. He allows Her out of Honor for His own Mother to be the Great Intercessor that She is.

I was answering someone elses post. The poster asked if Mary had any powers. I answered him. Did you bother to read the post or just assume.

That doesn't seem to be the case as it is impossible to say Mary was the mother of His Human Nature Only if He was both God and Man 100 percent of the time. When She nursed Him, He was God. Bathed Him He was God. Given Birth to Him He was God. Sang songs to Him as an infant, He was God. Hence......She was the Mother of God the Son.

But Mary did not give Jesus his divinity so Mary did not literally give birth to God only symbolically.

KB made some great points and it's a pity you seemingly refuse to see them

And what is that suppose to mean. We all make great points whether they are true or not is what debate is about. If you don't like debate, don't go to the debate forums.

 

[Hentenza]

And I am telling you that the basis of your question is invalid; you cannot separate His divinity and humanity in those terms! Like it or not, this is what Nestorius did because he couldn't understand how Mary could be Theotokos either!

Yes I can divide it, you just refuse to answer the question. Nestorians believe that Mary gave birth to ONLY his human side. I do not believe that. You need to do some more study on Nestorians.
What I am saying is that Mary was NOT responsible for giving Jesus his divinity because Jesus is God and always has been. Remember John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." Mary did not give Jesus his divinity, she gave birth to both, but did not make God.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Yes I can divide it, you just refuse to answer the question. Nestorians believe that Mary gave birth to ONLY his human side. I do not believe that. You need to do some more study on Nestorians.

Just because you disagree with my conclusion does not mean I need further study on Nestorianism. The idea that the two natures are separable is heretical, as it is one of the base claims of Nestorianism. At any rate, say whatever you want at this point. I'm not about to debate established fact.

Mary did not give Jesus his divinity, she gave birth to both, but did not make God.

You've got to be kidding me... is that what you're asking me? Mary did not make God. Read and understand the Nicene Creed; it specifically addresses your concerns.

 

[Kepha]

I was answering someone elses post. The poster asked if Mary had any powers. I answered him. Did you bother to read the post or just assume.

Ok so you were answering another poster. What does that matter? Your words still won't change whether it was to me or him. What you said is what I quoted. That can only be taken one way.

But Mary did not give Jesus his divinity so Mary did not literally give birth to God only symbolically.

You mean create His Divinity that never existed before? We never said that. We said the baby that was given birth to was God and I cannot see how this can be disuputed unless you are to pull the two natures apart one by one which was impossible to do with Christ. Since Christ who was the Son of Mary was God, then She was the Mother of God.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

We said the baby that was given birth to was God and I cannot see how this can be disuputed unless you are to pull the two natures apart one by one which was impossible to do with Christ.

He thinks it's possible:

Yes I can divide it

...and then says that isn't Nestorianism.

 

[PaladinValer]

Have you read any of the previous posts? I have already stated several times that my belief is not the separation of Christ's humanity and divinity.

That's a Straw Man. You don't seem to understand then what Nestorianism is.

I will ask you the same question that I have asked others. Did Mary give Jesus his divinity?

No, but it is irrelevent since and this is all a Straw Man argument anyhow.

Nestorianism creates two Persons: Jesus the Man and Jesus the Divine, only one of which was in the womb. St. Mary is more than just the Christokos (or Anthrotokos, if you will) since Jesus is not Jesus the Human and Jesus the God but Jesus the Theanthropos. He is both at the same time, not two people. Therefore, she is both Christokos and Theotokos, since Jesus is not two persons but one.

And while you can claim to say that you believe this, if your words do not support your claim, then it is your words, not your claim, is what matters. Mormons claim to be Christians all the time, yet their words dictate otherwise, just to give a prime example.

His humanity and divinity are distinct, true, but inseperable. You cannot have Jesus with just one nature; He comes as a package deal: two natures, two wills, One Person.

St. Mary is Theotokos, Mother of God, and Queen of Heaven as a result.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

His humanity and divinity are distinct, true, but inseperable. You cannot have Jesus with just one nature; He comes as a package deal: two natures, two wills, One Person.

 

[PaladinValer]

Well since Nestorians doesn't want to admit Nestorianism, I'll force them to admit a double whammy of both monophysitism and monothelitism!

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Ouch!

 

[Kepha]

Nestorianism creates two Persons: Jesus the Man and Jesus the Divine, only one of which was in the womb. St. Mary is more than just the Christokos (or Anthrotokos, if you will) since Jesus is not Jesus the Human and Jesus the God but Jesus the Theanthropos. He is both at the same time, not two people. Therefore, she is both Christokos and Theotokos, since Jesus is not two persons but one.

And while you can claim to say that you believe this, if your words do not support your claim, then it is your words, not your claim, is what matters. Mormons claim to be Christians all the time, yet their words dictate otherwise, just to give a prime example.

His humanity and divinity are distinct, true, but inseperable. You cannot have Jesus with just one nature; He comes as a package deal: two natures, two wills, One Person.

St. Mary is Theotokos, Mother of God, and Queen of Heaven as a result.

That was just beautiful PaladinValer.

 

[Amylisa]

His humanity and divinity are distinct, true, but inseperable. You cannot have Jesus with just one nature; He comes as a package deal: two natures, two wills, One Person.

...which is what makes Him so wonderfully amazing and utterly beautiful!