Venerate

lionroar0 · Jun 12, 2007

It looks the same

ON the outside it looks the same. And that is why we are saying that veneration and worship due to God is different, because when someone does not know the difference then they will reach the wrong conclusion. Looking at this I know that this is not worship being taken away from God and given to Mary. It is veneration. That is a deep respect, love and honor to the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We love her and honor her, because when she was asked to carry God with in her womb she said yes. We respect, honor her and love her, because she fed Jesus Christ our Lord with the milk from her breasts. She raised Him from a helpless baby till adulthood.

Peace

Amylisa · Jun 14, 2007

Check out the link in Rick Otto's first post on the thread, "Stop denying that you worship Mary." It is very informative.

Kristos · Jun 14, 2007

This thread seems to be in violation of rule number 1, as I see no other reason for it:

[1] Rule violation: Catholics worship Mary in place of God.

Amylisa · Jun 14, 2007

Kristos said:
This thread seems to be in violation of rule number 1, as I see no other reason for it:

[1] Rule violation: Catholics worship Mary in place of God.

Yup. As usual.
Well like Jesus said, I suppose we better just turn the other cheek!
Sad when you have to do that with other Christians, though.

SeraphimSarov · Jun 14, 2007

IamAdopted said:
This has been what we have been saying.. Jesus Opens your eyes and ears to understand what the scriptures are saying. We do not interpret.. We read them and understand them..

Need I point out the ridiculous number of denominations that have come out of that way of thinking? If Jesus opens everyone's eyes, why are you all reaching different conclusions - and how in the world can anyone call that Biblical? See the Gospel of St. Mark, chapter 3, verses 24-25.

As to the main topic, veneration... I hope none of you people kiss your parents, siblings, friends, spouses, or any of the like, because you're in the same boat as we idolaters if you do.

E.C. · Jun 14, 2007

Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism and Monothelitism.

What do they have in common?

All were the result of private interpretation. All were dubbed "heresy" at an Ecumenical Council.

And most sad of all: the core issue of each is all but forgotten in Western Christianity.

Lord have Mercy.

iannassah · Jun 18, 2007

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word,
even in this:
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself.[
But if you bite and devour one another,
beware lest you be consumed by one another!"
Galatians 5:14 & 15

Epiphanygirl · Jun 18, 2007

I see venerations throughout everyday life.......Is anyone gonna tell me that it is only Catholic/EO/OO/AC that leave flowers on gravesites? Put flags on gravesites? Visit historical monuments in DC......have pictures of dead relatives hanging on your walls of your homes? Hypocrisy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

kepha31 · Jun 18, 2007

Protestants often refer to their pastors as reverend. The dictionary says:
1 : worthy of reverence : REVERED
2 a : of or relating to the clergy b : being a member of the clergy -- used as a title (Reverend John Doe)

The dictionary says this about venerate:
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion
synonym see REVERE

Revere:
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re·vered; re·ver·ing
Etymology: Latin revereri, from re- + vereri to fear, respect -- more at WARY
: to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor <revere the aged> <revere tradition>

Calling ones pastor "reverend" is showing veneration for the position they hold, as most Protestants do. Venerating great saints of the past for their holiness is perfectly normal to both Jewish and Christian traditions. What is not normal is the Albigensian and Manchaenist heresies that says all matter is evil, and nobody can be holy.

The error that some Protestants make in their objections to veneration of the saints is that we are all the same in heaven, due to imputed righteousness, therefore no one should be venerated. This is as false as the above named heresies.

livingword26 · Jun 18, 2007

Epiphanygirl said:
I see venerations throughout everyday life.......Is anyone gonna tell me that it is only Catholic/EO/OO/AC that leave flowers on gravesites? Put flags on gravesites? Visit historical monuments in DC......have pictures of dead relatives hanging on your walls of your homes? Hypocrisy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's a bit of difference between having a picture of a loved one on your wall, and building a statue of that loved one, taking it to church and kneeling down in front of it and praying to it.

Hentenza · Jun 18, 2007

kepha31 said:
Protestants often refer to their pastors as reverend. The dictionary says:
1 : worthy of reverence :REVERED
2 a : of or relating to the clergy b : being a member of the clergy -- used as a title (Reverend John Doe)

The dictionary says this about venerate:
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion
synonym see REVERE

Revere:
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re·vered; re·ver·ing
Etymology: Latin revereri, from re- + vereri to fear, respect -- more at WARY
: to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor <revere the aged> <revere tradition>

Calling ones pastor "reverend" is showing veneration for the position they hold, as most Protestants do. Venerating great saints of the past for their holiness is perfectly normal to both Jewish and Christian traditions. What is not normal is the Albigensian and Manchaenist heresies that says all matter is evil, and nobody can be holy.

The error that some Protestants make in their objections to veneration of the saints is that we are all the same in heaven, due to imputed righteousness, therefore no one should be venerated. This is as false as the above named heresies.

We don't call our pastor reverend and never will, however, the CC calls the priests Father.
Matthew 23:9
9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
This is an error of the CC. One of many.

E.C. · Jun 18, 2007

To St. John of Damascus's words of wisdom regarding icons!

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.html

SeraphimSarov · Jun 18, 2007

livingword26 said:
There's a bit of difference between having a picture of a loved one on your wall, and building a statue of that loved one, taking it to church and kneeling down in front of it and praying to it.

I don't know of any church that does that. Who are you talking about?

Kristos · Jun 19, 2007

I have to say, I'm not wild about statues either. BUT, there was a time when I felt the same way about icons. I was against them because I misunderstood their meaning and value. It's something that can really be explained - it has to be experienced. Veneration is not worship. Orthodox theology is very specific and deliberate about it's terminology, so if it was meant to worship an icon, that is what it would say - but is doesn't - the word venerate is used instead to differeniate the practices. Also, I would add that Orthodox icon follow strict guidelines that maintains their status as icons, vice just a painting.

Amylisa · Jun 19, 2007

Have you ever "kissed " a photo of a loved one? Maybe someone in your family who was away from home for a time? I have!

Same thing with statues and icons. It's a way of showing affection...you are not worshipping the piece of paper or marble...you are thinking of the person it represents.

Epiphanygirl · Jun 19, 2007

Kristos said:
I have to say, I'm not wild about statues either. BUT, there was a time when I felt the same way about icons. I was against them because I misunderstood their meaning and value. It's something that can really be explained - it has to be experienced. Veneration is not worship. Orthodox theology is very specific and deliberate about it's terminology, so if it was meant to worship an icon, that is what it would say - but is doesn't - the word venerate is used instead to differeniate the practices. Also, I would add that Orthodox icon follow strict guidelines that maintains their status as icons, vice just a painting.

Catholics use icons and statues.....granted, statues can't go into as much storytelling, but if you notice the detailed ones.....the stutue is always surrounded by something to show what the Saint is being venerated for. colors and minute symbols lead the person through the story, or at the very least, the gist of it. Icons are beautiful.......I've found a Russian store that I plan on revisting to see about getting one..... Our Catholic shops carry them as well.....

iannassah · Jun 19, 2007

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above,
or that [is] in the earth beneath,
or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,
nor serve them:
for I the LORD thy God ..."
Exodus 20:3-5

"For thou shalt worship no other god"
Exodus 34:14

iannassah · Jun 19, 2007

שחה
The definition of worship:

1) to bow down
a) (Qal) to bow down
b) (Hiphil) to depress (fig)
c) (Hithpael)
1) to bow down, prostrate oneself
a) before superior in homage
b) before God in worship
c) before false gods
d) before angel

AV worship 99, bow 31, bow down 18, obeisance 9, reverence 5, fall down 3, themselves 2, stoop 1, crouch 1,

PaladinValer · Jun 19, 2007

Hail Mary! Full of Grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and Blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now at the hour of our death. Amen.

**Kisses the icon of St. Mary the Theotokos**

livingword26 · Jun 19, 2007

PaladinValer said:
Hail Mary! Full of Grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and Blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now at the hour of our death. Amen.

**Kisses the icon of St. Mary the Theotokos**

Mat 6:9-13
(9) Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
(10) Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
(11) Give us this day our daily bread;
(12) and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors.
(13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil. For Yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

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