Venerate

[TheMimic]

you youngens will never get it will you. Stop arguing. It is made clear in The Bible that we pray to God only! Ya aint supposed to pray to no mary or saints. Get with the program here. Read The Bible! And you cant ask a person who aint on earth no more to pray fur ya. What were ya thinkin? Read The Bible!

 

[jckstraw72]

And you cant ask a person who aint on earth no more to pray fur ya.

why not? and why did God let His Church become deceived then, for almost 2000 yrs?

 

[iannassah]

"why not?
and why did God let His Church become deceived then, for almost 2000 yrs?"
Deceived about what?

 

[iannassah]

"no one claims Mary is a mediator btwn us and God!!!"

Do you pray to Mary or ask her to intercede for you?

 

[jckstraw72]

Do you pray to Mary or ask her to intercede for you?

intercession and mediation are NOT the same thing. if i pray for you i am an intercessor on your behalf, but only Christ can bring us to the Father.

 

[malckiah]

why not? and why did God let His Church become deceived then, for almost 2000 yrs?

God did not allow The Church to be decieved, though there are those that say they are the church that are not!

 

[iannassah]

nay, you believe unscriptural things. we both make arguments from Scripture. we can both claim learning from the Holy Spirit. so how do we, and all the others who disagree, figure it out?
By reading The Holy Bible! It is what we compare our beliefs with to make sure that they agree with what God says...

better yet, why do we have to figure it out

Because your salvation depends on it! If any of us dies believing a lie or lies or choose to ignore what God has told us---

"And there is no creature hidden from His sight,
but all things [are] naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we [must give] account. "
Hebrews 4:13​

-- what happened to the teachings of the apostles?
The teachings of the apostles are easy to access... they are in The Holy Bible!

why have they faded away, leaving us to try and interpret the Scriptures for ourselves?
Because people don't open their Bible, they don't look up and find out for themselves whether what they are being taught is true or not. People can have an appearance of holiness and be anything but holy!

yes the Scriptures are the teachings of the apostles, but what happened to the meaning of the words?
The meaning of what they are teaching is still there. Some things are difficult to understand but for the most part it is simple to understand.
It was originally written in Greek... try to get a concordance/dictionary (Strong's makes several different ones to choose from!) one that has Hebrew/Greek words & definitions. The English language doesn't have the richness or depth that you get with the Greek! Also, you might see the same word in two different places but they have different meanings....

why is there so much confusion on the meaning of the words
Hopefully the answer above is helpful!

-- Paul taught his conregations in person what the words meant
Paul spoke to the congregations in their own language, they already knew what he meant, plus they had the Holy Spirit living in them to help them understand.

-- where has that meaning gone and why?

The meaning hasn't gone any where!!! Pray before you read, that God The Father give you understanding...

 

[jckstraw72]

God did not allow The Church to be decieved, though there are those that say they are the church that are not!

so where was this Church that didnt believe in the intercession of saints before the Reformation?!?!

The meaning hasn't gone any where!!!

my point was that if the meaning hasnt gone anywhere, then no person would ever have to interpret the Scriptures on his own -- we would just be taught what they actually mean -- we wouldnt have to desperately try to understand the Scriptures. God gave us the Church to hand on the faith (see Titus and the 1 Timothy I think) -- He doesnt leave it up to individuals to try to figure out what the faith is.

 

[Hentenza]

my point was that if the meaning hasnt gone anywhere, then no person would ever have to interpret the Scriptures on his own -- we would just be taught what they actually mean -- we wouldnt have to desperately try to understand the Scriptures. God gave us the Church to hand on the faith (see Titus and the 1 Timothy I think) -- He doesnt leave it up to individuals to try to figure out what the faith is.

And who says that we do? Do you not think that we have full support of our churches including instruction? Do you think that Sola Scriptura means bible alone individual alone?

 

[jckstraw72]

And who says that we do? Do you not think that we have full support of our churches including instruction? Do you think that Sola Scriptura means bible alone individual alone?

well i was responding to racer who said that in the end the only thing we have is our own perception of what Scripture says.

 

[IamAdopted]

my point was that if the meaning hasnt gone anywhere, then no person would ever have to interpret the Scriptures on his own -- we would just be taught what they actually mean

This has been what we have been saying.. Jesus Opens your eyes and ears to understand what the scriptures are saying. We do not interpret.. We read them and understand them..

 

[jckstraw72]

God did not allow The Church to be decieved, though there are those that say they are the church that are not!

you say that the communion of saints is false, but since all of Christianity believed in it until after the Reformation, then the only conclusion is that the Church became deceived for at least 1500 years-- so again, why did God allow this? where was the Holy Spirit, Who is supposed to lead us into all truth?

 

[jckstraw72]

This has been what we have been saying.. Jesus Opens your eyes and ears to understand what the scriptures are saying. We do not interpret.. We read them and understand them..

who does? the Lutherans, or hte Methodists, or the Baptists, or hte Catholics, or the Pentecostals etc etc etc etc

 

[livingword26]

This is basic ignorance. If you took the time to fully research the subject you would see there is a clear and concise difference between the two in understanding and in practice.

It looks the same

 

[jckstraw72]

Joseph's brothers bowed before him -- did they worship him? and why does love and respect HAVE to be the same as worship in your eyes?

 

[livingword26]

Joseph's brothers bowed before him -- did they worship him? and why does love and respect HAVE to be the same as worship in your eyes?

Josephs brothers were standing right next to him. He held a high ranking position that could save their lives, and the last time they saw him was when they sold him into slavery. They did not pray to him or ask him to make intercessions to God for them. Getting down on your knees before an elevated statue of a woman, and praying to her is not the same thing. Jesus Christ died to restore our relationship with God. Not so we could find other people, who have passed on, and who do not have omnipresent capabilities, to pray to God for us. That picture is a perfect example of:

Exo 20:4-5
(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
(5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Mary is blessed indeed to be the mother of our Savior, but she does not have the powers that are being attributed to her, and there is no scripture to say that she does.

 

[jckstraw72]

Getting down on your knees before an elevated statue of a woman, and praying to her is not the same thing.

Not so we could find other people, who have passed on, and who do not have omnipresent capabilities, to pray to God for us.

well which is it? praying TO Mary, or asking her to pray for us? pretty big difference there.

 

[livingword26]

well which is it? praying TO Mary, or asking her to pray for us? pretty big difference there.

Catholics right here in this forum do both of those things. May be quit different, but neither has biblical authority.

 

[lionroar0]

Catholics right here in this forum do both of those things.

You know this how? Which Catholics?

May be quit different, but neither has biblical authority.

After we stablish which one then we can get into "biblical authority."

 

[lionroar0]

And who says that we do? Do you not think that we have full support of our churches including instruction? Do you think that Sola Scriptura means bible alone individual alone?

Some protestants do.

Peace