Vegas Style Tithing

[Mark the Builder]

Had an interesting conversation with my Mother and Father-in-law the other day. They are believers (charismatic, but we'll save that for another thread) but they also go to Vegas regularly and gamble. While they were talking about their latest trip I asked them a question -- "Suppose you won several thousand or even a million dollars, would you tithe off your winnings or donate to the church any money?" The truth was I was baiting them. I feel that it would be wrong for the church to accept money from gambling or lottery winnings, etc.

After they said, "Sure we would give from our winnings to the church." I proceeded to launch into my views regarding the subject. My wife kept kicking my shins under the table but like a bulldog I held on. Needless to say the church where I pastor won't have to worry about ever receiving money from my in-laws gambling profit.

I later appologized if I had offended them in any way. But the arguement was heated and it did cause me to have to defend my position because I was the only one at the table who felt it to be wrong!

The problems I have with it are the following:

1. First of all I see it as a holiness issue. If we will accept money from such a polluted thing as gambling why not accept money from drug trafficking as well. You have to draw a line. The church is to stand for holiness and she can't do that without a standard.

2. It's a hypocritical issue. If we preach against gambling then why would we be willing to accept the profit from gambling. It's like a kick in the teeth and a pat on the back at the same time. They don't mix.

3. Most of all it's a Biblical issue. (couldn't think of another 'h' word). Though the Bible doesn't tell us in one simple command that gambling is wrong I do believe the principles the Bible teaches us enforces the fact that it is wrong. We could exhaust ourselves with verses at this point but I think you get the point. Mostly, I believe that gambling tries to shortcut God's prescribed methods of obtaining wealth.

Another question this brings up is should a church take any donations from anyone other than a believer? If a non-believer in your hometown wins the powerball tonight and shows up Sunday to your church to present a check should the church take it? I say no. What do you say?

mark.

 

[reformedfan]

I don't know if you know of World Magazine, it's an excellent, conservative Christian 'Newsweek' type magazine minus the liberal slant & celeb gossip.
A while back, some guy won a bunch of money in some lottery. He made headlines for saying he was going to tithe 10% to his church, I believe the Assembly of God.
World came out in response sqaurely on your side in the issue, in a very eloquent article. Among some of the more memorable quotes, "Jesus doesn't build His church on the backs of the poor". (the ones usually sucked into buying the lottery tickets & inflating the prizes in their vain hopes. It was an excellent, Biblical defense (as usual) from the gang at World.

 

[Mark the Builder]

I don't know if you know of World Magazine, it's an excellent, conservative Christian 'Newsweek' type magazine minus the liberal slant & celeb gossip.
A while back, some guy won a bunch of money in some lottery. He made headlines for saying he was going to tithe 10% to his church, I believe the Assembly of God.
World came out in response sqaurely on your side in the issue, in a very eloquent article. Among some of the more memorable quotes, "Jesus doesn't build His church on the backs of the poor". (the ones usually sucked into buying the lottery tickets & inflating the prizes in their vain hopes. It was an excellent, Biblical defense (as usual) from the gang at World.

Thanks for the reply. I would like some more information on World Magazine if possible. Are you a subscriber? Do they have a website?

mark.

 

[Sharky]

Also, a few years ago a christian mother had a dying child. I can't remember what sickness it was. She prayed for a miracle and won lottery to pay for her child's operation which she could not afford in the first place.

Personally, i think gambling is sinful because of our attitude. Most of us do it to try and gain earthly wealth instead of earning it properly.

But from what you describe, yes i do believe that's wrong. It's relying on gambling to push God's work further. FIRST God will multiply the tithes for the better. Even if it's 10 cents, God can make it do so much. Secondly, people who gamble to tithe will be disappointed. You can't rely on chance to get God's job done. You need faith and gambling for tithing is generally not faithful.

 

[reformedfan]

I do believe World has a web site, but I'm not sure. It's such an excellent magazine we give ours away when we're done reading them. I ransacked the house & can't even find one to give you any info on.
Marvin Olasky ("Tragedy of American Compassion", "Grand Illusion", etc. author) is the editor in chief, Joel Belz is also on the masthead. I dunno, do a search on the net for "World Magazine" & look for those guys names, or the 'Christian news magazine' description.
If Ifind anything around here, I'll letcha know. Sorry I wasn't very much help, but this magazine is worth seeking out in spite of my lack of help.

 

[Mark the Builder]

I do believe World has a web site, but I'm not sure. It's such an excellent magazine we give ours away when we're done reading them. I ransacked the house & can't even find one to give you any info on.
Marvin Olasky ("Tragedy of American Compassion", "Grand Illusion", etc. author) is the editor in chief, Joel Belz is also on the masthead. I dunno, do a search on the net for "World Magazine" & look for those guys names, or the 'Christian news magazine' description.
If Ifind anything around here, I'll letcha know. Sorry I wasn't very much help, but this magazine is worth seeking out in spite of my lack of help.

I checked out world magazine on the net and did find a magazine that went by that name. It looked like what you described. The subscription was about $39 bucks. Is that the one? I found it at worldmag.com. Thanks for your help.

mark.

 

[Mark the Builder]

Also, a few years ago a christian mother had a dying child. I can't remember what sickness it was. She prayed for a miracle and won lottery to pay for her child's operation which she could not afford in the first place.

Personally, i think gambling is sinful because of our attitude. Most of us do it to try and gain earthly wealth instead of earning it properly.

But from what you describe, yes i do believe that's wrong. It's relying on gambling to push God's work further. FIRST God will multiply the tithes for the better. Even if it's 10 cents, God can make it do so much. Secondly, people who gamble to tithe will be disappointed. You can't rely on chance to get God's job done. You need faith and gambling for tithing is generally not faithful.

So Sharky,

Do you think the miracle this woman received was an act of God? How could the two be justified? I agree with your thoughts on the rest of your reply. Thanks.

mark.

 

[reformedfan]

yup, that's it! great job!
it's well worth the money, I tell ya.

 

[waas_MI]

Lets visit the original question of the thread owner.

1. Everything in this world is owned by God. The Bible says that. This also includes
money.

2. Bible doesn't say not to gamble. I have a feeling the church says that because they don't want to see people getting addicted to this bad habit.

3. When I lived in South Carolina ( 1995-1997 ) there was not even a state
lottery. Why ? It was against Christian values. You could see folks driving
all the way from SC to Georgia to buy lottery tickets.
But recently when I visited I found a state lottery to fund the education
system in SC. ( Wow! What a change )

4. Now my opinion -> The Book of Romans says that God is in everything. That means God is the person who makes that decision for the
roulette wheel to spin and stop for you to win that big money.

5. Well then, why not give back a portion of what belongs to God. After all
God owns it all - It belongs to him
He is the one who made us win the JACKPOT or GAMBLING BET. So why not
give him the 10% back to him. I don't see a problem with that.
The problem is when we go beyond our limits loosing everything we have
and getting into debt using Gods money. I bet God hates that.
It's OK to occasionaly gamble, I guess! But not beyond limits.


6. The author of the thread askes whether is right for the church to accept Drug Money ? I don't think God honors that money becasue it comes via a wrong channel.
It's money that comes by selling destruction to his own people. Why would a
loving God accept that kind of dirt?

 

[Tami]

6. The author of the thread askes whether is right for the church to accept Drug Money ? I don't think God honors that money becasue it comes via a wrong channel.
It's money that comes by selling destruction to his own people. Why would a
loving God accept that kind of dirt?

One could argue the same thing about gambling. Gambling is addictive and can lead to destrution as well. Not everyone who occasionally does drugs gets addicted just like not everyone who occasionally gambles gets addicted. Does that make doing drugs any more right? Why should it make gambling any more right?

 

[WesleyJohn]

Perhaps the devil has had that money long enough, and now we can put it to work for the Kingdom...

???

Peace,

WJ

 

[Mark the Builder]

Lets visit the original question of the thread owner.

1. Everything in this world is owned by God. The Bible says that. This also includes
money.

2. Bible doesn't say not to gamble. I have a feeling the church says that because they don't want to see people getting addicted to this bad habit.

3. When I lived in South Carolina ( 1995-1997 ) there was not even a state
lottery. Why ? It was against Christian values. You could see folks driving
all the way from SC to Georgia to buy lottery tickets.
But recently when I visited I found a state lottery to fund the education
system in SC. ( Wow! What a change )

4. Now my opinion -> The Book of Romans says that God is in everything. That means God is the person who makes that decision for the
roulette wheel to spin and stop for you to win that big money.

5. Well then, why not give back a portion of what belongs to God. After all
God owns it all - It belongs to him
He is the one who made us win the JACKPOT or GAMBLING BET. So why not
give him the 10% back to him. I don't see a problem with that.
The problem is when we go beyond our limits loosing everything we have
and getting into debt using Gods money. I bet God hates that.
It's OK to occasionaly gamble, I guess! But not beyond limits.


6. The author of the thread askes whether is right for the church to accept Drug Money ? I don't think God honors that money becasue it comes via a wrong channel.
It's money that comes by selling destruction to his own people. Why would a
loving God accept that kind of dirt?

Thanks for your reply. I'd like to address some of your comments.

1. I do believe that God is the owner of all things. "For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills. I know all the birds of the mountains, And the wild beasts of the field are Mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell you; For the world is Mine, and all its fullness." Ps. 50:10-12 I believe that all my financial blessings are from the Lord. He also rains on the just and the unjust alike. The only difference, I suppose, is that I recognize my blessings as coming down from heaven above whereas the world refuses to see such things as coming from God. They simply think they have made wise decisions and are quick enough on their feet to be so blessed. But to be sure God is the owner of it all.

2. Again, as I said in the original post, the Bible doesn't come right out and say, "Thou shalt not gamble." However the teaching of the Bible, when you take into consideration the full counsel of God's Word, surely teaches us to avoid such things as gambling. For starters it stands in stark contrast to God's prescribed method of obtaining wealth. "He who has a slack hand becomes poor, But the hand of the diligent makes rich." Prov. 10:4. "He who works his land will have abundant food, but the one who chases fantasies will have his fill of poverty." Prov. 28:19 God's primary method for obtaining wealth is by working, not gambling.

Also, there are multiple warnings given throughout Scripture regarding the love of money, and the dangers of riches keeping one from heaven:
"When your herds and flocks grow large and your silver and gold increase and all you have is multiplied, then your heart will become proud and you will foret the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." Dt. 8:13-14.
"A faithful man will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished." Pr. 28:20
"I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." Mat. 19:23
"But the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." Mk. 4:19
"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that punge men into ruin and destruction." 1 Tim. 6:9

Even though many people say that they gamble for pleasure I doubt very seriously that they would give the money back if they won thousands or millions. The bottom line is that when we gamble our motive is to make a small investment and turn a huge dividend. That's the goal of gambling as well as its lure.

3. Do you say that because a state lottery helps fund education that makes it all right? Then I suppose the millions that the Phillip Morris Co. and the tobaco industries spend on education and community projects makes smoking ok too. After all just look at all the jobs smoking provides for the medical profession. Lung cancer, emphysema, gum disease, etc. etc. So I suppose that because something positive comes out of something negative that it's ok???? I don't think so.

4. I'm really not sure what you are meaning here? Can you make that clearer for me?

5. Do you honestly believe God MAKES YOU WIN THE JACKPOT???? Doesn't that thought sound incongrous to you? That's certainly not a Scriptural principle.

6. Tami's response was right on. Gambling is ever bit as destructive and addictive as drugs. The church cannot stand for holiness on one hand while accepting a so called 'blessing' from worldly means on the other. May God help us to realize the incredible way he desires to bless his church when the church yields herself to the standards of His Word.

mark.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I have an odd example. I play scratch off lottery tickets. I don't have any aspirations of winning the so called big money, the odds are just flat out against it. I play it for the same reason I ride roller coasters, because it is fun. I dump maytbe 5.00 a week into 5 tickets and scratch them off. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't. I kept track one year and found myself to have pretty much broke even. I don't gamble to make money but to amuse myself. Where is the harm in that and why shouldn't my church accept my tithes if I did happen to drop a buck and get 25,000 in return? That would just be silly to refuse the money.

Anything can be destructive if it is an addiction. Should the church barbeque fundraiser make sure they don't sell anything to the overweight guy who lives down the block? Of course they shouldn't do that, that's just silly. You say God's prmary method for attaining wealth is hard work. I have worked hard my whole life and do not chase after pie in the sky schemes and am just barely middle class (don't take me as complaining, I am happy being right where I am), but if I take the money that I WORKED for and drop a couple of bucks and win a jackpot who is to say that God did not just reward my years of hard work?

 

[Tami]

I have an odd example. I play scratch off lottery tickets. I don't have any aspirations of winning the so called big money, the odds are just flat out against it. I play it for the same reason I ride roller coasters, because it is fun. I dump maytbe 5.00 a week into 5 tickets and scratch them off. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't. I kept track one year and found myself to have pretty much broke even. I don't gamble to make money but to amuse myself. Where is the harm in that and why shouldn't my church accept my tithes if I did happen to drop a buck and get 25,000 in return? That would just be silly to refuse the money.

Anything can be destructive if it is an addiction. Should the church barbeque fundraiser make sure they don't sell anything to the overweight guy who lives down the block? Of course they shouldn't do that, that's just silly. You say God's prmary method for attaining wealth is hard work. I have worked hard my whole life and do not chase after pie in the sky schemes and am just barely middle class (don't take me as complaining, I am happy being right where I am), but if I take the money that I WORKED for and drop a couple of bucks and win a jackpot who is to say that God did not just reward my years of hard work?

The problem I see in playing lotto games is that the system leeches off of poor people. Some people play games like that every week even if they only spend a buck on it hoping that they will win millions and not be poor anymore. It is most likely that they will not win and are pretty much flushing money down the toilet. It may only be a buck or two but when you're poor every cent counts. It's a buck that should have went for a loaf of bread. A while back I heard about some guy who was already rich winning the lottery. It was in the news. He tried to give the Salvation Army some of the money but they refused it. Maybe you heard about the story. I wonder how much of poor people's money went to fill that guys pockets who was already rich. You may not be as rich as that guy but would you feel good taking money from people less fortunate than you who bought tickets hoping they'd win and be able to provide a better life for their family? I wouldn't. I can't stand a system that leeches off of poor people.


Tami

 

[Mark the Builder]

I have an odd example. I play scratch off lottery tickets. I don't have any aspirations of winning the so called big money, the odds are just flat out against it. I play it for the same reason I ride roller coasters, because it is fun. I dump maytbe 5.00 a week into 5 tickets and scratch them off. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't. I kept track one year and found myself to have pretty much broke even. I don't gamble to make money but to amuse myself. Where is the harm in that and why shouldn't my church accept my tithes if I did happen to drop a buck and get 25,000 in return? That would just be silly to refuse the money.

Anything can be destructive if it is an addiction. Should the church barbeque fundraiser make sure they don't sell anything to the overweight guy who lives down the block? Of course they shouldn't do that, that's just silly. You say God's prmary method for attaining wealth is hard work. I have worked hard my whole life and do not chase after pie in the sky schemes and am just barely middle class (don't take me as complaining, I am happy being right where I am), but if I take the money that I WORKED for and drop a couple of bucks and win a jackpot who is to say that God did not just reward my years of hard work?

Thanks for the reply. It is a touchy issue. However, I do believe the issue is one of purity and holiness. It also becomes an issue of where do we draw the line?

It's odd to me that we approach some sins in a relaxed, flippant manner. Am I saying that gambling is sin? Yes. I believe it goes against the clear teaching of Scripture. You say, "It's only for pleasure and I don't spend very much; I break even, etc." Let me ask you this, would you commit adultery just because it's fun? Would you lie or steal for the pleasure of it? Besides you don't do it very often. Or how about drinking? You could say, "I don't get drunk very often." Occasional sin is sin nonetheless. And of course you would never say that.

Also, why would you want to associate yourself with something that has a horrible stench of the world attatched to it? And then, give a portion of your winnings to the church? I don't think God would be pleased. God does not use wicked means in order to financially fund his kingdom.

mark.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

There is no scriptural ban on gambling and it certainly was around in biblical times. To say that it is evil and wrong can only be based in conjecture. Although if you believe it is wrong then it is wrong for you, Paul tells us that (not about gambling specifically). If it was against God's will I am sure we would find some mention of it in the Old Law somewhere, but alas we find none. It is just like eating, if you are addicted to it then it is bad for you. Like alcohol, I do not get drunk anymore but I do enjoy the occasional glass of wine with dinner and sometimes a really good beer, and ever so occasionally a nice scotch served neat. I limit myself when I consume these things because drunkeness is a sin just as I limit myself to playing very little money on scratch offs. I don't play the lotto as it does not amuse me. But unless there is scriptural evidence directly against it I do not see how you can claim to know God's will on the matter. I mean no offense here at all so please don't take my words to be harsher than intended

 

[McCravey]

I would like to add an interesting thought I had recently on tithing. I had tithed for years faithfully to my local church and had received blessings financially. One day the blessings seemed to dry up.
I tried to keep on tithing but after a few months it just became impossible. I began to grow more spiritually during this time and I also began helping less fortunate people during the process.--less focus on giving to God and more focus to caring for the poor!
I had prayed about this often--why did the financial blessings stop?

The answer was that they didn't stop they continued -- but in a different format.
God seemed to answer by reminding me of how he continued to provide for me and my family -- at times almost through miracles.
I realized that I had treated God like a slot machine. (a source of unusual money--put money in -- get money out)
I had tithed expecting financial blessings but missing the spiritual ones. I had equated Godliness with financial progress-- and had come to expect it.

I now have less financially but much more spiritually.

I now no longer focus on money issues-- period.

 

[McCravey]

ps. What I just wrote above sounds to me like I had previous been one of the "money changers" in the temple.

"Hey Lord-- its me again. Here is my $600.00 (Ain't I doing a good job!) Please bless me 100 fold...Isn't Christianity great! "

"Hey Bum--get a job! by the way are you saved? Would you like to come to my church! It's the big one on the corner. We just added a new life fellowship building. It cost us 3 million dollars. Raised the money in 6 months by faith. Sorry you are homeless though. Maybe you could come to our new building and meet God."

 

[Diakonos]

1. First of all I see it as a holiness issue. If we will accept money from such a polluted thing as gambling why not accept money from drug trafficking as well.

Because drug trafficking is illegal and gambling in Vegas (or playing the state lottery) is not.

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. Some people believe that drinking is wrong (a holiness issue). If a member of your church works at the ABC store to earn a living (an honest living), are you going to prevent them from tithing? Someone mentioned in an earlier post that gambling was addictive. Nicotene is addictive too. What if a member of your congregation is employed at Philip Morris? Is it wrong to accept money from them? What about retail sales clerks who work for The Gap or Foot Locker. Those companies profit from sweatshop labor. Should we accept their tithes and offerings? Do you see where I am going with this?

 

[waas_MI]

Sorry - a mistake