Vassula Ryden's new book

[Anhelyna]

Surely if the Greek Orthodox Church and the RC Bishops in America have investigated her writings and both Churches have disowned her , that should be enough for the laity to say / understand that there is something wrong ?

The only people I have known, who have avidly read and believed in Vassula's messages, seem to be folk who are saying I believe and because I believe I know better than the many learned people who have looked closely at her. They are becoming more and more like those who set up their Churches of one person

 

[Yoder777]

Surely if the Greek Orthodox Church and the RC Bishops in America have investigated her writings and both Churches have disowned her , that should be enough for the laity to say / understand that there is something wrong ?

Have there been priests and bishops who spoke favorably of her? For Vassula to be officially excommunicated, isn't there a formal process that would have to be done?

The only people I have known, who have avidly read and believed in Vassula's messages, seem to be folk who are saying I believe and because I believe I know better than the many learned people who have looked closely at her. They are becoming more and more like those who set up their Churches of one person

I honestly haven't read her writings so I can't comment too deeply on them, but I'd definitely rather have people pay attention to a message of hope, unity, and peace than the garbage from Rush Limbaugh that so many "true Christians" believe we must suffer through. I think it's good if we can look at things in perspective.

The New Testament says that in the last days, people will prophecize and dream dreams. I think that before we dismiss her, we should look at the actual content of the messages, the life that she lives, and how the messages may have changed people's lives for the better. These are things that I am trying to become more educated on in order to form an opinion.

 

[Yoder777]

What does it mean if Ryden's book is currently the best selling book by an Eastern Orthodox author?

Amazon Best Sellers: best Christian Orthodoxy

I honestly find this intriguing.

 

[-Kyriaki-]

Amazon is not a judge of whether or not someone is Orthodox.

As for the excommunication having to be a process - yes, and it's been done. By the Ecumenical Patriarch, no less. Are you wiser than he?

 

[Yoder777]

As for the excommunication having to be a process - yes, and it's been done. By the Ecumenical Patriarch, no less. Are you wiser than he?

Isn't there a canonical procedure necessary for someone to be excommunicated, which is different from the Patriarch accusing her writings of being heresy?

 

[buzuxi02]

Those days are thankfully over, since I am now willing to give her the same kind of fair hearing that Christian love would demand. I have no reason for rejecting her before I know what she actually has to say and why she says it.

Thats good, but if you do reject her, Ryden has a message for you or as the rejecters are caleld 'Cain', as circulated by one of her directors: Jan 2006

In rejecting Vassula, they are rejecting Christ. No wonder she experiences the passion. We must pray for them because this cannot go on and the Lord will lose his patience soon. We must pray for Vasula to be given greater strength in her sufferings. Unknown to these 'Cains' she suffers for them.



Amazing of all her visions and divine messages of unity for all christians under Rome and EO her husband has never converted to either. Never thought a bleach blonde could be smart enough to dupe the naive.

 

[Yoder777]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]The appropriate procedure for dealing with heresy is very clearly laid down in the Canon law of the Holy Church. The statement calls upon Vassula and her followers to discontinue the dissemination of the TLIG messages and to renounce their teachings in order to avoid the appropriate sanctions under the Holy Canons. Under those Canons, the prescribed penalty for heresy is Excommunication (often called anathema) but, under the Canonical procedures of the Church a decree of Excommunication can only be made after formal proceedings have taken place before the Ecclesiastical Courts or/and before a Holy Synod. Such proceedings involve a formal Complainant, a Defendant and Witnesses, and an appeal procedure (Hierarchical), regulated by Article 44.1 of the Charter of the Church of Greece

Only when this procedure has been exhausted, is the crime of transgression against the faith punished by Excommunication or sometimes by exclusion from the sacramental life of the Church for a temporary period.

[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]There have been no proceedings for Excommunication instituted before the Ecclesiastical Courts or the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in the case of Vassula Rydén. That is not surprising because the Holy Orthodox Church like the Catholic Church or the Anglican Church regards Excommunication as a last resort, an instrument to be wielded with great reserve and caution and only to be imposed after repeated warnings and discussions. No such discussions have taken place between Vassula and the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Vassula has already written to the Patriarch personally, to request that she and her Theologians enter into a proper dialogue with him. Her request is presently under consideration by the Patriarch.

[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif] Until due judicial process is established and concluded by the Church, any public comments stating or implying that Vassula and TLIG faithful have been excommunicated by the Holy Orthodox Church are wholly untrue and harmful to her and those members of TLIG who are of the Greek Orthodox faith.
http://www.defending-vassula.org/spip.php?page=article_print&id_article=311&lang=en
[/FONT][/FONT]

Unless due judicial process has been given to Ryden leading to her excommunication, please refrain from bearing false witness on an internet forum.

Contrary to popular belief, Nikos Kazantzakis was never formally excommunicated for writing The Last Temptation of Christ.
http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/777

 

[buzuxi02]

lol, She was excommunicated by the Church of Greece in 2001. And yes that is the procedure they used. After years of everyone telling her to stop, The synodal committee on heresy of the COG excommunicated her. She tried to get the attorney general of Greece to press charges on the COG Synod but she withdrew the complaint a few days before the trial knowing she had no chance

In 2011 the Holy Synod of the EP excommunicated her and asked all her followers to refrain from teaching and to refrain from any ministry within the Church. If they do not, further canonical penalties will be imposed upon them.


All this about formal proceedings in front of some non-existant 'ecclesiastical court' is nonsense. Her supporters should actually read the canons and figure out to whom the authority is given to apply them. The charter of the COG are not canons, they are the secular bylaws that guide the local greek church and take a backseat to the canons. She is an anathemized heretic.

 

[ikonographics]

Who is Vasula Ryden?
Response to the followers of Vasula Ryden
Announcement On Vassula Ryden By The Ecumenical Patriarchate
Announcement by the Church of Cyprus

 

[gzt]

I am not trying to have a debate with you, but I didn't go to college so that anonymous people on internet forums can make me not want to give a claimed visionary a fair hearing. I don't know whether or not her messages are authentic, since I personally haven't read them, but she seems sincere and genuine. I'd be interested to see if an expert in facial recognition analysis like in that tv show Lie to Me watched one of her interviews to see if she's telling the truth or not.

She could earnestly believe what she says, so it's not about "lying". Anyway, the thing is that we typically shouldn't give claimed visionaries a "fair hearing". One shouldn't vigorously oppose something without having done so, of course. But, first, the loss from ignoring her when she is in fact a visionary is 0 because we have the fullness of revelation and the loss from paying attention to her when she is not a visionary is, at the very least, wasted time given to paying attention to her and at the worst the damaging conclusion that she is right. But the prior probability of her being right is so low, I mean, the potential gain is dwarfed by the loss. Further, despite our college education, the proper consideration of her claims is outside our realm of expertise, making us far more susceptible to error in judgment. This is the same problem with looking at climate change denialists, Mercola, and David Icke: they don't really deserve a fair trial or balanced coverage, the experts have already weighed in found their whole shtick wanting, and we don't have the personal resources to debunk them.

 

[gracefullamb]

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[gracefullamb]

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[ArmyMatt]

seems pretty wacky to me. I would steer clear. while it is true that in the last days it says folks would have visions, it also says there would be wolves in sheep's clothing who could decieve the elect if possible. if the Church says she is no good, I would avoid her at all costs.

 

[Yoder777]

Further, despite our college education, the proper consideration of her claims is outside our realm of expertise, making us far more susceptible to error in judgment. This is the same problem with looking at climate change denialists, Mercola, and David Icke: they don't really deserve a fair trial or balanced coverage, the experts have already weighed in found their whole shtick wanting, and we don't have the personal resources to debunk them.

Your response seems fair but I am not one to simply trust the experts without questioning first. Historically, such unquestioning acceptance of authority has led to disaster many times over. For example, while I would not accept everything David Icke says just because he says it, it is valuable to have someone who tries to give a different perspective from the mainstream media, given how often the mainstream media has been wrong and how entrenched mainstream news agencies often are in the interests of the wealthy and powerful.

If Ryden is a sincere Christian who believes she's receiving messages from God for the unity and peace between all Christians, some people are going to reject her out of hand because a religious authority told them to while others are going to form their own conclusions after giving her a fair hearing. I am not going to make a moral judgment either way as to which choice a person makes in relation to her claims. More than anything, I am curious as to what explains her appeal to so many people and why she's currently the best selling Orthodox Christian author on Amazon.

 

[Yoder777]

It doesn't mean anything significant if you understand how books are categorized on Amazon and how few books are necessary to get on the best seller list. The publisher picks what categories they want the book listed under. In order to sell more books they list the book under as many Christian subcategories as possible. There are actual books written by atheists listed under the subcategory of Religion- Christian. The number books to get on the best seller list is less than 300, this has actually been calculated by more than one organization.

I see your point but isn't Ryden someone who self-identifies as Orthodox Christian?

 

[Anhelyna]

Yes she does self identify as an Orthodox Christian but she also does Receive Communion in RC Churches - so is she Orthodox ?

Moreover, by habitually sharing in the sacraments of the Catholic Church even though she is Greek Orthodox, Mrs. Ryden is causing considerable surprise in various circles of the Catholic Church. She appears to be putting herself above all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and every canonical norm, and in effect, is creating an ecumenical disorder that irritates many authorities, ministers and faithful of her own Church, as she puts herself outside the ecclesiastical discipline of the latter.

Taken from this Site Vassula Ryden Notification

which itself has been taken from L'Osservatore Romano - which is the newspaper of the Holy See.

 

[Yoder777]

Yes she does self identify as an Orthodox Christian but she also does Receive Communion in RC Churches - so is she Orthodox ?

That may not be so cut and cry. For example, was there not an agreement of inter-communion between Antiochian Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics?

When the Spirit desires to lead the church in a positive direction, it is often the hierarchy that lags behind, even condemning those who disagree with the views and opinions of their entrenched authority. Jesus immediately comes to mind in how he was condemned by the religious authorities of his day.

 

[Anhelyna]

Ah - officially no I believe, but it's my understanding that as a result of pastoral need it sometimes does happen - but I cannot quote any figures.

Anyway - how would anyone know ? I'm quite certain that if I am in an Orthodox Church not one other person there would realise I was Catholic. If asked - yes I do say I'm Catholic . I've stayed in Monasteries - both Catholic and Orthodox - and I'm always grateful for their hospitality - and I know how to behave and I won't abuse the hospitality shown to me by Orthodox Christians.

It's an honour system - I KNOW I may not approach the Chalice - she KNOWS she may not , according the GO Church, Commune in an RC Church - but she chooses to be disobedient .

It's her conscience - I'm not her keeper

 

[Yoder777]

Ah - officially no I believe, but it's my understanding that as a result of pastoral need it sometimes does happen - but I cannot quote any figures.

I can honestly be mistaken so I will look more into this. As for Ryden's own practice of intercommunion, I will just have to say that official church leaders often lag behind when the Spirit wants to lead the church in a positive direction.

 

[gzt]

Your response seems fair but I am not one to simply trust the experts without questioning first. Historically, such unquestioning acceptance of authority has led to disaster many times over. For example, while I would not accept everything David Icke says just because he says it, it is valuable to have someone who tries to give a different perspective from the mainstream media, given how often the mainstream media has been wrong and how entrenched mainstream news agencies often are in the interests of the wealthy and powerful.

If Ryden is a sincere Christian who believes she's receiving messages from God for the unity and peace between all Christians, some people are going to reject her out of hand because a religious authority told them to while others are going to form their own conclusions after giving her a fair hearing. I am not going to make a moral judgment either way as to which choice a person makes in relation to her claims. More than anything, I am curious as to what explains her appeal to so many people and why she's currently the best selling Orthodox Christian author on Amazon.

It is certainly your prerogative to investigate whatever you think worth investigating. I certainly don't suggest uncritically accepting the mainstream ideas, but rather to behave reasonably based on prior knowledge, which includes some measure of trust and distrust for authority. However I would just say that, on a board with a policy of enforcing adherence generally to Orthodox doctrine in posts, discussions of writings which have been condemned by the Church authorities are not going to get much traction. Perhaps in the "St Justin's" area.

If Ryden is a sincere Christian who believes she's getting messages from God, the default is almost certainly to ignore her because the burden of proof for such a remarkable course of events is rather high and the risks of believing it far outweigh the benefits. Further skepticism comes (or not, depending on your prior belief) with the knowledge that she disagrees with the Church on several things and has been condemned by the Church for her teachings.