Except Those Days Be Shortened

[Guojing]

Right, there was no 2nd Coming of Christ after Daniel's 70th Week. That Week was completed as a Half-Week in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. He was "cut off" by the Roman governor, who was complying with the Jewish mob who wanted Jesus put to death.

The 70 Weeks prophecy was designed to be fulfilled in the 6 things mentioned in Dan 9.24, describing what Christ's work would be. And then, following the completion of the 70 Weeks, the Temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed by the "Abomination of Desolation," who were the "people of the prince to come," namely the Roman Army.

Jesus described this perfectly in Luke's version. Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies, and then desolated. This was, in the other synoptic Gospels, the "Abomination of Desolation."

I see, no wonder you said you are not a Preterist.

 

[ViaCrucis]

"Future version of Revelation". Umm, that sounds like a change, bro.

Futurism is an interpretative lens through which some people read certain biblical texts, especially St. John's Apocalypse aka The Revelation.

The meaning of the Revelation has never changed. The text of the Revelation has not changed.

But how people read and interpret it certainly changes.

The Futurist reading is just one way some Christians read it, interpreting the Revelation as being principally about things which will happen in the future, i.e. near the conclusion of history.

But, again, Futurism is just one way some Christians have read it.

Some read the Revelation as being principally about events that were happening at the time John wrote it, thus the context is first century events.

Some read the Revelation as covering the entire span of history from the first century until the time of the end, and thus the context is the entire span of Christian history.

Some read the Revelation not as pertaining to a specific time, but rather the focus is on themes and ideas which can apply to multiple times, to any time, or no time at all; because it's about themes and ideas.

Broadly speaking the above views are called, respectively, Preterism, Historicism, and Idealism.

The term "Preterism" is difficult, because there isn't a single "Preterism". In the broad sense Preterism simply says that certain things have already happened, for example the Olivet Discourse's talk about the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple.

But Preterism is also a term used for two more robust eschatological systems, Partial Preterism or Orthodox Preterism is less a robust eschatological system, but more a reading of Scripture that understands some things have already happened, i.e. the destruction of the Temple in 70 Ad for example. But it also refers to a more robust eschatological system, what is often called Full Preterism or Hyper-Preterism, Hyper-Preterists don't just believe some things have already happened; instead they argue that everything is fulfilled, and they deny the literal return of the Lord in glory, the Resurrection of the dead, the Last Judgment, and a host of other basic and essential Christian doctrines. Which is why Hyper-Preterism is considered heterodox or even heretical.

But Partial or Orthodox Preterism is simply a way many Christians have read certain biblical texts, the destruction of the Temple, the abomination that causes desolation, the events described in the Revelation concerning the beast, etc.

Further: These are not mutually exclusive. A person can hold to elements of all four views. There are lots of Christians who subscribe to some elements of Futurism, but aren't full blown Futurists; in fact it is orthodox Christian teaching that Christ's return in glory is going to happen in the future, on the Last Day. So a rejection of Futurism (broadly) is not a rejectiion of everything Futurists believe.

This isn't about the Bible changing, it's about how varied and complex eschatological views frequently are.

As for myself, I lean toward a [Partial] Preterist/Idealist reading of the Revelation. More specifically, I reject straight up reject Dispensationalism in all its forms; and I reject Chiliasm aka Millenarianism aka Premillennialism. I would therefore be described as an Amillennialist.

But for the most part my eschatological views are largely just simply what the majority of Christians have believed and confessed over the last two thousand years.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[eleos1954]

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
- Matthew 24:21-22

We see here Jesus describing a time that will be worse than any other time previously, and worse than anything that ever will be. This does not describe the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70 or any other event in our history. According to this, it will even be worse than the flood. And these are the days that could very well be not too far ahead.

Luke 21:24-28,
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Here we see a specific shift from the Destruction of the temple and the scattering of the Jews among the nations, to a time when Israel should return to their land, which was 1948 for Israel becoming a nation once more. We are now in that portion of time before the return of the LORD, the Son of Man who will come in a cloud with power and great glory. We should most certainly be looking up because these things have been "beginning to come to pass" for awhile now. The convergence and escalation of things is upon us.

Daniel 12:1 also speaks of this time, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Isaiah 24:1-6 is an ominous warning, and not to be taken lightly, nor as an allegory, or anything symbolic. This is plain language of the prophet speaking the Word of the LORD Yahweh concerning what will be fall in the last days:
"Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.
The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

Isaiah 24 happens to coincide with 2 Peter 3, and I'm going to give the whole chapter here, as it is all applicable to this subject. I will highlight the relevant parts that coincide with Isaiah 24:
"This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

We see these days fast approaching. We do not know when all this will go down, but one thing is certain: it could come up on us overnight, just like a Pearl Harbor in 1941, or a 9/11 - without warning. It'll be a surprise to many. I won't be surprised at all. Every time I hear a siren and there's no storms I say "Nuclear war! We have 28 to 30 minutes!" But I'm calm about it. And so far the sirens have been either a noontime thing, or a test.

Luke 21 is excellent. I go to Luke as much as I do Matthew 24. Most folk go to Matthew 24 for Jesus discussion of end times. All Scripture on end times is important, and there's lots of it. Look at Luke 21:34-36,
"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

See that? A snare. It will be a surprise, especially to unbelievers. And where it says you be counted worthy to escape all these things may or may not mean we are taken before. It could mean we will be delivered from these things whether by divine protection or even by death, as we are delivered unto the LORD and shall be in His presence. Here is where I would admonish from mark 13, which is the only one of the 3 gospels that records this in detail,
Mark 13:32-37,
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Jesus says Watch. He says Watch again. He says Watch a third time. He don't say speculate about when, but says Watch. I'll be the first to admit I have no clue when the rapture is, if it's before the great tribulation Jesus talked about, or during it, or towards the very end of it. And no one knows. If you say you know, the Bible says here you don't know!

Best to hope and pray Jesus come soon, and He most surely can, but it's also wise to be strong in the LORD and the power of His might, and to be prepared in the event real serious persecution arises and Jesus tarries. One thing we know, He has promised to shorten those days for the sake of His elect.
Romans 9:28,
"For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth."

Revelation 1:7-8,
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 22:7, 12, 20,
"Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

The world is in chaos ... no doubt His return is soon .... no doubt there is and will be an escalation of evil in the world as the sheep get separated from the goats.

Hold on tight to Jesus .... He will indeed deliver His people in His time.

 

[AlexB23]

Futurism is an interpretative lens through which some people read certain biblical texts, especially St. John's Apocalypse aka The Revelation.

The meaning of the Revelation has never changed. The text of the Revelation has not changed.

But how people read and interpret it certainly changes.

The Futurist reading is just one way some Christians read it, interpreting the Revelation as being principally about things which will happen in the future, i.e. near the conclusion of history.

But, again, Futurism is just one way some Christians have read it.

Some read the Revelation as being principally about events that were happening at the time John wrote it, thus the context is first century events.

Some read the Revelation as covering the entire span of history from the first century until the time of the end, and thus the context is the entire span of Christian history.

Some read the Revelation not as pertaining to a specific time, but rather the focus is on themes and ideas which can apply to multiple times, to any time, or no time at all; because it's about themes and ideas.

Broadly speaking the above views are called, respectively, Preterism, Historicism, and Idealism.

The term "Preterism" is difficult, because there isn't a single "Preterism". In the broad sense Preterism simply says that certain things have already happened, for example the Olivet Discourse's talk about the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple.

But Preterism is also a term used for two more robust eschatological systems, Partial Preterism or Orthodox Preterism is less a robust eschatological system, but more a reading of Scripture that understands some things have already happened, i.e. the destruction of the Temple in 70 Ad for example. But it also refers to a more robust eschatological system, what is often called Full Preterism or Hyper-Preterism, Hyper-Preterists don't just believe some things have already happened; instead they argue that everything is fulfilled, and they deny the literal return of the Lord in glory, the Resurrection of the dead, the Last Judgment, and a host of other basic and essential Christian doctrines. Which is why Hyper-Preterism is considered heterodox or even heretical.

But Partial or Orthodox Preterism is simply a way many Christians have read certain biblical texts, the destruction of the Temple, the abomination that causes desolation, the events described in the Revelation concerning the beast, etc.

Further: These are not mutually exclusive. A person can hold to elements of all four views. There are lots of Christians who subscribe to some elements of Futurism, but aren't full blown Futurists; in fact it is orthodox Christian teaching that Christ's return in glory is going to happen in the future, on the Last Day. So a rejection of Futurism (broadly) is not a rejectiion of everything Futurists believe.

This isn't about the Bible changing, it's about how varied and complex eschatological views frequently are.

As for myself, I lean toward a [Partial] Preterist/Idealist reading of the Revelation. More specifically, I reject straight up reject Dispensationalism in all its forms; and I reject Chiliasm aka Millenarianism aka Premillennialism. I would therefore be described as an Amillennialist.

But for the most part my eschatological views are largely just simply what the majority of Christians have believed and confessed over the last two thousand years.

-CryptoLutheran

I am done with this thread. Eschatology is pointless. God bless. All these -isms turn me off from wanting to participate in eschatology.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Futurism is an interpretative lens through which some people read certain biblical texts, especially St. John's Apocalypse aka The Revelation.

The meaning of the Revelation has never changed. The text of the Revelation has not changed.

But how people read and interpret it certainly changes.

The Futurist reading is just one way some Christians read it, interpreting the Revelation as being principally about things which will happen in the future, i.e. near the conclusion of history.

But, again, Futurism is just one way some Christians have read it.

Some read the Revelation as being principally about events that were happening at the time John wrote it, thus the context is first century events.

Some read the Revelation as covering the entire span of history from the first century until the time of the end, and thus the context is the entire span of Christian history.

Some read the Revelation not as pertaining to a specific time, but rather the focus is on themes and ideas which can apply to multiple times, to any time, or no time at all; because it's about themes and ideas.

Broadly speaking the above views are called, respectively, Preterism, Historicism, and Idealism.

The term "Preterism" is difficult, because there isn't a single "Preterism". In the broad sense Preterism simply says that certain things have already happened, for example the Olivet Discourse's talk about the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple.

But Preterism is also a term used for two more robust eschatological systems, Partial Preterism or Orthodox Preterism is less a robust eschatological system, but more a reading of Scripture that understands some things have already happened, i.e. the destruction of the Temple in 70 Ad for example. But it also refers to a more robust eschatological system, what is often called Full Preterism or Hyper-Preterism, Hyper-Preterists don't just believe some things have already happened; instead they argue that everything is fulfilled, and they deny the literal return of the Lord in glory, the Resurrection of the dead, the Last Judgment, and a host of other basic and essential Christian doctrines. Which is why Hyper-Preterism is considered heterodox or even heretical.

But Partial or Orthodox Preterism is simply a way many Christians have read certain biblical texts, the destruction of the Temple, the abomination that causes desolation, the events described in the Revelation concerning the beast, etc.

Further: These are not mutually exclusive. A person can hold to elements of all four views. There are lots of Christians who subscribe to some elements of Futurism, but aren't full blown Futurists; in fact it is orthodox Christian teaching that Christ's return in glory is going to happen in the future, on the Last Day. So a rejection of Futurism (broadly) is not a rejectiion of everything Futurists believe.

This isn't about the Bible changing, it's about how varied and complex eschatological views frequently are.

As for myself, I lean toward a [Partial] Preterist/Idealist reading of the Revelation. More specifically, I reject straight up reject Dispensationalism in all its forms; and I reject Chiliasm aka Millenarianism aka Premillennialism. I would therefore be described as an Amillennialist.

But for the most part my eschatological views are largely just simply what the majority of Christians have believed and confessed over the last two thousand years.

-CryptoLutheran

The thing about Revelation is that it being written at the end of the first century, it says " to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (1:1) and we can take "shortly to bean anything from days, to centuries, because Jesus said He would come soon, yet 2000 years has passed, however 1000 years is as one day so only 2 days has past.

Then we have Rev. 4:1 where John is told, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." After, which afterwards follow. Not things that were already history, or present, but after.

I don't necessarily place all of Revelation in the future. Some of SDA teachings make sense, especially about the "locusts" of Revelation 9 comparable to the Muslim armies. If anyone wants to read,

What the Bible Says About The Rise of Islam (Revelation 9 - 5th and 6th Trumpet) - Christian Sermons And Music

This is yet another powerful bible study into the book of Revelation. It is titled, What the Bible Says About The Rise of Islam (Revelation 9 - 5th and 6th

christiansermonsandmusicvideos.com

However, I also believe this to be dual prophecy in that there is a future element to it as well. In fact, you see today terrorists do extensive damage, but they really have no "king" over them: they have various "leaders" but that changes all the time. But later in Revelation 9 you have the 200 million man army, which I believe may refer to China's military, not Muslims.

Further SDA teaches the seals of Revelation 6 include the Lisbon earthquake of Nov 1, 1755 that killed an estimated 40,000-50,000 and up to 80,000 people and created tsunami that reached the Americas. Yet many earthquakes have surpassed that before and after in death toll and destruction. The deadliest was in 1556 in China that killed 830,000 which is over 10 times the Lisbon quake. The 2023 earthquake in Turkey and Syria rivals the Lisbon quake, so I do not agree that the Lisbon quake was "IT."

they also try to say this,
"And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood” (Revelation 6:12).
May 19, 1780, is known as the Great Dark Day, in New England especially, and that night the moon did appear as blood"

We've had many dark days and blood moons since. The dark sky was attributed to forest fires.

then
“And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind” (Revelation 6:13). When the Scripture mentions stars as falling, it must mean the falling of meteors, not actual planets or suns.
Notice that within a very short time there occurred the most notable earthquake (1775), the most notable darkening of the sun and moon (1780), and the most remarkable meteor shower, that of November 13, 1833—and they came in the exact order mentioned in the Bible."

That meteor shower still seems to hold the record,

https://blogs.loc.gov/headlinesandheroes/2020/09/how-newspapers-helped-crowdsource-a-scientific-discovery-the-1833-leonid-meteor-storm/

But I don't accept that these are the seals. Precursors of them, maybe. The Tunguska event of 1908 gets little prophetic significance, but it was a mighty cosmic event that must certainly be at least a part of Jesus warning of great signs in the heavens, and the stars falling to earth. Some wilder speculations are that it represents Revelation 8:5, the censor filled with fire cast to the earth (Which I'm actually working on a message with that in it! Now I see it under Tunguska event prophetic).

A Quora question asks "What if someone told you that the Tunguska Event was when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven, fulfilling Revelation 12:9?" I read some of the answers, and of course no one believes it. I was surprised no one said "must be true because that gave him 6 years to stir up World War 1, and 6 is the number of man, and part of the mark of the beast!" (I'm joking of course) Some also think Tunguska was an alien weapon fired at earth as a warning. I'd rather believe that one, in a sense, because God is not of this world. God controls all things in the cosmos. 1900 and on started a vast increase of knowledge. It served as a warning to those who believe that God can do as he wills in heaven and earth, and if He wants to smite earth with such a plague He can so do it! Imagine if that object exploded over New York, Tokyo, London, Beijing, or Moscow?

God is in control

 

[ViaCrucis]

The thing about Revelation is that it being written at the end of the first century, it says " to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (1:1) and we can take "shortly to bean anything from days, to centuries, because Jesus said He would come soon, yet 2000 years has passed, however 1000 years is as one day so only 2 days has past.

It also says,

"Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this." - Revelation 1:19

Then we have Rev. 4:1 where John is told, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." After, which afterwards follow. Not things that were already history, or present, but after.

After what? The Greek here is meta tauta, the preposition meta can mean a lot of things, but does probably mean "after" in this context.

I don't necessarily place all of Revelation in the future. Some of SDA teachings make sense, especially about the "locusts" of Revelation 9 comparable to the Muslim armies. If anyone wants to read,

What the Bible Says About The Rise of Islam (Revelation 9 - 5th and 6th Trumpet) - Christian Sermons And Music

This is yet another powerful bible study into the book of Revelation. It is titled, What the Bible Says About The Rise of Islam (Revelation 9 - 5th and 6th

christiansermonsandmusicvideos.com

However, I also believe this to be dual prophecy in that there is a future element to it as well. In fact, you see today terrorists do extensive damage, but they really have no "king" over them: they have various "leaders" but that changes all the time. But later in Revelation 9 you have the 200 million man army, which I believe may refer to China's military, not Muslims.

Further SDA teaches the seals of Revelation 6 include the Lisbon earthquake of Nov 1, 1755 that killed an estimated 40,000-50,000 and up to 80,000 people and created tsunami that reached the Americas. Yet many earthquakes have surpassed that before and after in death toll and destruction. The deadliest was in 1556 in China that killed 830,000 which is over 10 times the Lisbon quake. The 2023 earthquake in Turkey and Syria rivals the Lisbon quake, so I do not agree that the Lisbon quake was "IT."

they also try to say this,
"And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood” (Revelation 6:12).
May 19, 1780, is known as the Great Dark Day, in New England especially, and that night the moon did appear as blood"

We've had many dark days and blood moons since. The dark sky was attributed to forest fires.

then
“And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind” (Revelation 6:13). When the Scripture mentions stars as falling, it must mean the falling of meteors, not actual planets or suns.
Notice that within a very short time there occurred the most notable earthquake (1775), the most notable darkening of the sun and moon (1780), and the most remarkable meteor shower, that of November 13, 1833—and they came in the exact order mentioned in the Bible."

That meteor shower still seems to hold the record,

https://blogs.loc.gov/headlinesandheroes/2020/09/how-newspapers-helped-crowdsource-a-scientific-discovery-the-1833-leonid-meteor-storm/

But I don't accept that these are the seals. Precursors of them, maybe. The Tunguska event of 1908 gets little prophetic significance, but it was a mighty cosmic event that must certainly be at least a part of Jesus warning of great signs in the heavens, and the stars falling to earth. Some wilder speculations are that it represents Revelation 8:5, the censor filled with fire cast to the earth (Which I'm actually working on a message with that in it! Now I see it under Tunguska event prophetic).

A Quora question asks "What if someone told you that the Tunguska Event was when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven, fulfilling Revelation 12:9?" I read some of the answers, and of course no one believes it. I was surprised no one said "must be true because that gave him 6 years to stir up World War 1, and 6 is the number of man, and part of the mark of the beast!" (I'm joking of course) Some also think Tunguska was an alien weapon fired at earth as a warning. I'd rather believe that one, in a sense, because God is not of this world. God controls all things in the cosmos. 1900 and on started a vast increase of knowledge. It served as a warning to those who believe that God can do as he wills in heaven and earth, and if He wants to smite earth with such a plague He can so do it! Imagine if that object exploded over New York, Tokyo, London, Beijing, or Moscow?

God is in control

This comes across as a lot of throwing darts at a wall.

Suffice to say, I don't read contemporary events into the Revelation. In the politest of language I can use, that's just a terrible way to read the Bible in general.

I don't believe John wrote the Revelation in a vacuum. He is writing to a specific audience, the things he wrote about were supposed to be understood by that audience.

Any interpretation that says, "Nobody until me, right now, could understand what it means" is a false interpretation. That's simply a basic and fundamental rule I follow when it comes to reading God's word. The Bible has always been God's word to His Church. I simply do not believe in modern day"prophets", sages, seers, prognosticators, apostles, or anyone who claims to have special new revelatory insight into God's word. I think this mode of thinking is intrinsically Gnostic in character, where true knowledge is available only to the special few with special access to the truth.

The necessary consequence of that is that I simply reject, wholesale, as a matter of principle, all claims which try to connect the Revelation to to whatever circumstance, event, or situation that I or someone else may want to connect it to.

I've been participating in online discussions and debates over religious topics for over two decades. And the sheer volume of people I've met who have provided either their own speculations, or who have straight up claimed total certainty that this or that is what the Revelation was talking about--and the millions of ways they all contradict one another--is vast.

In that period of time I (an American, for context) have seen five sitting US presidents called The Beast/Antichrist, and all the little tiny ways each of them fits the bill. In that time I've also seen these things identified as The Beast: The United States of America, Great Britain, Islam, the Jews, Israel, Palestine, Russia, the United Nations, the entire English-speaking world, white people, black people, China, AI, the Internet, some guy named Steve who still lives with his mother even though he's 55. And that's just talking about The Beast. I once saw a video where a woman claimed that the Monster brand energy drink was 666 because she thought the claw marks on the can were the Hebrew letter Vav, which is the Hebrew numeral for 6. The mark of the beast has been everything from credit cards to microchips to tattoos to video games to music to literally anything and everything else.

I've personally experienced over a hundred ends of the world and the Rapture has happened at least a a couple dozen times already. Every solar eclipse, every lunar eclipse, every meteor or other space rock flying by has all been proof that the end is nigh. I've met at least thirty-seven "one of the two prophets" from the Revelation. About twenty or so people claiming to be Jesus come back. I've encountered a few Elijahs, at least one Enoch, and probably 80+ apostles.

I'm just saying I've seen a lot.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

I've personally experienced over a hundred ends of the world and the Rapture has happened at least a a couple dozen times already. Every solar eclipse, every lunar eclipse, every meteor or other space rock flying by has all been proof that the end is nigh. I've met at least thirty-seven "one of the two prophets" from the Revelation. About twenty or so people claiming to be Jesus come back. I've encountered a few Elijahs, at least one Enoch, and probably 80+ apostles.

I'm just saying I've seen a lot.

-CryptoLutheran

I've also encountered this stuff. A Messianic man in Texas, now dead, claimed to be one of the 2 witnesses, and his brother the other. When his brother died, he suddenly became both witnesses!
Only one Enoch? There SHOULD be "Elijah's" but only in the sense of coming in the spirit of Elijah. John the Baptist wasn't Elijah in the flesh, but came in the spirit of, just as Elisha received a double portion of Elijahs spirit when he was taken up.

" And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:4-5)

" Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." (24:23-26)

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've also encountered this stuff. A Messianic man in Texas, now dead, claimed to be one of the 2 witnesses, and his brother the other. When his brother died, he suddenly became both witnesses!
Only one Enoch? There SHOULD be "Elijah's" but only in the sense of coming in the spirit of Elijah. John the Baptist wasn't Elijah in the flesh, but came in the spirit of, just as Elisha received a double portion of Elijahs spirit when he was taken up.

" And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:4-5)

" Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." (24:23-26)

And we've seen these things for the last two thousand years. There's been no shortage of false messiahs, false prophets, and fake signs and wonders since the day our Lord ascended.

There was a false messiah just a few years after Jesus' ascension, a man by the name of Theudas, mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles. The Didache, written during the lifetime of the Apostles, warns about traveling preachers/prophets who are actually conmen there to exploit the Faithful. Heretics, like Cerinthus, was one of the reasons why St. John wrote and warned of antichrists in his epistles. Later heretics like Marcion of Sinope, Valentinus, and Montanus of Phrygia all created their own churches in the 2nd century. Montanus in particular, claimed that he and his two female prophetic companions were prophets ushering in a new era of the Holy Spirit, they even managed to seduce Tertullian of Carthage, one of the most important late 2nd and early 3rd century Christian writers into their sect.

So we should understand that the Lord's warnings are not about a specific future time, but are general warnings--to not listen to people claiming the end is near. It's the same reason we are not to consider "wars and rumors of wars" or "nations rising against nations" as signs of the end, instead these are called "birth pains"; these are the symptoms of a fallen world in disorder, in pain. The same way that St. Paul speaks of creation as being made subject to the futility of death, and so groans in birth pains longing for the future resurrection in Romans 8.; because when Jesus returns and the dead are raised, God will make all things new.

It's why if anyone says "this is a sign of the end" we shouldn't believe it. There will be false teachers, heretics, false prophets, false messiahs, there will be disasters and wars, there will be "signs and wonders" that fool a lot of people. But that's not the End, that's just a broken, sinful, fallen world. The End comes when our Lord returns, with the glorious trumpet of God and the shout of an archangel, and the graves erupt and the dead are raised; all in the twinkling of an eye; Christ the Lord comes in Judgment. Two will be in field, one taken (in judgment) and the other left; two will be at the grind mill, one taken (in judgment), the other left. For when Judgment comes, it comes without warning, just like the flood in Noah's time. Therefore, we should be like the faithful servant, committed to the Master's work and command.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

And we've seen these things for the last two thousand years. There's been no shortage of false messiahs, false prophets, and fake signs and wonders since the day our Lord ascended.

There was a false messiah just a few years after Jesus' ascension, a man by the name of Theudas, mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles. The Didache, written during the lifetime of the Apostles, warns about traveling preachers/prophets who are actually conmen there to exploit the Faithful. Heretics, like Cerinthus, was one of the reasons why St. John wrote and warned of antichrists in his epistles. Later heretics like Marcion of Sinope, Valentinus, and Montanus of Phrygia all created their own churches in the 2nd century. Montanus in particular, claimed that he and his two female prophetic companions were prophets ushering in a new era of the Holy Spirit, they even managed to seduce Tertullian of Carthage, one of the most important late 2nd and early 3rd century Christian writers into their sect.

So we should understand that the Lord's warnings are not about a specific future time, but are general warnings--to not listen to people claiming the end is near. It's the same reason we are not to consider "wars and rumors of wars" or "nations rising against nations" as signs of the end, instead these are called "birth pains"; these are the symptoms of a fallen world in disorder, in pain. The same way that St. Paul speaks of creation as being made subject to the futility of death, and so groans in birth pains longing for the future resurrection in Romans 8.; because when Jesus returns and the dead are raised, God will make all things new.

It's why if anyone says "this is a sign of the end" we shouldn't believe it. There will be false teachers, heretics, false prophets, false messiahs, there will be disasters and wars, there will be "signs and wonders" that fool a lot of people. But that's not the End, that's just a broken, sinful, fallen world. The End comes when our Lord returns, with the glorious trumpet of God and the shout of an archangel, and the graves erupt and the dead are raised; all in the twinkling of an eye; Christ the Lord comes in Judgment. Two will be in field, one taken (in judgment) and the other left; two will be at the grind mill, one taken (in judgment), the other left. For when Judgment comes, it comes without warning, just like the flood in Noah's time. Therefore, we should be like the faithful servant, committed to the Master's work and command.

-CryptoLutheran

True, but the scripture also says when these things BEGIN to come to pass then look up for your redemption draweth nigh. We should be looking for and hasting the coming of the day of God according to 2 peter 3;11-12

 

[Bro.T]

Five times the bible set the time of the great tribulation at 3 1/2 Years which also is the time of the reign of the beast and the false prophet: 1 in Daniel 7:25;...time and times and the dividing of time. 2 Daniel 12:7 "times, times, and an half." 3 Revelation 11:2...and the holy city shall they tread under foot for forty and two months. 4 Revelation 11:3...and they (two witnesses), shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score days (1260 days), and 5 Revelation 13:5 "power was given unto him to continue forty and two month (3 1/2 years)."

Most theologians and writers ignore all the scriptures that set a 3 1/2 years times limit on the reign of the anti-Christ and the beast (which is the time of the great tribulations). They all say there will be seven years of tribulation; and they all use the 9th chapter of Daniel to try to prove it. It is also said by them that the ant-Christ is going to make a covenant with the Jews for the one week (7years), and in the middle of the week (after 3 1/2 years), he is going to break the covenant, and stop the Jews from sacrificing animals and pollute the sanctuary, then they go on to say that at the end of the week (7years), the Lord is going to come and pour out his wrath upon this destroyer.

These scripture lets us know that the great tribulation will not start until the abomination (false prophet) gets there. The four other scripture we named earlier says he will only stay for 3 1/2years. The 9th chapter of Daniel is not talking about the false prophet, neither is it talking about the same time. Part of that scripture has already been fulfilled, even down to destruction (consumption) of Jerusalem and that which was determined has already been poured out upon the Jews, which are the desolate and not the desolator. It is awfully strange that people with great understanding of words do not know the different between the words make, and confirm "the covenant" with many for one week, not make a covenant with many. The desolate is one who is being destroyed, and the desolator is the one who is doing the destroying. When people make a covenant they are re-establishing an agreement that has already been made in the past.