Vaccines and Abortion - Inconsistent Logic

[Tree of Life]

Dr. Dianne Irving wrote this in the International Journal of Sociology and Social Policy. For your consideration:

"To begin with, scientifically something very radical occurs between the processes of gametogenesis and fertilization the change from a simple part of one human being (i.e., a sperm) and a simple part of another human being (i.e., an oocyte usually referred to as an "ovum" or "egg"), which simply possess "human life", to a new, genetically unique, newly existing, individual, whole living human being (a single-cell embryonic human zygote). That is, upon fertilization, parts of human beings have actually been transformed into something very different from what they were before; they have been changed into a single, whole human being. During the process of fertilization, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist as such, and a new human being is produced."

When Do Human Beings Begin?

She's not a pro-lifer as far as I can tell. Where would you disagree with her in the quote?

 

[Tree of Life]

This is what I was talking about earlier - eggs and sperm also have unique human DNA, in that they have a random subsection of the DNA from other humans.

But they are not organisms and don't have a full set of DNA.

 

[Tree of Life]

So do cancer cells.

Cancer cells are not organisms.

 

[KCfromNC]

Dr. Dianne Irving wrote this in the International Journal of Sociology and Social Policy. For your consideration:

"To begin with, scientifically something very radical occurs between the processes of gametogenesis and fertilization the change from a simple part of one human being (i.e., a sperm) and a simple part of another human being (i.e., an oocyte usually referred to as an "ovum" or "egg"), which simply possess "human life", to a new, genetically unique, newly existing, individual, whole living human being (a single-cell embryonic human zygote). That is, upon fertilization, parts of human beings have actually been transformed into something very different from what they were before; they have been changed into a single, whole human being. During the process of fertilization, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist as such, and a new human being is produced."

When Do Human Beings Begin?

She's not a pro-lifer as far as I can tell. Where would you disagree with her in the quote?

I'm sure she is accurately expressing her opinion, which is one of many on the subject.

 

[KCfromNC]

But they are not organisms and don't have a full set of DNA.

A criteria which was nowhere to be found the post I quoted. And I'd be careful about adding it, because it leads to the conclusion that certain genetic diseases cause humans to not be human beings.

 

[Tree of Life]

I'm sure she is accurately expressing her opinion, which is one of many on the subject.

I'd say it's uncontroversial in both science and philosophy that a fetus is a human being. This does not necessarily mean that a fetus is a person or that a fetus has rights. But the fact that a fetus is a human being is not seriously contested.

If a fetus is not a human being, then what is it? It is a unique organism with its own human DNA. What would it be if not a human?

 

[KCfromNC]

Cancer cells are not organisms.

By what criteria?

 

[KCfromNC]

I'd say it's uncontroversial in both science and philosophy that a fetus is a human being.

I'm sure you would. The issue isn't saying things, it is in providing reasons to believe what you say accurately represents reality.

This does not necessarily mean that a fetus is a person or that a fetus has rights. But the fact that a fetus is a human being is not seriously contested.

If it has nothing to do with the discussion, then why bring it up at all? I sense a massive bait-and-switch incoming, to be honest.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Depends on how you define human and life.

Uh, no, contraception is preventing any possbility of a sperm and egg coming together. So there is no embryo or fetus in the uterus, and therefore no life that can be killed before birth.

 

[KCfromNC]

Uh, no, contraception is preventing any possbility of a sperm and egg coming together. So there is no person in the uterus.

I never said anything about a person.

 

[Tree of Life]

By what criteria?

By what biologists mean by "organism". Humans are multicellular organisms. Cancer cells are human cells.

 

[Tree of Life]

I'm sure you would. The issue isn't saying things, it is in providing reasons to believe what you say accurately represents reality.

Could you point me to a serious philosopher or scientist who argues that a human fetus is not a human?

If it has nothing to do with the discussion, then why bring it up at all? I sense a massive bait-and-switch incoming, to be honest.

You brought it up. I said that killing a fetus is killing a human. You denied that a fetus is a human.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I never said anything about a person.

You said contraception is the same as abortion, correct? That was the part I am rebutting.

 

[Tree of Life]

@KCfromNC Could you make a suggestion as to what a human fetus is since you deny that it is a human?

 

[KCfromNC]

Could you point me to a serious philosopher or scientist who argues that a human fetus is not a human?

Yes, of course. Took like 2 seconds to find : When Does a Human Life Begin? 17 Timepoints | DNA Science Blog

But I'm not sure how it helps. You're just going to disagree with them, and that's great. But the fact that people educated on the facts do disagree is strong evidence that your claims are wrong about this being a decided question in the field.

You brought it up. I said that killing a fetus is killing a human.

Killing a human being. That phrase typically has connotations larger than, say, oh no a skin cell died.

 

[KCfromNC]

You said contraception is the same as abortion, correct? That was the part I am rebutting.

No, I said that it is especially hard to use empirically-based arguments against abortion which also don't end up making contraception just as bad.

It is a side effect of there being no clear definition of when a human being arises in the process - it is a continuum.

 

[KCfromNC]

@KCfromNC Could you make a suggestion as to what a human fetus is since you deny that it is a human?

What purpose would that serve? I'm not the one hoping to use the force of the state to enforce my opinions on the matter on pregnant women.

But if you'll want me to, I'd like you to lock down which definition of human you're looking for me to comment on. There's a lot of equivocation flying around here, between human, human life, human being, person, and so on, so as is I don't even know what you're asking.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yes, of course. Took like 2 seconds to find : When Does a Human Life Begin? 17 Timepoints | DNA Science Blog

The author calls the 4-6 week old organism a human. She says: "A 4 or 6 week prenatal human is not a fetus — the difference is not arbitrary, it has biological meaning." (Emphasis mine).

I also think that the author is a little confused about the distinction between human and person, but that's another matter.

But I'm not sure how it helps. You're just going to disagree with them, and that's great. But the fact that people educated on the facts do disagree is strong evidence that your claims are wrong about this being a decided question in the field.

See above.

 

[Tree of Life]

What purpose would that serve? I'm not the one hoping to use the force of the state to enforce my opinions on the matter on pregnant women.

But if you'll want me to, I'd like you to lock down which definition of human you're looking for me to comment on. There's a lot of equivocation flying around here, between human, human life, human being, person, and so on, so as is I don't even know what you're asking.

I'm not saying a fetus is a person. I'm saying a fetus is a unique human individual. I would define a human individual as an organism which has human DNA.

 

[KCfromNC]

The author calls a the 4-6 week old organism a human. She says: "A 4 or 6 week prenatal human is not a fetus — the difference is not arbitrary, it has biological meaning." (Emphasis mine).

You're equivocating on "human" vs "a human". Human skin cells are human, but not "a human" as in human life or a human being.