Vaccinations

[Steezie]

I have a question for people who are opposed to mandatory vaccinations or just vaccinations in general.

What do we do to prevent an epidemic? What happens when people stop trusting vaccines and dont get them? Thats called an at-risk population, a population suseptible to infectious diseases combined with the ability to move quickly from one place to another.

If an infectious disease gets into that population, it will spread quickly because of the ease of movement. Then you have an epidemic on your hands

That means thousands of deaths, possibly tens of thousands, or in the worst case millions of deaths. The Black Death killed rough 70 million people worldwide, 20-30 million in Europe alone. And that was with travel that took days, weeks, months, even years for long tips. Immagine how fast an infectious disease would spread if a person could catch the disease in Los Angeles, board a plane, then disembark in Beijing and not have even begun to feel sick yet. Imagine an infectious disease moving through a world where people can cross the world in hours.

If the Black Death were to hit the modern world (Or a similar disease to which there was no vaccine or cure for) I would say that the death toll would be half a billion at least, especially when the disease hits areas with poor medical care and experience like East Asia or Africa. To put that in perspective, the population of the United States is 300,000,000 people.

So what do we do?

Shut down the airports? By the time it gets to that stage the disease will already have infected thousands of people. By that point, the disease can still move overland and spread. There are still mail planes, freight carriers, other vital air transport services that have to operate. The crews of which can still get sick and pass the disease on at the next port of call. This is BESIDES the massive economic damage such a shutdown would cause.

So, to my original question, what do we do when we have a contagious disease, a population that can cross the world in hours, and no viable way to stop travel?

 

[Bombila]

You likely remember the SARS epidemic in Toronto and China. This link presents an overview of ethical responses to that situation.

http://www.yorku.ca/igreene/sars.html

SARS had the potential to be just such an epidemic as you propose, but quarantine and other measures did in fact work to prevent that from happening.

As for shutting down travel: I'm sure you recall that is exactly what was done following 9/11. Travel can be controlled, and stopped, in first world countries, and to and from third world countries. There would be economic consequences, of course, but even the most idiotic of governments would weigh those consequences against millions of dead citizens, because millions of dead citizens would also cause massive economic consequences, of a considerably more lasting nature than a few weeks or months of restricted travel.

But to address your main question, regarding people avoiding vaccination to the point of putting the population at risk: by the time hundreds of children are dead from a resurgence of, say, diptheria, most of the antivaccine brigade would have changed their tune, preferring to protect their children from present real danger as opposed to speculative future harm, at which point availability of appropriate vaccine becomes the problem.

 

[Steezie]

SARS also only has a mortality rate of about 10% which is extremely low. Compared to the Black Death which had a mortality rate of between 30-75%. Also SARS can be protected against via simple respiratory protection.

Quarantine measures would help slow the spread of the disease, but how do you protect people who HAVE to travel long distances? All it takes is one person to get infected, get on a plane, and go to a far off place before he ever starts showing symptoms.

 

[flicka]

..by the time hundreds of children are dead from a resurgence of, say, diptheria, most of the antivaccine brigade would have changed their tune, preferring to protect their children from present real danger as opposed to speculative future harm..

That about sums it up.

When not faced with a serious threat people will find less serious threats. Since the disease isn't an immediate threat, the possible side effects have been placed front and center. It's good that we have the breathing room right now to improve upon the vaccines but those completely opposed to them, especially for so-called religious reasons, are just fools. Plain and simple.

 

[Battie]

I'm all for most vaccines, but I've never gotten a flu shot. People who risk serious harm from getting the flu should have them, but I worry that if everyone gets them we're going to help the next superbug evolve, in the same way that our overuse of antibiotics fosters resistant bacteria.

This fear may be unfounded, though. I will see what I can dig up.

 

[trunks2k]

I've never gotten the flu shot because on a cost vs benefit ratio, it's not worth it for me. I'm young and healthy, so the flu isn't gonna kill me in the vast majority of cases. It's not worth the $10 to get the shot. I'd rather take a few days off from work, that's what sick days are for.

 

[flicka]

I started getting flu shots after my son and I came down with a particularly nasty one that had us running 102 fevers for 10 days. I don't work so I didn't need to use sick days but I still had a life that had to be put on hold for almost 2 weeks. I usually get them for under $10 at the grocery store or something but this year my Dr offered me one when I went in for an unrelated issue, so I didn't have to pay anything

 

[Bombila]

SARS also only has a mortality rate of about 10% which is extremely low. Compared to the Black Death which had a mortality rate of between 30-75%. Also SARS can be protected against via simple respiratory protection.

Quarantine measures would help slow the spread of the disease, but how do you protect people who HAVE to travel long distances? All it takes is one person to get infected, get on a plane, and go to a far off place before he ever starts showing symptoms.

A 10% mortality rate with modern medical assistance is not low, it is quite serious. You can't compare it to the Black Plague, for various reasons, among them, lack of medical experise in that era, lack of understanding plague vectors, weakened immune systems of vast portions of the population due to poor nutrition and other factors.

SARS was also spread by contact with infected surfaces, not just airborne respiratory fluids, and it was also true that most of the commonly available masks people wore were too open (in weave and in fit) to protect the users from minute virus laden particles.

In a desperate quarantine situation, very few people HAVE to travel. Once the contagious nature of a disease is known, which doesn't take that long (virus? bacteria? airborne? contact? water supply?, etc.) appropriate measures can be taken to protect first responders, medical personel and military personnel, with proper masks, breathing apparatus if necessary, and biohazard protocols.

Yes, we are overdue for another flu pandemic, and if care is not taken, a lot of people could die.

As for flu shots, I've taken them for years, originally because I worked with kids, who are often flu victims, and now because I am around older people a lot, and don't want to infect them should I catch flu. It's fine, as someone said, to be young and healthy and able to fight off the flu (though the 1918 flu, unusual in nature, was particularly hard on that very group), but you should try not to be around vulnerable age groups to pass on your infection.

 

[KalithAlur]

faith healing is gaining some grounds,

spontaneous faith-based remissions happen even with diseases as severe as cancer, possibly tied to positive thinking and positive mental attitude and convincing your body to recover,

because placebo can cure cancer too, only the cancer comes back when you find out you'r taking a placebo

 

[Autumnleaf]

Vaccines have been used in Africa and I think the Phillipines to sterilize people and induce abortions. Aside from the possibility of vaccines being used for such things there is little reason to fear them.

 

[billwald]

unvaccinated people are no threat to vaccinated people.

 

[Steezie]

A 10% mortality rate with modern medical assistance is not low, it is quite serious.

As contagious as SARS is, 10% is fairly low. Most people who get it survive, theres less than a thousand deaths a year. In the 02-03 pandemic in Asia, the PRC reported over 5,000 cases but less than 350 deaths.

You can't compare it to the Black Plague, for various reasons, among them, lack of medical experise in that era, lack of understanding plague vectors, weakened immune systems of vast portions of the population due to poor nutrition and other factors.

I wasnt comparing SARS to the Black Death, I was simply highlighting that if a disease could spread that widely in a world where travel took a long time, think how fast it could spread in the modern world where it might reach the four corners of the globe before it becomes apparent that theres a problem.

In a desperate quarantine situation, very few people HAVE to travel.

No? Who moves the food? Medicines? Money? Who delivers supplies to places like water treatment plants, power plants? People DO have to travel, and those people cannot be kept in a total vacuum.

faith healing is gaining some grounds,

So is rap, quantity doesnt mean quality.

Vaccines have been used in Africa and I think the Phillipines to sterilize people and induce abortions. Aside from the possibility of vaccines being used for such things there is little reason to fear them.

Im guessing you can back that up with something

unvaccinated people are no threat to vaccinated people.

Yes they are, un-vaccinated people give a disease a place to mutate and grow, possibly becoming resistant to vaccines and then spreading to vaccinated people

 

[EnemyPartyII]

No one should be forced to have a vaccination against their will.

That said, there is absolutely no concievable, sensible reason why anyone should ever willingly decline a vaccination

 

[ReverendDG]

Vaccines have been used in Africa and I think the Phillipines to sterilize people and induce abortions. Aside from the possibility of vaccines being used for such things there is little reason to fear them.

do you have any proof of this? i've never heard of anyone becoming sterile or having an abortion from vaccination
sounds to me like the same nonsense that people get autism from vaccines

 

[EnemyPartyII]

do you have any proof of this? i've never heard of anyone becoming sterile or having an abortion from vaccination
sounds to me like the same nonsense that people get autism from vaccines

utter baloney. There is NO vaccine that will induce either abortion or sterility.

I stand by said comment until contrary evidence comes to light.

 

[Autumnleaf]

do you have any proof of this? i've never heard of anyone becoming sterile or having an abortion from vaccination
sounds to me like the same nonsense that people get autism from vaccines

Acutally yes. I was there in the lab when we isolated the antigens which would cause a mother to reject the baby she is pregnant with. I then oversaw the batches of the vaccine being created and the distribution of those vaccines throughout targeted third world populations. We piggybacked the antigens for pregnancy along with the polio vaccine so the people would not fuss about it.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04031101.html

Just kidding. I wasn't there. But you can bet someone else was.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Acutally yes. I was there in the lab when we isolated the antigens which would cause a mother to reject the baby she is pregnant with. I then oversaw the batches of the vaccine being created and the distribution of those vaccines throughout targeted third world populations. We piggybacked the antigens for pregnancy along with the polio vaccine so the people would not fuss about it.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04031101.html

Just kidding. I wasn't there. But you can bet someone else was.

right. So, where's the peer reviewed article? If this allegation were true it would be headline news world wide

 

[Bombila]

Acutally yes. I was there in the lab when we isolated the antigens which would cause a mother to reject the baby she is pregnant with. I then oversaw the batches of the vaccine being created and the distribution of those vaccines throughout targeted third world populations. We piggybacked the antigens for pregnancy along with the polio vaccine so the people would not fuss about it.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04031101.html

Just kidding. I wasn't there. But you can bet someone else was.

Autumnleaf, do you think it is ethical to spread old propaganda driven disinformation about these vaccines, when in the countries where it matters, many children contract polio?

For an overview of these accusations, including distrust fostered by the activities of Pfizer in drug tests, and distrust fostered by the war in Iraq, see here:

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/pe...ocument&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0040073&ct=1

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Autumnleaf, do you think it is ethical to spread old propaganda driven disinformation about these vaccines, when in the countries where it matters, many children contract polio?

For an overview of these accusations, including distrust fostered by the activities of Pfizer in drug tests, and distrust fostered by the war in Iraq, see here:

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/pe...ocument&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0040073&ct=1

Oh now come on... baseless, pseudo scientific allegations are so much more fun than having to go to the trouble of understanding the actual relevant data!

 

[Bombila]

Oh now come on... baseless, pseudo scientific allegations are so much more fun than having to go to the trouble of understanding the actual relevant data!

More fun for some, obviously. But I would sooner have people ranting away at me about hellfire all day long than see this kind of harmful rubbish given any kind of pseudo-validity in any forum. You can't flame Christians or mock God in this place, but it's all right to spread nonsense which is even now endangering Muslim children in several countries, despite the dispute having been settled to the satisfaction of even the Muslim states involved.