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Root of Jesse

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In the sense that one person can think that something is racist and another person can think it isn't - sure. However, opinions can be wrong. If someone is offended by something, saying that you don't think it's offensive doesn't negate the fact that they were offended.
I've been offended by a lot of things, but I don't try to limit the offenders the way they do. Lots of things in this world are offensive. Affirmative Action is offensive. Social Engineering is offensive. Trying to submarine people's views is offensive.
Two parts to this:
1. "Both sides do it" isn't an excuse. I condemn racism on both sides of the aisle. And I thought you said that it wasn't racist? Change your mind?
I didn't ever say Biden was racist. In fact, I don't think he is. Wrong, yes. Offensive to some, yes. Racist, no.
2. The Democratic Party of the 1960s is not the same as the Democratic Party of 50+ years later. The vast majority of Democrats who did not support civil rights legislation left the Democratic Party after the Civil Rights Act was passed and joined the Republicans as part of Nixon's Southern Strategy. If you look at the divide between people who voted for and against the Civil Rights Act, the clear deciding factor is North vs. South, not Democrat vs. Republican. Southern Republicans voted against the CRA and Northern Democrats voted for it. However, most Democrats at the time came from Southern states, while most Republicans came from Northern states, so it should be no surprise that most Democrats voted against it while most Republicans voted for it. This idea has been refuted many, many times on this forum, and yet people keep bringing it up as of it's some kind of "gotcha." It isn't.
Slavery was a heck of a long time ago, too, yet Democrats keep bringing up reparations, as if that can solve anything. The only thing that's going to solve anything is to stop dividing people into race/sex/gender groups and treat people as people.
Agreed. You said that because "Indian" wasn't a race, it couldn't be racist. Now that we've cleared up that "Indian" in this case means "Native American," which is a race, can you agree that it was racist?
Actually, that's not a race, either.
It's not that long of an article and you clearly have time to respond to this thread, so why not? You've had a few weeks since I made the post - surely you could find 20 minutes somewhere to educate yourself.
Not really. Between doctor appointments and blood transfusions and chemo treatments, not much time in the day. Then there's trying to clean house.
Why does the fact that it's anecdotal matter? You claim that because he smoked weed in high school, he must have been a bad student - in other words, anyone who smokes weed is a poor student. Even a single example disproves that claim. I provided an example - multiple, in fact, because I knew several people who smoked weed while being good students. Therefore, your claim is false.
In my experience, people who used drugs while in school were generally poor students, including me. So there's my example that sez you're wrong. Generally speaking, taking drugs inhibits learning.
And transfer grades being more important than high school grades isn't anecdotal. That's a fact. If he was a good student at his transfer college, then, even if he barely passed high school, it wouldn't matter very much.
I don't think we know his transfer grades. And who says he stopped doing drugs in high school?
You claimed he bought his way into school. He did not - his family was not rich enough to do something like that.
I didn't claim any such thing. And since when does it have to be his family that helped him?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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I've been offended by a lot of things, but I don't try to limit the offenders the way they do. Lots of things in this world are offensive. Affirmative Action is offensive. Social Engineering is offensive. Trying to submarine people's views is offensive.
Ok. I don't see anyone trying to limit Trump for his racist speech either. In fact, I see quite a few people cheering it on. I do see people trying to call him out for it and expressing their displeasure though, which I'm sure you do as well with the things you listed above.
I didn't ever say Biden was racist. In fact, I don't think he is. Wrong, yes. Offensive to some, yes. Racist, no.
Please explain the significance of the Biden quote that you posted in relation to the Trump quote you posted it in response to. That was my original question, which you still have not answered.
Actually, that's not a race, either.
It is as far as the census is concerned. You're splitting hairs. Was Trump's statement about Native Americans and "Indian" gaming casinos racist or not?
Not really. Between doctor appointments and blood transfusions and chemo treatments, not much time in the day. Then there's trying to clean house.
And yet you're still taking time to respond to this thread.
In my experience, people who used drugs while in school were generally poor students, including me. So there's my example that sez you're wrong. Generally speaking, taking drugs inhibits learning.
More accurate, but that doesn't disprove my statement. Just because you were a poor student on drugs does not mean that Obama must have been. It certainly makes it more likely - because I agree that most people who skip school and do drugs are poor students - but if that's the only evidence that you have for someone being a poor student, that's not very solid.
I don't think we know his transfer grades. And who says he stopped doing drugs in high school?
We don't know either of those things, but we also haven't heard anything about him using drugs or being a poor student in college. Since he was able to transfer to Columbia, I believe that would suggest that he was a good student at the time.
I didn't claim any such thing. And since when does it have to be his family that helped him?
Um, yes, you did claim that. When you brought up his drug use and skipping school, you finished with the statement "But we've seen how people with money can buy their way into a school." If you believe that he didn't get in on academic merits, then that certainly implies that you think he bought his way in. And if not his family, then who else? He was a nobody at the time.

Honestly, at this point, I think you really need to go back and re-read your own posts - you're going in circles.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Ok. I don't see anyone trying to limit Trump for his racist speech either. In fact, I see quite a few people cheering it on. I do see people trying to call him out for it and expressing their displeasure though, which I'm sure you do as well with the things you listed above.
Considering the major networks only cover him in respect to racism among other negatives, yes, most other than Fox and Newsmax are trying to limit him.
Please explain the significance of the Biden quote that you posted in relation to the Trump quote you posted it in response to. That was my original question, which you still have not answered.
I answered that a long time ago. I've heard some say that what he said was racist. I don't think it's racist, and I'm not a Biden fan. I think it has prejudice, but not racism. I would say the same of Trump-probably prejudiced but not racism.
It is as far as the census is concerned. You're splitting hairs. Was Trump's statement about Native Americans and "Indian" gaming casinos racist or not?
Nope. Prejudiced, sure.
And yet you're still taking time to respond to this thread.
Yeah, in my spare time, but thanks for your criticism. Oh, I know, that's only my opinion that you're being critical.
More accurate, but that doesn't disprove my statement. Just because you were a poor student on drugs does not mean that Obama must have been. It certainly makes it more likely - because I agree that most people who skip school and do drugs are poor students - but if that's the only evidence that you have for someone being a poor student, that's not very solid.
But it's a good supposition.
We don't know either of those things, but we also haven't heard anything about him using drugs or being a poor student in college. Since he was able to transfer to Columbia, I believe that would suggest that he was a good student at the time.
Or he fit the right profile.
Um, yes, you did claim that. When you brought up his drug use and skipping school, you finished with the statement "But we've seen how people with money can buy their way into a school." If you believe that he didn't get in on academic merits, then that certainly implies that you think he bought his way in. And if not his family, then who else? He was a nobody at the time.
Well, I was talking about more recent celebs buying the way of their children into college, but I guess that flew over your head. I never said where the money might have come from, regarding Obama.
Honestly, at this point, I think you really need to go back and re-read your own posts - you're going in circles.
Following you.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Considering the major networks only cover him in respect to racism among other negatives, yes, most other than Fox and Newsmax are trying to limit him.
There's plenty of coverage of Trump on major networks that has nothing to do with his racist remarks and actions. And reporting on things that the President says is exactly the opposite of limiting him. If anything they're giving him a bigger platform by spreading his words. Limiting him would be refusing to report his words or people suing him over his language. That's not happening.

An important thing to remember about the First Amendment: you have the right to say what you want. However, that right doesn't mean that people have to like what you say. If you say something that makes people angry, that's on you. If they're angry enough that they stop buying your products or actively express their dislike, that's also on you - they're exercising their own right to free speech.

I answered that a long time ago. I've heard some say that what he said was racist. I don't think it's racist, and I'm not a Biden fan. I think it has prejudice, but not racism. I would say the same of Trump-probably prejudiced but not racism.
I'm still not seeing how a comment from Biden is a response to a comment from Trump if you're not trying to use it to excuse Trump's comment.

Nope. Prejudiced, sure.
Prejudiced based on race, right? Because that's literally the dictionary definition of racism. If it makes you feel better to call it prejudice instead, that's your prerogative, but calling a turd "pudding" doesn't make it taste any better.

Yeah, in my spare time, but thanks for your criticism. Oh, I know, that's only my opinion that you're being critical.
One would think that if you were actually interested in a serious discussion, you would take some of that free time to read an article that explains the positions of the person you are discussing with rather than complaining about your lack of free time to do so...in your free time.

But it's a good supposition.
You are free to suppose what you like, but suppositions are not proof.

Or he fit the right profile.
Perhaps. Or his grades were good. Or both. You're just spitballing at this point.

Well, I was talking about more recent celebs buying the way of their children into college, but I guess that flew over your head. I never said where the money might have come from, regarding Obama
Oh, I understood that much. You're still insinuating that he bought his way in though - if not his family, where would the money have come from?
 
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Root of Jesse

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There's plenty of coverage of Trump on major networks that has nothing to do with his racist remarks and actions. And reporting on things that the President says is exactly the opposite of limiting him. If anything they're giving him a bigger platform by spreading his words. Limiting him would be refusing to report his words or people suing him over his language. That's not happening.
There are lots of ways to limit someone. You can call everything he says 'racist' in an attempt to shut him up. Here's an example in the news today: The president took funds from disaster relief to make more comfortable living spaces on the border, as a solution to what the Left has denounced a inhumane (even though Obama instituted it, and implemented it). Some weaker people would throw up their hands because 'damned if you do, damned if you don't. What the MSM is finding out is that Trump doesn't care what they say about him, because he knows what his heart is, and where it is.
An important thing to remember about the First Amendment: you have the right to say what you want. However, that right doesn't mean that people have to like what you say. If you say something that makes people angry, that's on you. If they're angry enough that they stop buying your products or actively express their dislike, that's also on you - they're exercising their own right to free speech.
I'm sure he doesn't care if they like what he says. But they don't give him the choice of being heard much. And when he denounces racism and the KKK, they just say "OK, but he doesn't mean it." As if they know his heart.
I'm still not seeing how a comment from Biden is a response to a comment from Trump if you're not trying to use it to excuse Trump's comment.
From here, I'll let you figure it out. I wasn't trying to excuse Trump.
Prejudiced based on race, right? Because that's literally the dictionary definition of racism. If it makes you feel better to call it prejudice instead, that's your prerogative, but calling a turd "pudding" doesn't make it taste any better.
Prejudice is different from racism, though racism is an extreme form of prejudice. We all have prejudice. I like Asian women better than Caucasian women. That's a prejudice. I generally don't like tattoo'd people. That's a prejudice. If I was in a position to hire, and chose an Asian woman just because she's Asian, that's racism.
Racism is the attribution of some characteristic to a person because of their race. For example, we used to think, as a culture, that blacks were better athletes. That's a form of racism. Denying people the right to a job or a home because of their race is racism.
One of the examples long ago was about Trump's use of employees at his casino, they said that he moved black dealers from the high rollers area. The fact is, Trump didn't fire them from their job. And they may have been black, but there may have been a different reason for moving them.
One would think that if you were actually interested in a serious discussion, you would take some of that free time to read an article that explains the positions of the person you are discussing with rather than complaining about your lack of free time to do so...in your free time.
I think you're explaining your positions quite well. No need to read someone else's words. On the other hand, I have the right to do with my free time, such as it is, as I like.
You are free to suppose what you like, but suppositions are not proof.
You're right. Neither are your suppositions about Trump being a racist.
Perhaps. Or his grades were good. Or both. You're just spitballing at this point.


Oh, I understood that much. You're still insinuating that he bought his way in though - if not his family, where would the money have come from?
Saul Alinsky, maybe? The Democrat party? Rev. Wright? It could have come from a lot of places. And I'm not saying he bought his way in. But college admissions standards being what they are, who knows? Just as there was so much mystery about his birthplace and citizenship, there was a lot of hiding as to how he got where he got. Republicans are typically an open book about most of that stuff. Look what you knew about Dubya, and how you used it to criticize (not you-you, but you lefties in general). I love how it's ok for you to criticize the Right, but when we do it, it's racist. Which it's not. I never cared about his skin color, his birthright, his citizenship or any of that. That takes the eye off the real problems he caused.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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There are lots of ways to limit someone. You can call everything he says 'racist' in an attempt to shut him up. Here's an example in the news today: The president took funds from disaster relief to make more comfortable living spaces on the border, as a solution to what the Left has denounced a inhumane (even though Obama instituted it, and implemented it). Some weaker people would throw up their hands because 'damned if you do, damned if you don't. What the MSM is finding out is that Trump doesn't care what they say about him, because he knows what his heart is, and where it is.
I'm sure he doesn't care if they like what he says. But they don't give him the choice of being heard much. And when he denounces racism and the KKK, they just say "OK, but he doesn't mean it." As if they know his heart.
I don't believe that anyone is trying to "shut up" Trump. As you said, he seems to care very little about what people say about him. Reporting the facts of what someone says is simply that - reporting the facts. If it results in a negative response, then so be it. Also, I thought you believed that "racist" has a very specific definition. If so, why does calling something "inhumane" count as calling it "racist" in your eyes?

The reason why people say that Trump doesn't mean it when he denounces racism is because he typically turns around right after denouncing it and says something racist, walks back his denouncement, or institutes a racist policy. Talk is cheap.

From here, I'll let you figure it out. I wasn't trying to excuse Trump.
Uh huh.

Prejudice is different from racism, though racism is an extreme form of prejudice. We all have prejudice. I like Asian women better than Caucasian women. That's a prejudice. I generally don't like tattoo'd people. That's a prejudice. If I was in a position to hire, and chose an Asian woman just because she's Asian, that's racism.
Racism is the attribution of some characteristic to a person because of their race. For example, we used to think, as a culture, that blacks were better athletes. That's a form of racism. Denying people the right to a job or a home because of their race is racism.
One of the examples long ago was about Trump's use of employees at his casino, they said that he moved black dealers from the high rollers area. The fact is, Trump didn't fire them from their job. And they may have been black, but there may have been a different reason for moving them.
The example we were talking about here was Trump saying that a group of Native Americans should not be allowed to operate an "Indian gaming casino" because they did not "look like Indians" to him. That sounds like he was trying to deny them their jobs because of their race - in other words, racism by your own definition.

Saul Alinsky, maybe? The Democrat party? Rev. Wright? It could have come from a lot of places. And I'm not saying he bought his way in. But college admissions standards being what they are, who knows? Just as there was so much mystery about his birthplace and citizenship, there was a lot of hiding as to how he got where he got.
Right, spitballing. It could have also come from God, Abraham Lincoln, or the Republican Party. Or, more likely, his grades were good enough to allow him to transfer in. I'll remind you of Occam's Razor - when multiple explanations for something are presented, typically the simplest one is the correct one. Unless you have actual evidence that someone bribed Obama's way into Columbia, I'm content to stick with the simplest explanation. Your supposition requires some sort of long-running conspiracy theory.

Republicans are typically an open book about most of that stuff.
You mean like Trump has been an open book about his own academic records and tax returns?

Look what you knew about Dubya, and how you used it to criticize (not you-you, but you lefties in general).
I was in middle school when Bush was elected in 2000, but most of the criticism I remember of him came from his verbal gaffes (nukular, "Mission Accomplished!", etc), with a little bit directed at his avoidance of Vietnam via the National Guard. Overall, it tended to be pretty light-hearted. I certainly don't remember anyone hanging Bush in effigy (in the US, at least - he was pretty reviled in the Middle East), calling him a secret Muslim, or questioning his citizenship.

I love how it's ok for you to criticize the Right, but when we do it, it's racist. Which it's not. I never cared about his skin color, his birthright, his citizenship or any of that. That takes the eye off the real problems he caused.
I only call racist criticisms - like those questioning his citizenship - racist. And if you don't care about those things, why have we spent the past month arguing about them?
 
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Root of Jesse

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I don't believe that anyone is trying to "shut up" Trump. As you said, he seems to care very little about what people say about him. Reporting the facts of what someone says is simply that - reporting the facts. If it results in a negative response, then so be it. Also, I thought you believed that "racist" has a very specific definition. If so, why does calling something "inhumane" count as calling it "racist" in your eyes?
Whether he cares or not is immaterial. The fact is they mischaracterize what he said, or attribute bad to it.
The reason why people say that Trump doesn't mean it when he denounces racism is because he typically turns around right after denouncing it and says something racist, walks back his denouncement, or institutes a racist policy. Talk is cheap.
And his actions speak louder than his words.
Uh huh.


The example we were talking about here was Trump saying that a group of Native Americans should not be allowed to operate an "Indian gaming casino" because they did not "look like Indians" to him. That sounds like he was trying to deny them their jobs because of their race - in other words, racism by your own definition.
So you think all Native Americans can work only in casinos?
Right, spitballing. It could have also come from God, Abraham Lincoln, or the Republican Party. Or, more likely, his grades were good enough to allow him to transfer in. I'll remind you of Occam's Razor - when multiple explanations for something are presented, typically the simplest one is the correct one. Unless you have actual evidence that someone bribed Obama's way into Columbia, I'm content to stick with the simplest explanation. Your supposition requires some sort of long-running conspiracy theory.


You mean like Trump has been an open book about his own academic records and tax returns?


I was in middle school when Bush was elected in 2000, but most of the criticism I remember of him came from his verbal gaffes (nukular, "Mission Accomplished!", etc), with a little bit directed at his avoidance of Vietnam via the National Guard. Overall, it tended to be pretty light-hearted. I certainly don't remember anyone hanging Bush in effigy (in the US, at least - he was pretty reviled in the Middle East), calling him a secret Muslim, or questioning his citizenship.


I only call racist criticisms - like those questioning his citizenship - racist. And if you don't care about those things, why have we spent the past month arguing about them?
That was a question of citizenship, not race.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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And his actions speak louder than his words.
They do, indeed.

So you think all Native Americans can work only in casinos?
So's Law strikes again!

These particular Native Americans were already operating a (very profitable) casino. Trump objected to it on the grounds that they "didn't look like Indians." He wished to deprive them of their livelihood because of their race.

That was a question of citizenship, not race.
Would anyone have questioned his citizenship if he were white? Ted Cruz was actually born in another country (in Canada to two US citizens, so yes, he's a citizen), and yet I never heard anyone question his citizenship.
 
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tulc

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uhmmm...quick question: in the 48 hours that someone counted were those individual cases of someone calling what was said racist or were they the same shows on repeat and each time the same segments came on did they count those as separate cases? :scratch:
tulc(wonders about things like that) :sorry:
 
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You know I've given up on the race thing. Trump isn't a racist, but the left thinks he is. He can act stupid, be a bufoon, say ignorant things, but he's not a racist. But it doesn't matter what I say, the left thinks he is. So, I just shrug my shoulders anymore. What's the point in arguing with people who see racism in everything.
 
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tulc

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You know I've given up on the race thing. Trump isn't a racist, but the left thinks he is. He can act stupid, be a bufoon, say ignorant things, but he's not a racist. But it doesn't matter what I say, the left thinks he is. So, I just shrug my shoulders anymore. What's the point in arguing with people who see racism in everything.
...or he is. But who wants to admit that they support someone that's a racist? :sorry:
tulc(just a thought) :wave:
 
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rjs330

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...or he is. But who wants to admit that they support someone that's a racist? :sorry:
tulc(just a thought) :wave:
He's not. He also grabbed women inappropriately. A LOT of us didn't support him and truly wish we had and have another option. But we don't. So there it is. But he's not a racist.
 
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tulc

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(snip) A LOT of us didn't support him and truly wish we had and have another option. But we don't. (snip)
uhmmm...unless someone is holding a gun on you, you do have other options. You've simply decided supporting a d-list, serial adulterer, porn star paying, reality tv show host, mocker of handicapped reporters stuff is...regrettable, but not a deal breaker, his being a racist though? That's not something I want to be seen supporting. :sorry:
tulc(is sorry rjs330 feels he doesn't have other options) :wave:
 
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Root of Jesse

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They do, indeed.
And his actions, at least in the recent past, have shown he's either not a racist or he's reformed. Thanks for agreeing.
So's Law strikes again!

These particular Native Americans were already operating a (very profitable) casino. Trump objected to it on the grounds that they "didn't look like Indians." He wished to deprive them of their livelihood because of their race.
There was an objection to Indian casinos a long time ago, mostly by Nevada and Atlantic City, because they wanted to hog all the casino action. Business. Nothing to do with whether Native Americans were 'really' Native Americans. He was making an excuse. I don't go to Native American casinos because I don't think any one group should be allowed to do something that nobody else can. And honestly, most Native Americans are dark skinned, so it follows, what he said. It's not racism.
Would anyone have questioned his citizenship if he were white? Ted Cruz was actually born in another country (in Canada to two US citizens, so yes, he's a citizen), and yet I never heard anyone question his citizenship.
Well, I don't know. He's not 'white'. The fact is, there wasn't much documentation about his birth details (just like there's not much documentation about his college days, and it really had nothing to do with his race. It had to do with where he was born. But I don't even believe it was a serious question. The fact is, all presidential candidates, especially in the last 25 years, have come under undue scrutiny. Remember Dubya's lack of military background and supposed DUI and cocaine use? Hmmm? Actually, I thought Clinton came under undue scrutiny. In fact, I think it's impossible, or nearly so, to get a decent person into the White House, just like it's impossible to get good people into Cabinet positions-too much digging into 50 years ago stuff that is irrelevant today.
 
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Root of Jesse

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uhmmm...unless someone is holding a gun on you, you do have other options. You've simply decided supporting a d-list, serial adulterer, porn star paying, reality tv show host, mocker of handicapped reporters stuff is...regrettable, but not a deal breaker, his being a racist though? That's not something I want to be seen supporting. :sorry:
tulc(is sorry rjs330 feels he doesn't have other options) :wave:
No, honestly, we don't. Why? Because what the left says and wants to do with this country is abhorrent to us-more so than anything Trump might do.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I've heard the MSM has used the term hurricane 3,000s in the last 3 days.

#brainwash.
You must really have so little to do...
 
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Root of Jesse

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...or he is. But who wants to admit that they support someone that's a racist? :sorry:
tulc(just a thought) :wave:
Most real racists are proud of it.
 
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tulc

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Most real racists are proud of it.
Some are, some people though? If their candidate happens to be a racist it's not a deal breaker for them. Those people will fight, twist and excuse anything and everything just so they can A) keep supporting the candidate and B) pretend "my candidate isn't like that!". :sigh:
tulc(just a thought) :wave:
 
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RocksInMyHead

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And his actions, at least in the recent past, have shown he's either not a racist or he's reformed.
I disagree. What recent actions of his would you say indicate this?

There was an objection to Indian casinos a long time ago, mostly by Nevada and Atlantic City, because they wanted to hog all the casino action. Business. Nothing to do with whether Native Americans were 'really' Native Americans. He was making an excuse.
Just a coincidence then that his excuse relied on race, rather than any legitimate business reason. Riiight.

And honestly, most Native Americans are dark skinned, so it follows, what he said. It's not racism.
It may "follow," but using it as a justification for discrimination is racism.

Well, I don't know. He's not 'white'. The fact is, there wasn't much documentation about his birth details (just like there's not much documentation about his college days, and it really had nothing to do with his race. It had to do with where he was born. The fact is, all presidential candidates, especially in the last 25 years, have come under undue scrutiny. Remember Dubya's lack of military background and supposed DUI and cocaine use? Hmmm?
Couple of things here:

1. There was exactly as much documentation of his birth details as most of the US population.

2. The truth of the matter is that where one is born has very little bearing on one's character. It's one thing to talk about a person lying about their military service or utilizing fraud to avoid going to war, or using illegal drugs, and an entirely different matter to worry about where a baby happened to pop out of the womb. Obama spent most of his childhood (apart from the four years he lived in Indonesia) in Hawaii and, by all appearances, was raised as an American citizen. Questions of where he was born are nothing more than a flimsy excuse to argue that he was ineligible for office - made easier by his name and the color of his skin.

But I don't even believe it was a serious question.
Some people definitely took it seriously.
 
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