USA= Babylon

[angelfightfire]

Quite a few have posted that the US is Babylon in Bible prophesy. It looks to me like this is probably true. First, What do you think? Second, , What do you think we that live here should do?

That is an accusation, but there is no evidence supporting it, except maybe that America happens to be the strongest and most powerful nation right now.

A lot of people hate America today. Of all the nations of the world. They hate America and Israel. In fact, you could say - with some degree of assurance - that the majority of the world hates these two countries. And, they are united in this.

But, the world is evil. So, why do they hate these two nations?

Regardless, I stay with the basic Protestant and I think even Catholic definition, that Babylon is represented by Rome "the City of Seven Hills", which was an old and popular title for Rome. (Some mistakenly believe Rome is chosen simply because she has seven hills. It was a popular title for Rome at the time.)

I will not go into how the rest of the Prophecy fits there, as there are countless papers out there. I will point out that there is a lot of other evidence which would contradict America being "Babylon" of Revelation, such as the statute in Daniel, and so forth.

 

[interpreter]

Does Washington DC sit on seven hills???

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Why do you think the seven mountains are literal when the image being seen is symbolic?

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Apparently you've never been to Europe. Or Asia. Or Africa. Or South America. Our culture of moral abandon? By and large Americans look like prudes and wowsers compared to the stuff that's winked or just outright accepted in other countries.

So then the sin of America is ok? It's shameful when the only way to defend a place is to say it isn't quite as bad as the rest. It may instill a false sense of righteous superiority.

 

[interpreter]

Why do you think the seven mountains are literal when the image being seen is symbolic?

Oh. the seven hills are quite literal as well as being a symbol of Rome if that's what you mean. Many cities sit on 7 hills, besides Rome. Constantinople sits on 7 hills and was known as 2nd Rome. Moscow is famous for sitting on 7 hills and many (5) seas, and was known as 3rd Rome after Constantinople (2nd Rome) fell in 1453.

And I am serious, how many hills does Washington, DC. have?
Keep in mind that the side of the Potomac that is now in Arlington, VA. (since the civil war) was in the original Wash. DC plat.

Barry

 

[Wolfman66]

Page 5 rules. I love the posts here.
from Angel
A lot of people hate America today. Of all the nations of the world. They hate America and Israel. In fact, you could say - with some degree of assurance - that the majority of the world hates these two countries. And, they are united in this.
My comment: you better believe they are united. I couldnt agree more.
from interpreter
Does Washington DC sit on seven hills???
Answer: Good guestion but I dont have that answer. Interesting point to research for me. Thanks for bringing it up.
From Kingdom Come
So then the sin of America is ok? It's shameful when the only way to defend a place is to say it isn't quite as bad as the rest. It may instill a false sense of righteous superiority
Comment: I have been looking for a way to say this very thing but you said it best. I think your statement is vital in the ongoing debate about America's responsibility to God.
And again from interpreter
Oh. the seven hills are quite literal as well as being a symbol of Rome if that's what you mean. Many cities sit on 7 hills, besides Rome. Constantinople sits on 7 hills and was known as 2nd Rome. Moscow is famous for sitting on 7 hills and many (5) seas, and was known as 3rd Rome after Constantinople (2nd Rome) fell in 1453.
This is classic information interpreter. I considered myself a student of history until today. I should have known this. Good data for discussion.
Thanks everyone.

 

[interpreter]

Wolfman66

Unfortunately, i was mostly asleep in my history classes. But i seem to recall that Washington DC was laid out, at least street wise, in circular streets around 7 "hills" or focal points, with Capitol hill being the prominent one. I could be wrong. I visited Washington DC once but was not paying enough attention. But it seems to me that many new capitals throughout history copied Rome deliberately, as if to instantly gain some prestige, and in complete disregard to the Revelation.

I hope you can research this and get back to us.

Barry

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Well here is my issue with the literal 7 hills interpretation.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Now there are some translations which interpret this as seven hills rather than seven mountains but many use mountains. The significance of the actual word [font=&quot]ὄρος [/font]is in the meaning and the way it’s used. It appears to derive from the word [font=&quot]ὄρω [/font]which is to rise, as in a mountain rising above the plains. The word of course can be and is translated as hill or mount (mountain). This is a symbol of dominion or of a power base rising from among the people.



It is important that we establish what is being spoken about here. We know the 7 heads being spoken about are the seven heads of the beast. These 7 heads are the same 7 heads from the beasts of Daniel. This beast of Revelation is the coming together of the 4 beasts of Daniel. The 4 beasts of Daniel represent world powers that will rise from among the people and be present at the time of the end.

Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

The sea can be symbolic of people and the four beasts, symbolic of governments rising among the people.

Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.



Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Here are 2 of the beasts and 2 of the heads.

Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Here is the third beast which has 4 heads.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Here is the fourth and final beast and with it we have a total of 4 beasts with a total of 7 heads. This fourth beast also has upon it the 10 horns. Now John describes all of these beasts as one.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.



Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

This is the beast of Revelation which has in it all the beasts of Daniel. The symbolism here is of unity but still with separate heads or governments. It is important to remember this when looking at Scripture concerning the 7 heads of the beast. Remember one of the heads is wounded as though unto death. You do not wound a literal mountain or hill. You can however wound a government to the point of bankruptcy, collapse and anarchy and miraculously have a stronger government rise in its place. Now many people interpret this as a literal wound to a man, the man of sin. However in keeping with the context of what is being written we know that the 7 heads are governments so this interpretation doesn’t really make sense. Also men recover from deadly wounds all the time so this is not necessarily a “miracle” that would surprise anyone in this day and age.



Now this eighth world power, it would seem the preeminent power of its time, is shown to us in Revelation Chapter 17. Now this eighth power is described as a woman riding the beast, a symbol of her dominion over the nations of the world at the time of the end. How do we know she is a nation? The angel reveals who the woman riding the beast is in verse 18.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Thus the angel reveals that she is that great city or nation which exercises great dominion over the kings and nations of the earth at the time of the end. She is not the beast as she will be destroyed by the 10 kings which give allegiance to the beast. It is important to understand the symbolism of the beast as a man, a spirit and an attempt at the unification of world powers.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.



Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

These ten horns, which shall rise to power in the fourth and final beast kingdom of Daniel, which is one of the kingdoms that unites with the other three beast kingdoms to form the 7 headed beast of Revelation, are the ones who God will allow to destroy the woman. These are the ones who will give their authority to the beast and will make war with Christ at His return.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.



Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.



Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Again the symbolism of the woman riding the 7 headed beast, of her sitting upon the 7 mountains is used to demonstrate her authority and dominion over the key governmental powers and nations of the end. Of course her dominion does not come without a price and she will be hated and she will be destroyed. This topic can get much deeper and go much further. However I think this covers the issue of the 7 mountains or 7 “hills”.

 

[Covenant Heart]

Quite a few have posted that the US is Babylon in Bible prophesy. It looks to me like this is probably true. First, What do you think? Second, , What do you think we that live here should do?

And no.

Caesar promised the world freedom, liberty, prosperity, happiness, blessedness, justice, security, victory and (of course) the Pax Romana (peace of Rome)! It’s hard to miss the relevance of these claims to our own time, isn’t it. But in fact however, the empire was maintained by brutal political/military oppression that enforced injustice and exploitation. That was the means of securing wealth and blessedness within imperial borders.

John’s vision report is rooted firmly in the late first century imperial province of Asia. His readers were familiar with all his symbolism and literary allusions. But his message was not bound to their time. Is the United States Babylon? Our answer is, “the cap of Babylon/Rome is worn by whomever it fits.” This has a profoundly important corollary.

In any time, place or form that “Caesar” presses these claims, Christians answer. They expose that lie by laying the claims of God’s kingdom directly laying against Caesar in witness to Christ, the true mediator of all blessedness. Willingness to do this even at the price of martyrdom John calls a faithful witness. But to seek this blessedness by trusting in or serving Caesar is to bear his impression on the head or hand respectively.

That part of the confessing church which calls the peoples to support Caesar’s promise (in the name of patriotism, loyalty, etc.), does the false prophets’ work in any time or place. John so structures his message that between Christ and Caesar, there is no compromise.

Wherever Caesar makes such promises (above) as God alone provides, Christians stand in direct negation of those claims. Where discretionary wars are launched to enforce the hegemony on which the harlot’s wealth is based, Christians expose those deeds as the works of the beast, and denounce those wars in the name of Jesus Christ. They do this whether Caesar calls himself Bush or Chavez, Sharon or Saddam, Amin or bin Laden.

There’s more. While John’s sources clearly rely heavily upon the prophets (as Daniel), the Exodus also forms an important part of the inter-textual background. In judgment on evil power, in plagues are modeled after those of Egypt, in the allusion to the blood of the Passover Lamb, in throne visions (lightening/thunder, recollecting Sinai), in the vision of the saints having crossed a heavenly Red Sea, and in singing version of Moses’ song, the role of the Exodus (the central OT salvation event, equivalent to NT resurrection]) is unmistakable. John clearly correlates the Exodus to the eschatological Exodus (Re 18:4).

The Re 11 witnesses: Dressed in sackcloth (garb associated with repentance), they have authority to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish. It is no secret that some see the two witnesses as symbolizing the church in her two-fold ministry of calling nations to repent and trust in God, while calling the judgments of the Almighty upon nations that don‘t. This reading is dismissed as the two witnesses are claimed to be specific individuals. But as John contextualized this for his time, let’s do the same.

It was generally acknowledged that September 11, 2001 was a “wake-up” call. Prayers were offered, hearts were humbled. But soon the beast raised its head; we are involved in a discretionary war that was continually set against September 11, 2001. But as John said, they refused to repent or give God glory--even when chafing under his plagues. No longer was 9-11 a warning from God. It was a call to arms. What if Katrina is God’s continuing judgment upon our refusal to repent? Moreover, what if we’re supposed to ask for this?

While not recreating the Exodus, this material plus the witnesses put us in Moses’ role of calling down God’s judgments until we repent of Caesar’s political/military enforcement of injustice and exploitation as the path to liberty, prosperity, happiness, security and peace. Do we ask God to send the California quake? Do we ask God to wash Cleveland with Lake Ontario? Do we ask God to send fires through Colorado? No. And since God gave the witnesses authority to strike the earth with plagues, why don’t we? That’s easy!

That is too much “literalism” for us to bear.

We know that if the church across the nation prays this way, the beast will waste our blood just as John says in Re 11:7. Yet John’s point is that the faithful witness does so anyway--even to the point of death. And despising God’s judgments takes our side with Pharoah/Caesar against Moses/Christ. John makes the point that there is no compromise.

We push this theology into the future so that we won’t have to confront Pharoah/Caesar. We would be very content to prattle about these things till doomsday, so long as we don’t have practice what John describes. We refuse to consider this because we know it means martyrdom--yes, even in the United States. We know that if we did this, the rage of the beast would rise against us to destroy us. But faithful witnesses say, “let it come.”

This issue will be faced. There are some who use John’s theology as the narrative that is taught to their children. This is taught in seminary. A generation of preachers is being raised up that will preach this across the land. We won’t have peace with Caesar because peace with Caesar betrays Christ. Since the church pushes the theology of the Revelation into the future, we will force it to be obedient to that theology or to forsake Christ. Some of us are ready to preach such messages and to pray for such judgments as will torture the nation until it repents or slays the saints (Re 11:10). If the church will not acknowledge or face the issues of power, authority, justice, holiness and salvation as John relates them to the beast, we will force the issue by enraging the beast against the whole church of God.

In any time, place or form, the issue if Christ or Caesar. In any time, place or form, the issue is repentance or we pray for God’s judgments. Choose life.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[Psalms34]

Apparently you've never been to Europe. Or Asia. Or Africa. Or South America. Our culture of moral abandon? By and large Americans look like prudes and wowsers compared to the stuff that's winked or just outright accepted in other countries.

Oh that's just so true What comes to mind at the moment is the booming child sex slave business in some countries in this world. Is it wrong to give thanks to God for being born in a country that does not tolerate such a dreadful thing? I think people that try to force the mystery Babylon thing as representing the US only shows their utter ignorance concerning world affairs. We who live here should cry out with thanks to God each and every day for the fact that we live here in this great Country and plead for its reform and preservation.

 

[Harlan Norris]

And no.

Caesar promised the world freedom, liberty, prosperity, happiness, blessedness, justice, security, victory and (of course) the Pax Romana (peace of Rome)! It’s hard to miss the relevance of these claims to our own time, isn’t it. But in fact however, the empire was maintained by brutal political/military oppression that enforced injustice and exploitation. That was the means of securing wealth and blessedness within imperial borders.

John’s vision report is rooted firmly in the late first century imperial province of Asia. His readers were familiar with all his symbolism and literary allusions. But his message was not bound to their time. Is the United States Babylon? Our answer is, “the cap of Babylon/Rome is worn by whomever it fits.” This has a profoundly important corollary.

In any time, place or form that “Caesar” presses these claims, Christians answer. They expose that lie by laying the claims of God’s kingdom directly laying against Caesar in witness to Christ, the true mediator of all blessedness. Willingness to do this even at the price of martyrdom John calls a faithful witness. But to seek this blessedness by trusting in or serving Caesar is to bear his impression on the head or hand respectively.

That part of the confessing church which calls the peoples to support Caesar’s promise (in the name of patriotism, loyalty, etc.), does the false prophets’ work in any time or place. John so structures his message that between Christ and Caesar, there is no compromise.

Wherever Caesar makes such promises (above) as God alone provides, Christians stand in direct negation of those claims. Where discretionary wars are launched to enforce the hegemony on which the harlot’s wealth is based, Christians expose those deeds as the works of the beast, and denounce those wars in the name of Jesus Christ. They do this whether Caesar calls himself Bush or Chavez, Sharon or Saddam, Amin or bin Laden.

There’s more. While John’s sources clearly rely heavily upon the prophets (as Daniel), the Exodus also forms an important part of the inter-textual background. In judgment on evil power, in plagues are modeled after those of Egypt, in the allusion to the blood of the Passover Lamb, in throne visions (lightening/thunder, recollecting Sinai), in the vision of the saints having crossed a heavenly Red Sea, and in singing version of Moses’ song, the role of the Exodus (the central OT salvation event, equivalent to NT resurrection]) is unmistakable. John clearly correlates the Exodus to the eschatological Exodus (Re 18:4).

The Re 11 witnesses: Dressed in sackcloth (garb associated with repentance), they have authority to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish. It is no secret that some see the two witnesses as symbolizing the church in her two-fold ministry of calling nations to repent and trust in God, while calling the judgments of the Almighty upon nations that don‘t. This reading is dismissed as the two witnesses are claimed to be specific individuals. But as John contextualized this for his time, let’s do the same.

It was generally acknowledged that September 11, 2001 was a “wake-up” call. Prayers were offered, hearts were humbled. But soon the beast raised its head; we are involved in a discretionary war that was continually set against September 11, 2001. But as John said, they refused to repent or give God glory--even when chafing under his plagues. No longer was 9-11 a warning from God. It was a call to arms. What if Katrina is God’s continuing judgment upon our refusal to repent? Moreover, what if we’re supposed to ask for this?

While not recreating the Exodus, this material plus the witnesses put us in Moses’ role of calling down God’s judgments until we repent of Caesar’s political/military enforcement of injustice and exploitation as the path to liberty, prosperity, happiness, security and peace. Do we ask God to send the California quake? Do we ask God to wash Cleveland with Lake Ontario? Do we ask God to send fires through Colorado? No. And since God gave the witnesses authority to strike the earth with plagues, why don’t we? That’s easy!

That is too much “literalism” for us to bear.

We know that if the church across the nation prays this way, the beast will waste our blood just as John says in Re 11:7. Yet John’s point is that the faithful witness does so anyway--even to the point of death. And despising God’s judgments takes our side with Pharoah/Caesar against Moses/Christ. John makes the point that there is no compromise.

We push this theology into the future so that we won’t have to confront Pharoah/Caesar. We would be very content to prattle about these things till doomsday, so long as we don’t have practice what John describes. We refuse to consider this because we know it means martyrdom--yes, even in the United States. We know that if we did this, the rage of the beast would rise against us to destroy us. But faithful witnesses say, “let it come.”

This issue will be faced. There are some who use John’s theology as the narrative that is taught to their children. This is taught in seminary. A generation of preachers is being raised up that will preach this across the land. We won’t have peace with Caesar because peace with Caesar betrays Christ. Since the church pushes the theology of the Revelation into the future, we will force it to be obedient to that theology or to forsake Christ. Some of us are ready to preach such messages and to pray for such judgments as will torture the nation until it repents or slays the saints (Re 11:10). If the church will not acknowledge or face the issues of power, authority, justice, holiness and salvation as John relates them to the beast, we will force the issue by enraging the beast against the whole church of God.

In any time, place or form, the issue if Christ or Caesar. In any time, place or form, the issue is repentance or we pray for God’s judgments. Choose life.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

Well, there certainly seems to be a lot of parity between the Christian faith and certain political ideals. This caused me to leave the first church I attended. The one I'm In now is similar, but I'm not being pressured, so for now i'll stay. Frankly, I can't find a church that does not do this. It's a sad situation in my opinion. It's like the entire nation has abandoned the faith for the sake of political gain. Very roman.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[interpreter]

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m15847&l=i&size=1&hd=0

Check out the last few lines if you don't take the time to read the whole article.

Good article about Iraq, the site of the original Babylon. But what has it to do with the subject: USA = Babylon?

 

[Covenant Heart]

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m15847&l=i&size=1&hd=0

Check out the last few lines if you don't take the time to read the whole article.

Reading the opening line about the "plot to divide Iraq," one recalls that before Bush' phony war was initiated, the Washington imperial court was warned of one likelihood this ill-conceived adventure could be the division of Iraq into three states with some being more extreme than Iraq. Should have listened! Too late now!! Now we face another likelihood--that the resistance expresses the will of the new, emerging Iraq. If you don't like the resistance, end the occupation and bring all the troops home now.

The concluding call "stand before this ugly plot" is the Arab way of saying, "we will never give in to terrorism." And we hear that all the time.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[Covenant Heart]

Well, there certainly seems to be a lot of parity between the Christian faith and certain political ideals. This caused me to leave the first church I attended. The one I'm In now is similar, but I'm not being pressured, so for now i'll stay. Frankly, I can't find a church that does not do this. It's a sad situation in my opinion. It's like the entire nation has abandoned the faith for the sake of political gain. Very roman.

Hi Harlan Norris!

John displays a clear parody between the Caesar's beastly kingdom, and the eschatological New Jerusalem. Later, I try to post a few points of comparison. You are correct to see the present situation as an act of great apostasy. In the Revelation, John creates and structures a symbolic world in such a way that compromise with this system of earthly power, authority, ideology, oppression, injustice, etc. becomes impossible for God's people.

We bear the mark of God's name on our heads; in our faith tradition, that sounds much like baptism. The early church was understood that baptism implied a readiness to accept martyrdom. On the other hand, to bear the impression of Caesar on the head or hand was to be separated from God. The Christ/Caesar (God-and-country) line proposes an alliance with hell. This meant that people had to decide between Christ and Caesar.

We think that by pushing the theology of the Revelation into the future, we can evade martyrdom as the price of faithful witness to Christ now. Not so! Either we will negate the claims of Caesar (whatever his name), or we will be unfaithful to God. As you note, the church presently refuses to face this (in some parts of the world, at least). But even if the church refuses the discipline of Christ (see the messages to the churches in Asia!), we are not without recourse.

The church will obey the theology of the Revelation. And if not, we will so preach and call on the nation such plagues as God Almighty can send. We will do this to invoke Caesar's beastly wrath until he rises to smite the church. In effect, this places the disobedient part of the church under ecclesiastical discipline. This will work a great division. In the end, believers will repent and show the mark of God's Spirit, or they will bear the resemblance of the beast.

The time has come for closure on debate on eschatological scenarios. The time has come to implement the theology of the Revelation in life. It is Christ or Caesar. Choose well.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[OhhJim]

So then the sin of America is ok? It's shameful when the only way to defend a place is to say it isn't quite as bad as the rest. It may instill a false sense of righteous superiority.

Is it possible that he was clarifying the point, without defending the (im)morality of the USA? How does one state the truth without being accused of being defensive?

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Is it possible that he was clarifying the point, without defending the (im)morality of the USA? How does one state the truth without being accused of being defensive?

I understand what you are saying however it seems to me that some people are trying to defend the US by saying “our sin isn’t really that bad. Just look at all these other people who sin much worse than we do.” It’s not a very good defense in my opinion. Does the sinner who sins less become a saint simply because there is someone who sins more? No, sin does not only reside in the US however there is much wickedness in the US. There is a lot that goes on with the blessing, permission and protection of the government. Does anyone honestly believe that judgment will pass over any nation or people who does not repent and turn away from their sin?

 

[OhhJim]

I understand what you are saying however it seems to me that some people are trying to defend the US by saying “our sin isn’t really that bad. Just look at all these other people who sin much worse than we do.” It’s not a very good defense in my opinion. Does the sinner who sins less become a saint simply because there is someone who sins more? No, sin does not only reside in the US however there is much wickedness in the US. There is a lot that goes on with the blessing, permission and protection of the government. Does anyone honestly believe that judgment will pass over any nation or people who does not repent and turn away from their sin?

I think his point (and I agree with it) is that the USA is better than some, and worse than others. I don't believe that judgement will pass over the USA, nor do I believe that God will judge us more harshly.

The whole point of this thread is to suggest that the USA is Babylon, and therefore will be judged more harshly than other countries. I believe that the USA is simply another country, when it comes to God's judgement. We do some good things, and some bad.

 

[Covenant Heart]

I think his point (and I agree with it) is that the USA is better than some, and worse than others. I don't believe that judgement will pass over the USA, nor do I believe that God will judge us more harshly.

The whole point of this thread is to suggest that the USA is Babylon, and therefore will be judged more harshly than other countries. I believe that the USA is simply another country, when it comes to God's judgement. We do some good things, and some bad.

If we do the works of Babylon, we share in the judgment of Babylon.

"Come out of her, my people, so that you do not take part in her sins, and so that you do not share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her as she herself has rendered, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double draught for her in the cup she mixed. As she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, so give her a like measure of torment and grief" (Re 18:4-7).

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[salemer]

i believe that the usa and the british are God's covenant people Israel. Manasseh to become a great nation and ephraim to be a company of nations genesis 35:10-11 and gen 48 and 49:20. see my website at www.british-israel.ca