USA= Babylon

[Brain Damage]

Quite a few have posted that the US is Babylon in Bible prophesy. It looks to me like this is probably true. First, What do you think? Second, , What do you think we that live here should do?

God tells us exactly where Satans seat of authority will be , and it's not in America.

Isaiah 14:12 - How you are fallen from heaven, Heylel, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit on the mountain of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like Ha`Elyon.

 

[Harlan Norris]

Well, for some reason I missed the Jerusalem connection. It definatly is there. The Jews there are instructed to leave immediatly, when they see the abomination of desolation. Presumably because the city will be judged. I suppose this could also clear the way for New Jerusalem. Hmmmm. Maybe There needs to be a thread of where is the united states in prophesy. It seems kind of strange that the US doesn't merit any obvious reference.

 

[ikester]

in my opinion....I don't see Jerusalem as the end times Babylon.....the ten kings..along with beast commit to the destruction of Babylon...yet at Armaggeddon the whole world comes down on Jerusalem...

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I have wondered if America is but have been refuted on that several times. Currently I dont know what to believe. Many say it is the Catholic Church but again I dont know.
And not knowing really really bugs me.

I think it's the whole system of rebellion against God powered by Satan -in whatever age since the Garden, when 'unjustness' -iniquity, was found in the 'covering Cherub' -Satan.
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

It's the mystery of iniquity that has worked through the ages of this earth to deceive mankind.
"In her is found the blood of all...slain on earth".

And yes, God does tell us that the seat of authority of mystery Babylon in the last seven years will be in Babylon -Iraq, the land of 'shinar'.

Vision of the Woman in a Basket
5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, "Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth."
6 So I asked, "What is it?" And he said, "It is a *basket that is going forth."
He also said, "This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket"; 8 then he said, "This is Wickedness!" And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead *cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, "Where are they carrying the basket?"
11 And he said to me, "To build a house for it in the land of *Shinar; when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base."

wickedness in that passage is 'rish`ah' from the word 'resha`', that is also translated... AV - iniquity 1;

 

[Jipsah]

Quite a few have posted that the US is Babylon in Bible prophesy. It looks to me like this is probably true. First, What do you think?

Personally I think it's baloney.

Second, , What do you think we that live here should do?

Pray, worship God, bring up your children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, live, as much as is within our power, godly lives, keep our faith in the Lord firm, and try not to pay too much attention to people who come up with new and novel "meanings" to Scripture that they've made up out of whole cloth.

 

[Jipsah]

weve spread our culture of moral abandon, through the world. Interesting.

Apparently you've never been to Europe. Or Asia. Or Africa. Or South America. Our culture of moral abandon? By and large Americans look like prudes and wowsers compared to the stuff that's winked or just outright accepted in other countries.

 

[ross3421]

Babylon Rev. 17 = Jerusalem

Much debate on which city is Babylon of Rev. 17; New York, Babylon (Iraq), Rome and so on....

Question, if you were claiming to be the return of the Messiah where would you set up camp?

Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The harlot

The bible only has spoken of one such city as a harlot, Jerusalem.

Chapters which relate Jerusalem to being a harlot.

Isaiah chapter 1
Jeremiah chapter 3
Ezekiel chapter 16
Hosea chapter 4

Rev. 17:16 - We see lovers will strip her, this is seen happening to Jerusalem in EZ 16:37.

Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for “MY PEOPLE” to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.

Rev. 18:6 – This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This “double” punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.

Rev. 18:7 - She denies that she is a harlot and a widow, Jerusalem is described as a widow in Lam 1:1.

Rev. 18:22, 23 – We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.

Babylon is the harlot of the REAL New Jerusalem seen coming from Heaven two chapters later in chapter 21. History always seems to repeat......


In Christ, Mark.

 

[constant]

I am of the opinion that American may be the "new" Babylon. I base this on the scripture, which I don't have right in front of me, that refers to sailors and merchants of the world crying out, once Babylon is destroyed, because Babylon was their primary purchaser of goods and services (I'm using current jargan). Is their another economy that so many other countries depend on; other than the USA? And while I don't like to think about, I do think that every kind of sin can be found here. We have those who would stretch the right of speech so thin that it becomes transparent to thank for that.
One previous writer brings up a good point: What are we to do? Do we leave? And if so, where? Every type of sin may be found here, but the USA is one of the few countries that openly accepts Christianity or religion for that matter. I recently read a poll that claimed that only 17% of those living in Europe considered themselves Christian and reguarly practiced their faith. In Canada it is no longer legal to publicly wear religious refrences or display religious statues. In China they kill/inprison Christians. Russia, under their current leader, is slipping back into communism; an environment that any religion has a hard time growing in.

It should be painfully obvious that much of the world has indulged in our own desires, turned our back on the true god, and have set a perfect stage for the coming of the Anti Christ.

I suppose another possible alternative could be China. Many depend on their economy and they do have the blood of saints on their hands, however many think China plays a major role in the battle of Armagedon, and could not do so if they are destroyed.

Let me present a new possibility. What if we are talking about a single city. It seems many, including myself, have made reference to the entire USA as "Babylon". What if it is only a prominent city in America?

 

[ross3421]

I am of the opinion that American may be the "new" Babylon. I base this on the scripture, which I don't have right in front of me, that refers to sailors and merchants of the world crying out, once Babylon is destroyed, because Babylon was their primary purchaser of goods and services (I'm using current jargan).

You are refering to Rev. 18:15,16.

When does destruction come........ Be your plight niether in winter nor the sabbath.

These merchants have come to worship the king on the sabbath day. Notice that they are off thier ships STANDING afar and casting dust upon thier heads.

Will the AC claiming to be Christ set up his city in the USA ? Maybe the Mormans believe this since they believe he returns in Missouri.

Let me present a new possibility. What if we are talking about a single city. It seems many, including myself, have made reference to the entire USA as "Babylon". What if it is only a prominent city in America?

It is a single city......read my previous post.


In Christ, Mark.

 

[Wolfman66]

Constant:
When I read the references in The Revelation, I also thought immediately of America. The description seemed to fit. However, I wont say that America is Babylon. I have heard valid and Scriptural arguments that discredit the America theory.
Dont get discouraged. I can tell that you - like myself - have been thinking on this subject a while. In fact, if things continue, I have a feeling others will be also thinking more and more on the topic of eschatology.
It is frustrating I know. I am there with you seeking truth. Dont give up on studying and rightly dividing God's Word. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. Also I encourage you to keep in mind that God also has a way to keep us ignorant (II Thess 2:11) but the good part is that God also has a way to make up smart (Luke 24:45). I hope soon it is God's will to open our eyes as He did to those in Luke 24:45.

 

[Brain Damage]

Babylon Rev. 17 = Jerusalem

Much debate on which city is Babylon of Rev. 17; New York, Babylon (Iraq), Rome and so on....

Question, if you were claiming to be the return of the Messiah where would you set up camp?

Or even the first coming of Messiah as muslims and orthodox jews believe , then i guess there would be only one place ( city ) on the entire planet to which i would have to show up in and set up camp .

Christians , muslims and orthodox jews all believe their messiah must show up in Jerusalem and establish the kingdom of God .

Now if i were Satan i would take advantage of this situation , and once my kingdom is established i would demand that the nations should bring their glory into it . Lots of goodies for me and my friends.....

But of course God wouldn't like this very much , me using his ID card and stuff , and would probably send in a couple of prophets to sort me out.

 

[Wolfman66]

I keep waiting to see a chart on here and Ross Perot with a pointer stick trying to explain his theory of the end times.

 

[NumberOneSon]

Apparently you've never been to Europe. Or Asia. Or Africa. Or South America. Our culture of moral abandon? By and large Americans look like prudes and wowsers compared to the stuff that's winked or just outright accepted in other countries.

So true, Jipsah !! I've expressed this very thing numerous times in the past on this forum, but with no avail. No one seems to care; they just want to believe America is the epitomy of moral corruption, and that's that.

I'm reminded of when I was in Malta for a missions conference a few years back. I was in my hotel room and decided to check out what was on European TV. I was watching a German channel when the show cut to commercials, and an advertisement came on. I don't remember whether the product was soda or toothpaste, but I was stunned to see that the women showing off the product were completely nude. This wasn't some Pay-Per-View sleazy cable channel...it was normal TV broadcasting.

It just amazes that some people were up in arms and decried Janet Jackson's millisecond wardrobe malfunction as evidence of America's bid as the new Sodom and Gommorrah, and yet Germany can openly sell it's products on local channels using full frontal nudity, the kind of stuff that American's would NEVER tolerate on their local broadcasting stations, and can only access if they are willing to shell out $49.99. Indeed, Americans are like Quakers on moral issues when compared with other nations in the world.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[OhhJim]

I've mentioned this before, too, as you know, Acts 6:5. I think the main obstacle here is that most Americans just don't know what goes on in other countries, and probably don't care. It's All America, All The Time, as far as they are concerned. They might not even believe it when we tell them.

Besides, their pastors tell them how horrible America is becoming, and talk radio does the same. Who are you gonna believe?

 

[NumberOneSon]

I've mentioned this before, too, as you know, Acts 6:5. I think the main obstacle here is that most Americans just don't know what goes on in other countries, and probably don't care. It's All America, All The Time, as far as they are concerned. They might not even believe it when we tell them.

Besides, their pastors tell them how horrible America is becoming, and talk radio does the same. Who are you gonna believe?

Very true, OhhJim. Far too many Believers can't seem to see the world outside of their own personal box. All America, All The Time, indeed.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Harlan Norris]

Constant:
When I read the references in The Revelation, I also thought immediately of America. The description seemed to fit. However, I wont say that America is Babylon. I have heard valid and Scriptural arguments that discredit the America theory.
Dont get discouraged. I can tell that you - like myself - have been thinking on this subject a while. In fact, if things continue, I have a feeling others will be also thinking more and more on the topic of eschatology.
It is frustrating I know. I am there with you seeking truth. Dont give up on studying and rightly dividing God's Word. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. Also I encourage you to keep in mind that God also has a way to keep us ignorant (II Thess 2:11) but the good part is that God also has a way to make up smart (Luke 24:45). I hope soon it is God's will to open our eyes as He did to those in Luke 24:45.

Thanks, There have been a lot of good points here on this thread. All are worth considering. There's no doubt that there are worse places. However there isn't at this time a more influential nation. Again thanks, all good points.

 

[OhhJim]

Here's another point: Revelation says that the merchants of the earth were upset at Babylon's destruction because they were made rich because of Babylon. It doesn't say that Babylon was the only one buying their goods.

Now, you could make the case that prosperity is brought about by oil and gasoline, thus the nations which produce it are contributing to the wealth of merchants. For example, Ford isn't going to sell any cars if there is no gasoline to power them. I'm not sure I subscribe to this angle, but it could be argued.

As for the need for Babylon to be a port city, don't you think that if an inland city got nuked, we would still see the smoke rising from it? We have satellites. We have airplanes. How far away can a mushroom cloud be seen?

 

[ross3421]

Here's another point: Revelation says that the merchants of the earth were upset at Babylon's destruction because they were made rich because of Babylon. It doesn't say that Babylon was the only one buying their goods.
Now, you could make the case that prosperity is brought about by oil and gasoline, thus the nations which produce it are contributing to the wealth of merchants. For example, Ford isn't going to sell any cars if there is no gasoline to power them. I'm not sure I subscribe to this angle, but it could be argued.

As for the need for Babylon to be a port city, don't you think that if an inland city got nuked, we would still see the smoke rising from it? We have satellites. We have airplanes. How far away can a mushroom cloud be seen?

We need to view Babylon as the couterfeit the the Kingdom of God as many characteristics are the same....

KINGDOM OF GOD -------------------------------------------KINGDOM OF SATAN



Great battle/plagues prior Rev 16 ----------------------------Great battle/plagues prior Matt 24:7

A “KING” and a throne Rev 22:1 --------------------------A “KING” and a throne Is 14:13,14

No Temple /Gentiles Rev 21:22,24 ------------------------No Temple /Gentiles Rev 11:2

On a high hill Rev 21:10 -------------------------------------On a high hill Jer 51:25

Decorated with precious stones Rev 21:11-------------- Decorated precious stones Rev 17:4

Colored with scarlet and purple Ex 26 --------------------Colored scarlet and purple Rev 17:4

“Mark” in forehead of inhabitants Rev 22:4 -------------“Mark”forehead inhabitants Rev 14:22

Provider of all riches -----------------------------------------Provider of all riches Rev 18:12,13

As the Garden of Eden Is 51:3 Ez 36:35 -----------------As the Garden of Eden Ez 31

Holy Waters Ez 47:5-12 Rev 22:1,2----------------------- Holy Waters?

Fowls/beasts/nations dwell -------------------------------Fowls/beasts/nations dwell Ez 31:6

Strong as iron/break in pieces Dan 2:44 ---------------Rev 19:15 Strong as iron/break Dan 2:40

Four beasts Rev 4:6,7 --------------------------------------Four Beasts Dan 7:3-7

Comes as a flood -------------------------------------------Comes as a flood Rev 12:15

Divides the land Ez 48 ------------------------------------Divides the land Dan 11:39

Government Is 9:6,7 -----------------------------------------Government Ez 7:27 Rev 17:12




Thus when we view it as such we can determine the this city will be the central point on the face of the earth which will provide all earths riches and sustain life.

Also, we can determine the the world population will be centered around the city as with the case in the kingdom. I see those with the mark in thier right hand (gentiles) live within the city as supported by Rev 11:2. Those with the mark in thier foreheads inhabit the land around the city.

We can also get an idea of the size and location of the city. Does the city need to be on a port ? Well look at the merchants as they are not on thier ships but standing on land as they wail and cast dust upon thier heads. The city is Jerusalem and the size should replicate the area of new Jerusalem around 1500 mile square and an additional 700 miles of land outward.

We can know when and how the city is destroyed. Christ says be ye your plight neither in winter nor on the sabbath as sudden destruction will occur. Thus the merchants have come to worship the king. Destruction comes upon this city during this time, destruction is from God almighty as Christ returns as the 7th vial is poured out.

We can learn alot about our everlasting home by studying Babylon for in many ways it will be the same.


In Christ, Mark.

 

[bobbichan]

Quite a few have posted that the US is Babylon in Bible prophesy. It looks to me like this is probably true. First, What do you think? Second, , What do you think we that live here should do?

America is a part of Babylon. It is not JUST Babylon.

These are not MY opinions, but these are views of the historic version of eschatology... which is not popularly taught. This was basically the reason why the Protestant reformation began.

Upon finally seeing the word of God which was kept from the people, many realized that the antichrist had been fufilled by the papacy. Infact, those who hold the historic view believe that John knew that Rome would be the future fulfillment of this when writing Revelation. But to keep the manuscripts from being destroyed by Rome, he had to reference other scripture in the OT that spoke of the Antichrist. For the same reasons, you see in other NT books the phrases such as "Remember what I said when I was with you." Basically, the writers did not want these people to endure more persecution, so it had to be kept on the "down low" of sorts.

Now, getting back to Babylon...

Just as the protestant reformation was getting off the ground, and Rome was severely persecuting the "protestant heretics" as they were called, the pope arranged a counter-reformation of sorts. This counter reformation was called the Council of Trent (you can google this and get information on it). The purpose of this council was to devise methods of stopping the reformation, and bring people back to Rome. Out of this council, the Society of Jesus, or the Jesuits were formed. You can also google them for more information.

To make a long story short, the Jesuits were responsible for over roughly 400 years or more gradually adding Rome's doctrines into Protestantisim. Many of these such as Arminianism (Mans will is greater than God's. Which I formerly believed) can be found in roman doctrine... actually this was documented in the cannons of the Council of Trent:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

In laymans terms, this says that if anyone says that the Bible teaches predestination and election (Romans 9 is one example), they are excommunicated/ have become heretical.

At any rate, this isn't the right forum to preach doctrine. But what I find ironic about the Historic view is that unlike preterisim and futurisim which does not really deal with doctrine, Historisim makes doctrine a VERY important centerpeice.

Okay... With that said...

As time progresses, and the New World is up and going, the Jesuits and those who sometimes unknowingly supported them slowly instilled lots of doctrine into the protestant church... where we reach today.

Today the protestant churches no longer are really protestant. We have people uplifting MAN and not God (Joel Osteen anyone? Who can't say on national television that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light... but boy he sure loves Billy Graham!) There's a huge visible ecumicial movement (sorry I can't spell today).

Not only this, but America is a predominantly "Christian" nation. Now, if America really is no longer preaching reformed theology, but namely Roman doctrines... then it has become part of Babylon and it will be punished (Judgement is underway)

Where we stand today, America is at war with terrorists. We have no idea how long this war will be. How long will be pursuing radical muslims before we start pursuing people who "form a threat" to America's religion on their own shores? Granted, this is not a religious war right now... but I see it coming home in the future and the Elect being heavilly persecuted in this country because they refuse to be a part of the economic and religious system of this country.

So what should one do?

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

This does not mean that you MUST leave the country. This simply means that God's people must go back to the way of life that God has deemed for His people:

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

If you look in the Bible, God's people always lived away from the big cities, but in rural communities, living off of the land and keeping after God's creation.

The longer we stay in the city, working in specialized careers, making big money, and being dependant on industry, oil, and electricity... the longer we become a deeper part of the Beast system.

Not only this, but as we saw with 9/11 and Katrina: Cities are not the place to be when disaster strikes! People flock to the cities and larger groups of people thinking they will be safer, but in reality, they become part of a large target.

When punishment really starts raining down on this country, you will see it in the cities, but you will not find it upon the people who are not dependant on the Beast's system... because they "came out of her"

Heh... I know I just ruffled a lot of feathers.

 

[Harlan Norris]

America is a part of Babylon. It is not JUST Babylon.

These are not MY opinions, but these are views of the historic version of eschatology... which is not popularly taught. This was basically the reason why the Protestant reformation began.

Upon finally seeing the word of God which was kept from the people, many realized that the antichrist had been fufilled by the papacy. Infact, those who hold the historic view believe that John knew that Rome would be the future fulfillment of this when writing Revelation. But to keep the manuscripts from being destroyed by Rome, he had to reference other scripture in the OT that spoke of the Antichrist. For the same reasons, you see in other NT books the phrases such as "Remember what I said when I was with you." Basically, the writers did not want these people to endure more persecution, so it had to be kept on the "down low" of sorts.

Now, getting back to Babylon...

Just as the protestant reformation was getting off the ground, and Rome was severely persecuting the "protestant heretics" as they were called, the pope arranged a counter-reformation of sorts. This counter reformation was called the Council of Trent (you can google this and get information on it). The purpose of this council was to devise methods of stopping the reformation, and bring people back to Rome. Out of this council, the Society of Jesus, or the Jesuits were formed. You can also google them for more information.

To make a long story short, the Jesuits were responsible for over roughly 400 years or more gradually adding Rome's doctrines into Protestantisim. Many of these such as Arminianism (Mans will is greater than God's. Which I formerly believed) can be found in roman doctrine... actually this was documented in the cannons of the Council of Trent:



In laymans terms, this says that if anyone says that the Bible teaches predestination and election (Romans 9 is one example), they are excommunicated/ have become heretical.

At any rate, this isn't the right forum to preach doctrine. But what I find ironic about the Historic view is that unlike preterisim and futurisim which does not really deal with doctrine, Historisim makes doctrine a VERY important centerpeice.

Okay... With that said...

As time progresses, and the New World is up and going, the Jesuits and those who sometimes unknowingly supported them slowly instilled lots of doctrine into the protestant church... where we reach today.

Today the protestant churches no longer are really protestant. We have people uplifting MAN and not God (Joel Osteen anyone? Who can't say on national television that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light... but boy he sure loves Billy Graham!) There's a huge visible ecumicial movement (sorry I can't spell today).

Not only this, but America is a predominantly "Christian" nation. Now, if America really is no longer preaching reformed theology, but namely Roman doctrines... then it has become part of Babylon and it will be punished (Judgement is underway)

Where we stand today, America is at war with terrorists. We have no idea how long this war will be. How long will be pursuing radical muslims before we start pursuing people who "form a threat" to America's religion on their own shores? Granted, this is not a religious war right now... but I see it coming home in the future and the Elect being heavilly persecuted in this country because they refuse to be a part of the economic and religious system of this country.

So what should one do?

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

This does not mean that you MUST leave the country. This simply means that God's people must go back to the way of life that God has deemed for His people:

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

If you look in the Bible, God's people always lived away from the big cities, but in rural communities, living off of the land and keeping after God's creation.

The longer we stay in the city, working in specialized careers, making big money, and being dependant on industry, oil, and electricity... the longer we become a deeper part of the Beast system.

Not only this, but as we saw with 9/11 and Katrina: Cities are not the place to be when disaster strikes! People flock to the cities and larger groups of people thinking they will be safer, but in reality, they become part of a large target.

When punishment really starts raining down on this country, you will see it in the cities, but you will not find it upon the people who are not dependant on the Beast's system... because they "came out of her"

Heh... I know I just ruffled a lot of feathers.

No, no feather ruffeling here. This is pretty close to exactly the way I see it. Never the less since this is on the internet, it's safe to say that we haven't quite let go of the system. I believe , the moment of decision is not far off. Times being what they are, I can easily imagine a directive to take an identity chip in hand or forehead. National security, you know. Take it and life goes on as normal. Refuse it and be separated from society. At some point there will have to be something done about those who won't cooperate. It's not hard to imagine how that will go.