"Us vs. Them"

[PreachersWife2004]

One must wonder how many people decided not to be a Christian because of that kind of behavior.

I do think, though, that in most of those cases there's something else underlying their reasoning other than bad behavior from a few Christians. I think the bad behavior can be the straw or an impetus for turning away, though.

I'd not want to think about what God will say to me if I have ever given a person that excuse to turn away. Yikes.

 

[b&wpac4]

I'd not want to think about what God will say to me if I have ever given a person that excuse to turn away. Yikes.

I'm sure God is a lot more angry with the people who used to tell non-Christians to convert, get out of their country, or die.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm sure God is a lot more angry with the people who used to tell non-Christians to convert, get out of their country, or die.

Perhaps, but I think his anger would be pretty equal in both camps.

Luke 17:2
It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.
​

Granted, two other versions of this passage (in the other gospels) include little ones "who believe in me", which is a different denotation than Luke's version. Don't have hubby on hand to check the old text, either...

But I think you get the idea...

 

[b&wpac4]

I'm sure God is a lot more angry with the people who used to tell non-Christians to convert, get out of their country, or die.

For that matter, anybody of any religious belief that killed "in God's name". I'm not sure God would be all that happy about that situation.

 

[allhart]

Evil people?
Are you not evil, and thus, don't need Jesus' Salvation?
Seeing others as "sinners" by implying you aren't, is, itself, a sin.

As a Lutheran, I was taught that the HS alone can open the heart of the other. It's not about the Christian, but about those whom God reaches out for. Sometimes, for the evangelist, it is about themselves, about being right, about being a know-it-all of God. It's arrogant, it's rude, impatient, boastful as if you saved yourself and deserve to be in heaven.

That is NOT of God. That is against God, and if someone doesn't listen, they are doing the right thing.

Any Christian should come to another in humility. They should approach and listen, not just preach. They should demonstrate love, and draw people to Christ, not demand it.

I believe that we are all God's Children, and once you do, your attitude changes a lot. One Christian used to tell me, "God only loves his Children. He doesn't hear your prayers, Beanie." I asked, "But the bible says that we love him because he loved us first. The scripture isn't right? If I pray to ask God into my heart and forgive my sins, he won't hear me, because I'm not Christian yet?"

OF COURSE no one is going to listen to that bologna! It goes against scripture, does not serve God at all, but man, and shouldn't be listened to, but those with a big head and ego with say, "Well, fine! I'm going to shake the dust off of my sandals" and have no idea what they are talking about.

Is loving someone ONLY telling someone that their zipper is down?

Answer this:
When I was in college, there were non-Christians who said that gay people made them sick, and wished they could line them up and shoot them.
At the same time, there were some Christians who said that gay people were disgusting, abominations of God, and the Leviticus called for the death penalty, and we should follow the Mosaic Code.

Both were saying they wished they could execute me. Both often used vulgar names for "gay."

But you suggest that evil people and loving people do opposite things.
So, why could I not tell the difference?

I generally also believe what you are saying, but it sounds like you are confused when you say:
"If I pray to ask God into my heart and forgive my sins, he won't hear me, because I'm not Christian yet?"
'Cause asking the Lord into your heart and for forgiveness DOES make you a Christian. And I pray I don't come across like a know it all, I definitely don't! I pray everyday that God will help me to say the right things to you. He keeps me humble.
John 3:16 For God so love the world.. Not just the Church or Christians only, the world, my friend..I mention "the shake the dust off your feet"as a reference, Are people genuinely open to Jesus or are they just argumentative? Sometimes here on the forums is gets a bit confusing.
I think you are reading some extra perspective "your perceptions" that are not mine! Most of the difference between Christians and non-Christians is we know we are evil and they think they aren't all that bad. They tend to say they live in the middle-that not everything is black or white. Well there is a lot things that are. For one, you can't be moderately dead....

Now, about sin and choosing to idolize sexuality over God's word, I have no malice in my heart towards gay people. People don't usually understand how one can love the sinner and hate the sin, we tend to do that ourselves everyday.
If I could only forgive and love as Jesus did. I am becoming more like him every day of my life, and in the end he will finish it in His presence. My hope is in Him.
Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for all sin - for all people. From the beginning of their life to the end, and if people don't want see and honor his word, it is their choice. Well God changes hearts not me.
My biggest acknowledgment in my life was and is Redemption.
"Please be patient with me. God isn't finished with me yet" Here on the forums is where we practice sharing his word. Thanks for the input.

 

[ebia]

and 19:34:
The stranger that sojourneth with you shall be unto you as the home-born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

A beautiful quote indeed. I really should remember to include it in our liturgy some time. Thanks for reminding me of it.

 

[b&wpac4]

A beautiful quote indeed. I really should remember to include it in our liturgy some time. Thanks for reminding me of it.

People like to overlook a lot of the "Love Others" quotes from the Old Testament. This is not a slight to Jesus, but it's not all of those ideas just sprang forth from him, many have roots in the Old Testament and rabbinic literature, for that matter.

 

[ebia]

People like to overlook a lot of the "Love Others" quotes from the Old Testament. This is not a slight to Jesus, but it's not all of those ideas just sprang forth from him, many have roots in the Old Testament and rabbinic literature, for that matter.

Absolutely - couldn't agree more.

 

[Beanieboy]

I do think, though, that in most of those cases there's something else underlying their reasoning other than bad behavior from a few Christians. I think the bad behavior can be the straw or an impetus for turning away, though.

I'd not want to think about what God will say to me if I have ever given a person that excuse to turn away. Yikes.

Why did Gandhi say it? He very much liked their Christ, but said that our Christians are so much unlike our Christ.

My guess? Which did Christ do? "Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't this. Only take x number of steps on Sabbath..." No. That was Pharisees.

Christ told be what TO DO. Forgive your neighbor. Love your neighbor. Blessed are the poor, the meek, the peacemakers. He exemplified a gentile for faith, a centurian for his faith, a prostitute for her display of love, to show what the believers were lacking.

And STILL no one gets it. It boils down to cherry picking verses out of Leviticus.

Love is redefined, and 1 Corinthians ignored. People boast about their salvation in order to condemn others.

If you helped a homeless guy get off the street, have a home, a job, a network, and then he turned around and when walking down the street, when asked by someone for some spare change, yelled, "Get a job, you lousy bum!", how would feel about the man you helped?

That's God, and we are the "saved" condemning others.
We should be begging God for mercy for US, not others.
We are a disgrace to the religion.

 

[Beanieboy]

People like to overlook a lot of the "Love Others" quotes from the Old Testament. This is not a slight to Jesus, but it's not all of those ideas just sprang forth from him, many have roots in the Old Testament and rabbinic literature, for that matter.

They go beyond that. There was a poster who could only see the "Smackdown(TM)" of God. He would then offer predestination as the only solution, tell people to repent but say that God decides. He could only offer people being slaughtered or killed.

And of course, he was "chosen."

That is far more slighting of Jesus.

 

[Joachim]

The title of this thing reminds me of a Pink Floyd song.


Us and Them is just part of human nature though. People naturally gravitate towards those like them and distrust those that aren't like them. The Bush era in American politics began to crystalize it and frankly, it hasn't gotten better now. The government is no longer dedicated to pursuing every cultural division, but most of the populace still is. Rabid Obama fans say the most asinine things about their ideological opponents and the same can be said for Rabid Obama haters. Most rabid Obama fans wouldn't like me because I am a Blue Dog and most rabid Obama haters would hate me for the same reason because it their world you have to be of one mind. You have to be left on everything or right on everything. There is no such middle ground. The heroes in American politics today are Democrats like Blanche Lincoln and Republicans like Susan Collins, people who trod the middle and who don't give into this Limbaughesque-Olbermanic idea of seeing the world as one carte blanche and then going after your enemies with a vengeance.


I guess it applies to religion. Where I grew up, Baptists are not popular or liked unless they prove themselves to be "Baptists In Name Only" due primarily to the fact that most fundamentalist types in our area are fairly new arrivals who came and bucked up against an established culture and because they had personal and cultural values that contrasted with the established culture. Though that's not so much a religious thing as it is cultural. A Baptist who acts like a Catholic will be far more popular than the Catholic who acts like a Baptist (and there are specific ways assigned to how each one acts here)

But that's culture and people always make these distinctions. I personally could never live in Utah because I couldn't bear a Mormon theocracy, and I probably couldn't live in San Francisco because they'd tell me I was a redneck for my accent, a criminal for my guns, and a polluter because I think that protecting a well paying job is more important than a tree.


You know it's just the way it is and that's why I have my ideas as I do about how states should be construed, so that everyone has the chance to live with "us" and so that because everyone can live with their "us" they won't be considered with tearing down their "them"

 

[brightmorningstar]

Do you feel it is ethical or correct to label every person that isn't 100% just like you as anti-(your group)? I have seen this come up several times recently on this forum. Is it possible for someone to not be of your group (i.e. non-Christian if you are a Christian) but not be some sort of radical person bent on taking down your group?

The forum should be to debate issues but people do tend to get labelled, which is better avoided. Sadly as soon as someone starts labelling, say ‘gay’ or ‘conservative’ it kind of puts others in a separate group.

 

[David Brider]

Do you feel it is ethical or correct to label every person that isn't 100% just like you as anti-(your group)? I have seen this come up several times recently on this forum. Is it possible for someone to not be of your group (i.e. non-Christian if you are a Christian) but not be some sort of radical person bent on taking down your group?

I don't think it's ethical at all, no - setting up that sort of false "us and them" paradigm is really unhelpful, and leads to a lot of ghetto Christianity that's actually antithetical to Christian teaching (the idea that we're meant to be out there being salt and light is rather undermined if we just retreat into a "holy huddle" at every opportunity).

That said, it's obvious that there are some people who are really genuinely opposed to Christianity in particular, or religion in general (Mr Dawkins, take a bow...), but even then, I believe that the right thing to do is treat such people decently and politely and not automatically assume the worst of them.

One thing I find really rather disturbing is that because of my political opinions (I'm very left wing, effectively socialist), theological leanings (at least a bit liberal in some areas) and the positions I take on some subjects (for example, but by no means limited to, being pro gay rights) it's been implied (possibly outright stated, I'd have to double check) that I'm anti-Christian myself. Which of course is pretty nonsensical...

David.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The forum should be to debate issues but people do tend to get labelled, which is better avoided. Sadly as soon as someone starts labelling, say ‘gay’ or ‘conservative’ it kind of puts others in a separate group.

I don't think it's the labels so much, because yes, there are gay people here and there are conservative people here. It's the attitude that because someone is that, then they must be X, Y or Z. You can call me a conservative all day and it doesn't bother me because I am. But don't assume that I'm narrowminded, bigoted or close-minded because I am a conservative. (that's a general you, by the way, not a specific you).

 

[mpok1519]

its not a good idea to put people into groups, at all.

blue birds vs black birds
us vs them
blacks vs whites
cnn vs fox
those who are going to hell vs those who are not

the thing is, most people are registered independent voters in America, which reflects this idea that people are not big fans of bipartisianship. Most people are less likely to care what side of the political/religious spectrum one is on, but more likely to care if theres an inherant inhibition of cooperation among people.

 

[RobinRedbreast]

Do you feel it is ethical or correct to label every person that isn't 100% just like you as anti-(your group)? I have seen this come up several times recently on this forum. Is it possible for someone to not be of your group (i.e. non-Christian if you are a Christian) but not be some sort of radical person bent on taking down your group?

I don't feel it is correct to label and assume the world is against you. Because no one is 100% like you, so if that's what you're looking for, the entire world is against you.

Taking it less literally, I understand what you mean: People assume anyone who is not of their beliefs 100% is grouped into a huge "anti-me" group, and this leads to everything from ignoring those people, to attacking those people, to ridiculing those people, and so on.

It's not right... labeling and stereotyping leads to hatred and violence (mental and physical).

I love diversity, I love the differences throughout the human species in all respects, including religion. I have a hard time understanding the vile standpoints people take against each other, over nothing but a few differences. Even if people differ on beliefs.. there should be basic human-to-human respect that exists between everyone and allows people to co-exist in different states but peacefully at the same time.

Interestingly enough, never before have I seen such a lack of this basic respect, then within the most organized of religions.

 

[Penumbra]

The "Us vs Them" mentality is probably instinctual; people do it and other animals do it. I think it's something people should work on overcoming though...

To answer the original post, no, I don't view everyone different from me as against me. Sure, some groups are against me, but not everyone.

 

[gwenmead]

I do think, though, that in most of those cases there's something else underlying their reasoning other than bad behavior from a few Christians. I think the bad behavior can be the straw or an impetus for turning away, though.

This was certainly true for me. The wrong Christian at the wrong time helped push me over into apostasy for good. It wasn't that there was nothing else going on, it was simply a matter of timing.

/digression

With regard to the OP, it sounds as if you're asking if tribalism is ethical.

Ethical or not, it seems to be a major part of human social behavior; maybe we wouldn't survive without it. I do think there's a big difference between being able to fit into a social group vs. vilifying groups you're not in, though. The former might serve to provide a certain stability, while the latter... well, the latter can lead to war, racism, sexism, all sorts of nasty things.

Most of the time when I see someone fling an "anti-<insert whatever>" label around, there seems to be a measure of hostility and paranoia that goes along with it. Maybe the label fits, maybe it doesn't...

I don't know. I don't know if it's ethical or not. I'll have to think about that some more.

 

[b&wpac4]

The OP was a reaction to specific threads going on at the time it was written. In one, a person told me that because I was not a Christian, I must be a committed anti-Christian doing everything I can to bring down Christianity. I find this position to be flawed on many levels. I don't view every Christian I meet as a person who is completely committed to bringing me down or trying to oppress me.

 

[gwenmead]

I understand.

I agree that it's flawed. If nothing else, an automatic "everyone not like me is hostile to me" reaction is paranoid and not terribly bright.