Urban legend?

[Local]

Did you get a name? Or was this the same guy Billnew was talking about?

Same guy. Interesting that they didn't present any witnesses. After all he was with other pro war demonstrators.

 

[JoshuaW]

John Kerry summarized the testimony of 150 soldiers before Congress in presenting his information about atrocities in Vietnam. You call this hearsay. It was only heasay because Kerry did not have those 150 veterans in the room with him. He spoke for them. He, and they, hoped that by revealing what they knew, their own service and honor would shine in contrast to the horrors they saw others commit. Kerry began:


I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do. They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
http://www.c-span.org/2004vote/jkerrytestimony.asp

By denying the occurence of atrocities in Vietnam or Iraq, or by reviling those who speak out, veterans lower themselves to the level of the perpetrators. Much is demanded of our troops, and honor is most important.

 

[MachZer0]

I don't see where your point was proven. The only thing proven was both you and Kerry are willing to go to bat on other people's words since you didn't witness what you are defending.

Personally, I believe the guys that talked to Kerry claiming they witnessed crimes, and the people who say they were spit on. I also believe both claims have been taken well beyond what actually happened. Spitting on soldiers returning from war is wrong as well as raping and killing women and children is.

While I admire your position on witnessing war crimes, I doubt you would have been able to do much. You certainly could not have stopped a large group of men commiting them, your choice would have been to report them.

Makes you wonder why Kerry didn't report crimes of which he claims to be aware, doesn't it?

What would you have done if you reported this to your superiors and it was ignored?

It wouldn't have been ignored.

 

[ElvisFan42]

Makes you wonder why Kerry didn't report crimes of which he claims to be aware, doesn't it?
It wouldn't have been ignored.

Being aware of and witnessing are two different things.

Why would you have not been ignored when others were? What would you have done if you were ignored? Your answer doesn't cover that, it tries to divert.

 

[MachZer0]

Being aware of and witnessing are two different things.

Kerry would have had a duty to report any war crime which he witnessed or of which he was aware.

Why would you have not been ignored when others were?

Do you have evidence of war crimes that were committed yet ignored when reported? I didn't think so

What would you have done if you were ignored? Your answer doesn't cover that, it tries to divert.

It's a hypothetical that would not have happened, so there is no point to the question.

 

[ElvisFan42]

Kerry would have had a duty to report any war crime which he witnessed or of which he was aware.

Do you know that he was aware of any while he was in Vietnam? Do you know that he didn't report it if so?

Do you have evidence of war crimes that were committed yet ignored when reported? I didn't think so

Evidence? What sort of evidence? Do people that were that claim they reported it and were ignored count? I guess if you've already answered the question, you aren't really interested in an answer.

It's a hypothetical that would not have happened, so there is no point to the question.

Especially when you don't have a good answer.

Gee, almost had an actual conversation, guess I was hoping for too much. Have a good day.

 

[MachZer0]

Do you know that he was aware of any while he was in Vietnam? Do you know that he didn't report it if so?

At the time of Kerry's testimony before Congress, he was still an officer in the Naval Reserve. Thus, he had an obligation to report whatever crimes he was aware of.

Especially when you don't have a good answer.

That it couldn't have happened is a good answer.

 

[JoshuaW]

At the time of Kerry's testimony before Congress, he was still an officer in the Naval Reserve. Thus, he had an obligation to report whatever crimes he was aware of.

Do you have evidence that John Kerry personally witnessed atrocities in Vietnam?

 

[imind]

That it couldn't have happened is a good answer.

did the massacre at my lai not happen, then? and there was no attempted cover-up there, either, was there?

 

[justanobserver]

Was never spit on but I got called baby killer along with other garbage when I served. When I first enlisted in '74 over a year after the main part of the war ended, the miltiary was still not looked upon favorably by a lot of the people. Dont think I ever got called the names or flipped off as much I did then. Although we wore our ciovvies off base, our haircuts gave us away and thusly, folks would comment, flip off, curse, etc. When I got out of the Corps, I went out the gate in my civvies out of habit.

Years later I re-enlisted and went Army. Then the Gulf War - once again, not everyone viewed us favorably. Afterwards, folks gave parades, welcome signs and all and it was good. But you could always count on a protest gathering outside the base or in town and get flipped the bird, called names, etc.

ahhh, the memories of serving to make sure the protestors have the right and freedom to call me a baby killer.

When I finally got out in Dec '00 at Ft Lewis, WA, I was in civilian clothes as I caught the bus out the main gate to Seattle Int Airport to fly back home. Old habits I guess - get out of uniform before going off post so we wouldnt offend the good folks we were serving with our prescence. Now, looking back, wished I wore my uniform that last day. It hangs in my closet with its 6 rows of ribbons, sergeant stripes, hash marks and memories of pride and honor that was deserved and earned.

Please escuse my musings; just rambling some down memory lane a bit here for a second or two.

 

[USincognito]

JAO, one observation+question and one musing recollection of my own.

One thing that's always struck me as strange about the tales of hippies spitting on VietNam combat vets returning from theater is I never hear any ancillary stories about them kicking some dirty hippy butt. I just can't see how some guy who'd spent 8 months of his year in bush collecting VC ears wouldn't drop one of his salivary assailants with a quick right cross... at least a few times with all the supposed occurances of this event.

My military experiences started at birth when I was born on an Air Force Base. We shipped out of the west coast in early '69 and came back in late '71*. I don't recall any stories of VietNam related harassment for either trip. I'm not sure if my dad wore his uniform, but he did have a flattop from about 1963-1973. The only things I remember over the years were threats to Americans from locals while we lived in Iran and Germany.

I went to Texas A&M in 1986 for semester and was in the Corps of Cadets there and remeber being treated well. In 1988 I did Army enlisted basic at Fort Sill, entered the reserves and started advanced ROTC. Never had any trouble wearing my BDUs around town, nor did the trainees and pilots from the local Air Force Base when they went out in uniform. I was in OBC at Fort Sill during Deasert Storm, wore my BDUs off base all the time and wore my Class As to my college graduation. Again nothing.

A piece of me wonders if location might have had a part to play in our different experiences. Even when we lived in my mom's home state of Massachusetts with my liberal Democrat maternal family, my father heard no slander because most people there outside of Boston are very patriotic and had living memories of WWII in the early 70s.

* My mom is my memory bank for stuff that happened in those earliest years so I'm a bit fuzzy.

 

[MachZer0]

Do you have evidence that John Kerry personally witnessed atrocities in Vietnam?

I have evidence that he claims to have been aware of war crimes. Have you seen it?

 

[MachZer0]

did the massacre at my lai not happen, then? and there was no attempted cover-up there, either, was there?

My Lai didn't happen in my unit, so whatever happened there is irrelevant to my point

 

[justanobserver]

JAO, one observation+question and one musing recollection of my own.

One thing that's always struck me as strange about the tales of hippies spitting on VietNam combat vets returning from theater is I never hear any ancillary stories about them kicking some dirty hippy butt. I just can't see how some guy who'd spent 8 months of his year in bush collecting VC ears wouldn't drop one of his salivary assailants with a quick right cross... at least a few times with all the supposed occurances of this event.

My military experiences started at birth when I was born on an Air Force Base. We shipped out of the west coast in early '69 and came back in late '71*. I don't recall any stories of VietNam related harassment for either trip. I'm not sure if my dad wore his uniform, but he did have a flattop from about 1963-1973. The only things I remember over the years were threats to Americans from locals while we lived in Iran and Germany.

I went to Texas A&M in 1986 for semester and was in the Corps of Cadets there and remeber being treated well. In 1988 I did Army enlisted basic at Fort Sill, entered the reserves and started advanced ROTC. Never had any trouble wearing my BDUs around town, nor did the trainees and pilots from the local Air Force Base when they went out in uniform. I was in OBC at Fort Sill during Deasert Storm, wore my BDUs off base all the time and wore my Class As to my college graduation. Again nothing.

A piece of me wonders if location might have had a part to play in our different experiences. Even when we lived in my mom's home state of Massachusetts with my liberal Democrat maternal family, my father heard no slander because most people there outside of Boston are very patriotic and had living memories of WWII in the early 70s.

* My mom is my memory bank for stuff that happened in those earliest years so I'm a bit fuzzy.

Am glad your experiences were more of a positive thing. The bulk and majority of mine dealing with civilains off base was cordial, or at least ambivilant.

Perhaps it could be more of a location factor - most of my more overt negative experiences were out here in CA although I been on a lot of posts/bases around the US and elsewhere and had the odd angry outburst/gesture.

I do agree that if some long haired hippy had spit on a marine grunt returning from Incountry, there would be one dead hippy. I personally know and have talked with those that came home from Nam and later they would mention to someone they was over there and the reaction would range from disgust to hostility but it would have been after they were home and not at the airport.

Years later when I re-enlisted and went Army, I would go out off base to have a beer and shoot some pool and truth be told, to just enjoy some down time and mind my own business. Typical as humans can be, there would be folks, mostly of civilian nature, would make a rude comment when they found out I was active duty or take it as a physical challenge to see if I was "really that tough" when they was with their friends. Most times I would ignore and even walk away and leave the bar but theres that time to time...

sometimes they just wouldnt let you walk away and had to prove to themselves and to their buddies that they was tough, I guess. That usually wound up being a sad thing to happen - I didnt go out off base unless I was with my friends from my unit - who were also Army and infantry. we never lost to a civilian.

'course, all this is a tad off topic of the original question of protestors spitting on military personnel as opposed to wanna be tough guys trying to pick a fight to lose, errr, to prove a point against a soldier.