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Ur thoughts on Tithe.

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Nadiine

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wild01 said:
hmmm

As I said in here before
tithing is an old testement practice
offering is the new testament practice.
giving freely of your heart because you want to and because you feel a call on your life to spead God's word.

now that that is out of the way I want to address something I have noticed in here that does disturb me a bit.

It seems that some of you dislike the idea that your money could go to paying a pastor or renting a building for the church to meet in. I am puzzled by this.

If a congregation is large enough that it must rent or buy a building in order to meet, than who should pay for that building? If you don't think that it is your responsibility to support your churches building, than you shouldn't use that bulding.

as far as a pastor's pay goes Paul made it clear that a pastor should be able to depend on the body for support not only for himself but for his entire family. (see 1cor9 specifically verse 14)

:amen: Your post is EXACTLY what I've taken issue with and responded to several times over.
Rep Rep

I know of SEVERAL small home churches that started with less than 10, that GREW to over 60 and had to move to a larger facility. You rightly ask, 'WHO PAYS FOR IT'?
Some churches have grown by the hundreds & thousands, Where do they go? split & start a new home church just to keep it tiny?
The tone I'm reading is a hostility against attending any corporate assembling/gathering of Christians anywhere.? (which brought up my other point of issue where you then have ONLY false religions with established places of corporate gathering for the unsaved to be able to go to for spiritual assistance!! yikeeeeeees! :eek: ).

What I see is a general rebellion against offerings of any kind (by a few)... and a judgment/attack against ALL Pastors/shepherds/teachers who lead in any "church establishment" as if they're all greedy thieves that God will deal with later.
That is beyond my understanding scripturally when we have all the evidences in the NT of corporate Christian gatherings & that GOD appoints them Himself :confused: :confused:

In all my previous posts here (if you care to backtrack) I have listed in detail all the NT verses that refute some of the drastic claims being made here.
They've been ignored.

Worse, my statements seem misconstrued. I never said "we are under OT law of tithing", as that was pinpointed SEVERAL times in reply to my posts.
NT offerings are not the same as OT tithing by any stretch. Tithes were mandatory at a set rate, offerings are willful with no set rate (other than the principle of the more you sow the more you reap)
That went ignored.

oh well.
Again, I judge no one on this issue - whether they give too much, too little or not at all (I'd hope that's reciprocated as well!)... my interest is in how I respond to His word becuz He's my judge & Him alone. I'm responsible for myself.

:bow: We will all give an account to God
 
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StevenL

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MidnightCandel777 said:
Trust me, dude, there WILL be a price to pay for ANYONE who touches God's money...... pastor or not!

100 DOLLARS? That's quite a check you get if 100 dollars is 10% of your income.
That's all God wants: ten percent. Everything else is sacrifice. It's like my pastor says, "if you bring the tithe into the store house, then you will be blessed by good measure, pressed down shaken togerther, and running over."

But remember, if you rob or defraud God in any way then you will be cursed with a curse.
All this is in the bible. Check it out for yourself.


Peace

Trust YOU? :)

This is the sort of vile wickedness that causes me to continue to try to destroy the false "church" tithe teaching. Leaders who keep bringing the curse of the law back onto the House of God and brainwashed sheep who continue to allow the false, wicked teaching to carry on from generation to generation.

NO ONE here is or will be cursed if they don't "tithe" to a church. NO ONE here will be cursed in relation to ANY AMOUNT of money they give or don't give to a church.

Some of you had better be very very careful with your "cursing" of God's people based on teachings about the Levitical priesthood and the Theocracy of Israel. You have NO IDEA what you're talking about and what you're going to bring upon yourself if you continue to do such evil. I'm afraid your knowledge base just isn't big enough to justly "curse" anyone, much less one of God's children.

Any "cursing" needs to be done.....let's leave it to God. Oh, sorry, that's right, He didn't send His Son to curse, did He?
 
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ronmathison

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1 Thessalonians 2:9 (N.A.S.B.)

"For you recall, brethren, our labor and hardship, how working night and day so as not to be a burden to any of you, we proclaimed to you the gospel of God."

Wow! Paul supported HIMSELF!

(and he was an APOSTLE!)

Also, Acts 18:3 (speaking of Paul the APOSTLE):

"and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers."
 
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Nadiine

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ronmathison said:
1 Thessalonians 2:9 (N.A.S.B.)

"For you recall, brethren, our labor and hardship, how working night and day so as not to be a burden to any of you, we proclaimed to you the gospel of God."

Wow! Paul supported HIMSELF!

(and he was an APOSTLE!)

Also, Acts 18:3 (speaking of Paul the APOSTLE):

"and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers."

Yes, this is very true :)
Do you know any of the background and what his mission was?

By chapter 8 of Acts the persecution against the Christians was on... by chapter 12, he's traveled to Asia Minor & Cyprus, by Chapter 21, Paul's in Rome.

He was a traveling missionary (not clergy) - he was like a GUEST SPEAKER, not the Pastor of the churches that were going up.
These were new churches that were being established & they had problems.
He was well aware & sensitive to their immaturity and didn't want to cause them to have any issues with him.
(that message is all thru his writings - he had alot of instruction & correction to give them)

He didn't want to add to their burden when he visited; they were already paying their offerings for their churches and many were still weak in faith - he was working very hard not to stumble anyone.

We also have record of at least 2 times he took collections from well-off churches to disperse to poorer ones, so he had no problem taking offerings for a worthy purpose.
(Acts 11:19-27 Paul takes offerings from Antioch to impoverished Judean Christians)

If I remember correctly, Paul DOES take things from some people on some of his journeys? I'd have to look that up.

One reason you can't use this in any support is that the very man you're using, is the man that said the Pastor should be able to eat from His labors. 'Don't muzzle the ox as he treads.'
Just because as a visitor he didn't TAKE the $$ during his stay, doesn't mean he was against paying the Pastors (who lived there & shepherded that flock) or giving of offerings within the corporate church.

By the way, I'd like to mention, that in some churches I've been to (since I've moved quite a bit & looked for a church) I found a good amount of Pastors that weren't paid salary - they kept their jobs instead.

I also know of large stadium crusades here in Cal. that Harvest Crusade puts on (among others), & charges NOTHING to attend.
It's all paid for by donations to their ministries from Christians.

One reason a pastor works solely for a church is that as the church grows, the responsibilities grow; they do ALOT more than just preach on sunday morning!
They are EXTREMELY busy with many things - alot have to quit their jobs so they can donate proper time to congregational needs.

Anyways, I find Paul's actions absolutely admirable - as you do! :) Paul is my absolute favorite - he rocks!!
 
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wild01

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ronmathison said:
1 Thessalonians 2:9 (N.A.S.B.)

"For you recall, brethren, our labor and hardship, how working night and day so as not to be a burden to any of you, we proclaimed to you the gospel of God."

Wow! Paul supported HIMSELF!

(and he was an APOSTLE!)

Also, Acts 18:3 (speaking of Paul the APOSTLE):

"and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers."

1Co 9:1-10 ALT I am an apostle, am I not? I am free, am I not? I have seen Jesus Christ our Lord, have I not? You* are my work in the Lord, are you* not? (2) If to others I am not an apostle, _but_ yet doubtless I am to you*. For you* are the seal [fig. proof] of my apostleship in the Lord. (3) My defense to the ones examining me is this: (4) Do we never at all have a right to eat and to drink? (5) Do we never at all have a right to be taking along [or, traveling around with] a sister, a wife, as also the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas [i.e. Peter]? (6) Or do only I and Barnabas not have a right not to be working? (7) Who ever serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of the fruit of it? Or [who] tends a flock and does not eat of the milk of the flock? (8) I do not speak these things according to human [standards], do I? Or the Law also says these [things], does it not? (9) For it has been written in the Law of Moses, "You will not muzzle an ox while it is threshing [the chaff from the grain]." God does not care for the oxen, does He? [Deut 25:4] (10) Or does He certainly say [this] for our sakes? For our sakes it was written, that in hope [or, confident expectation] ought the one plowing to be plowing, and the one threshing in hope [ought] to partake of his hope.

here Paul justifies his right to be paid be a church

2Co 11:7-9 ALT Or did I commit sin [by] humbling myself so that _you*_ should be exalted, because I freely proclaimed the Gospel of God to you*? (8) I robbed other assemblies, having taken wages [from them] for your* ministry; (9) and being present with you* and having been in need, I was not a [financial] burden to anyone, for the brothers supplied my need, having come from Macedonia. And in everything I kept myself from being a burden to you*, and I will keep [myself].

here Paul shows that he was being supported by another body so he could preach in Corinth for free.

Paul didn't always support himself, he preached that pastoral support was neccesary and that pastors shoud be supported by the body.
 
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Biff

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The way I see it, you can do one of two things - and both are new testament scriptural.

GIVE only as the Spirit leads! Never promise to bring yourself under the law to tithe. Let your yes be yes and your no be no... Jesus says - anything more is sin. Sometimes you may be led to give nothing, other times you may be led to give a lot, and give it cheerfully.

But if you tithe a certain percentage to a church then later on meet someone in need, but you chose not to help them because you reasoned that you already GAVE God His portion.... See what I mean???

Anyway, be free, remain walking after the Spirit, and don't come under any OT tithing law.

The other thing, you can be like the church in the book of Acts where everyone sold all they owned and distributed it amongst the spirit-filled church members, so that they lacked nothing.

If you have some time and want to look at what I believe (quoting what God has to say afterwards) about the subject, go to... http://www.intergate.com/~subi/biblesay.htm#tithing

God bless you,
Biff
 
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Nadiine

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wild01 said:
here Paul shows that he was being supported by another body so he could preach in Corinth for free.

Paul didn't always support himself, he preached that pastoral support was neccesary and that pastors shoud be supported by the body.

Exactly - And as I mentioned in my post, PAUL WAS A TRAVELING MISSIONARY-along with guiding the new Gentiles churches. He wasn't part of any Clergy of any one church.

In all my years being raised in the church & having a relative who was a missionary to Thailand, I can assure you, they do not recieve church offerings when they come back to visit their home churches as if they've become "part of the staff"!

In Paul's case it's no different. That would be like having a Missionary visit a church & CHARGE the church for being there as if they're clergy; working for that church. It's an ELECTIVE issue/ position.

Our old Baptist church would take a special "love offering" when a Missionary would come speak - anyone giving knew that that collection was going right to that missionary & could ELECT donating to them or not.

I see no contradiction w/ Paul's position in correlation with giving offerings.

Bottom line, it costs money to operate anywhere Christians assemble together
(unless you & your kids want to sit outside & swelter in 100 degree temps or sit in the rain & freezing cold somewhere) :p :eek:
 
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NiccoLau

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There are christians who does not believe in tithe but they are 100% wrong. When you give your money to the lord, he will bless you back 100 times more. it's not a matter of money really. but it's your relationship with god. But if i were to be in your situation of having a wife that are not save, i would just tithe and explain to her why am i doing such stuff on church.
 
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SamsDad101

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Well gang, I've heard several arguments (all of them decent) as to why we don't have to tithe. And to be honest, it all sounds like excuses. Do you have to tithe? Of course not. You could (probably convincingly) make the case that nothing is required, per se, under grace.

But here's my case for tithing.

My wife and I have been tithing since we were saved. For us, it's a basic tenet of our faith, a crucial demonstration to the Lord our obedience and devotion to Him above and beyond everything else in our lives, even our finances. Not just when it's convenient, not just when we "can spare it", but every time...every time. God has been there for us every time we've needed Him, not just when it's convenient, not just when He felt like it, but every time. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so if He required that He be honored w/ the first fruits of His people's earnings back then (OT), then why would that precept change over time?

The main thing to remember here is that God asks us to be joyful givers, to do it because we want to, because it's our opportunity to:

A) Demonstrate (tangibly) to the Lord that we trust Him in all things, including our finances. If He asks for 10%, the we'll joyfully give 10%. KNOWING that He will provide for us (which He has).

B) Support our church and it's leadership (those toys in the nursery and toddler rooms don't grow on trees). I think it's terribly selfish to make the convenient assumption that "God will provide for my church, I don't need to give tithes or offerings." Oh really? And how will God provide for His church? Short answer, with,by and through His people! That means you. Yes, of course, God will provide...if not through you, then someone else. Personally, I'd rather the Lord not have to ask someone else because I refused.

C) Insurance. My wife and I have never seriously worried about finances because we have always honored the Lord in this area, and in return, He has always honored and increased us.

Some Financial advisors like to say "pay yourself first" whenever you get paid (ie, invest in your 401K, etc.), but that's a worldly view. We give back to God what is His in the first place, THEN take care of your investments, savings, whatever.

My point is that, no, you are not required to tithe. BUT, if you're not, I would seriously recommend that you pray about and earnestly seek the Lord's desire for you in this area. The Lord should be second to none in our lives...

Malachi 3 : 8-12
"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse, the whole nation of you-because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into my storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this" says the Lord almighty "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your field will not cast their fruit", says the Lord Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land", says the Lord Almighty.

 
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Matheson

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The early church SHARED

EQUALLY their possesions,


and WHEN offerings were taken,

it was because they were being

persecuted/martyred ,

and NEEDED help ,

so as to NOT BE KILLED

(them and their families)


They (The Apostles) most certainly

did NOT take offerings

to 'pay off their mortgages' ,

and

'stuff their fat bank-accounts'

(hope this helps)
 
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seekthetruth909

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SteelDisciple said:
I keep hearing some people say that we are not under the old law.

Just wondering...when did Jesus say he abolished the old law? Can someone give me a scriptural reference.


Just trying to learn. :)

THE THREE MAIN ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT OF TITHING.

1. Tithing was a pre- Mosaic Law because Abraham tithed.
Was Abraham commanded by God to tithe? Did Abraham tithe only one time? Did Abraham tithe his personal property or just the spoils of war? Read Gen 14:20, Hebrews 7:3-5 If we follow all the examples of Abraham should we also practice polygamy, give burnt offerings and practice circumcision? Did Abraham teach his children to always tithe? If Abraham taught his children to tithe why did Jacob make a proposal to God?
He would tithe only if God would bless him first with good fortune. Read Gen 28:22

2. Jesus told the Pharisees to continue to tithe their spices.
Matt 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Jesus also told the leper he cured to offer burnt offerings as Mosaic Law commanded.

Luke 5:14 Then Jesus ordered him, “Don't tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.” Matthew 8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don't tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” Exodus 10:25, 20:24

Why do no Christian churches today offer burnt offerings as sacrifices?

Why did Jesus on these two occasions recommend keeping Mosaic Law?
Was it because the leper and the Pharisees were still under Mosaic Law until the crucifixion of Christ? Galatians 4:4

Was the life of Jesus the fulfillment of The Law and his dying on the cross the abolishment of The Law? Colossians 2 16 Are we now under the new covenant of Grace? Romans 6:14 Ephesians 2:8

Galatians 4:4 “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law”

3. Jesus came to fulfill the law not change it.
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” [Written before the crucifixion of Christ]
If the law has not been abolished should we still practice all 613 Old Testament laws including tithing? What does the word “fulfill” imply in this context? Consider Ephesians 2:15 [written after the crucifixion of Christ] “By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.”
Matthew 5:17 and Ephesians 2:15 seem to contradict each other so we must search more scripture for clarification. Consider the following passages:

Galatians 3:25 “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”

2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

Galatians 3:23 “Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.”

Galatians 3:11 “Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” [ Heb. 2:4]

Hebrews 8:7 “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.”

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.”

Galatians 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 3:2 “ I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?”

Hebrews 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made).

Galatians 5:3 “Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.”

Galatians 3:10 “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written:” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Romans 7:2-4 “Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God."

What do the previous passages imply in regards to the Old Covenant laws?
If we follow one law are we then obligated to follow all the law?
Has the death and resurrection of Christ abolished all Old Testament commandments and regulations?



Additional notes


Even Jewish Rabbis who follow the old covenant today refuse to collect tithes. Why? Only direct descendants of Levites are permitted to collect tithes according to the law and the temple in Jerusalem with all the genealogy records was destroyed. Hebrews 7: 5 Deuteronomy 18:1, 26:12

Who are the new priests of Christ and where is their temple?

1 Peter 2:5 “you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” 1 Peter 2:9

1 Corinthians 6:19
19 “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;”
There are more Old Testament scriptures on tithing implying that there are three tithes resembling a taxation system, [Deut. 14 26-29] and that tithes are to be eaten, [Deut.14: 22-26]. Do any modern tithing churches eat their tithes?

Note: In relation to Deut14: 22-26. Some churches claim food was tithed because ancient Israel was an agricultural society and there was no money to tithe. Is this true?
Genesis 17:12
“For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.”

New Testament instructions on giving.

2 Cor 9:7-10 “Each of you must give as you have made up your mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”

2 Cor 8:13-15 “ I do not mean that there should be relief for others and pressure on you, but it is a question of a fair balance between your present abundance and their need, so that their abundance may be for your need, in order that there may be a fair balance. As it is written, "The one who had much did not have too much, and the one who had little did not have too little."

1 Corinthians 16
The Collection for God's People
1 Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.
James 1:27 “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.”
Galatians 5: 4 “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love

Note: Please read all scriptures quoted here in their complete context to have a better understanding of God’s word. A more complete study by a theologian and pastor can be found at: http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/
 
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Nadiine

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Matheson said:
The early church SHARED

EQUALLY their possesions,


and WHEN offerings were taken,

it was because they were being

persecuted/martyred ,

and NEEDED help ,

so as to NOT BE KILLED

(them and their families)


They (The Apostles) most certainly

did NOT take offerings

to 'pay off their mortgages' ,

and

'stuff their fat bank-accounts'

(hope this helps)


Can we PLEASE STOP JUDGING Christian Leaders/Pastors with such a broad brush?
This shines a horrible light on Christianity when we attack in generalities like this especially in public!
The "the accuser of the brethren" is our enemy, Satan; it shouldn't be our own. :cry:

At least just make note of "a few" of them or something; this type of statement makes it sound like the majority if not all of them in charge.

People WILLINGLY give $ even if they're duped by some fraud pastors - and the money is still counted worthy by God becuz they give (usually ignorantly) in faith to GOD.
THEY STILL GET THEIR REWARD FROM GOD for giving - so it's not wasted $ and GOD will judge those who fleece & steal for personal gain. They don't get away with it.

Anyways, the fact that Pastors should earn their living off their work means the church IS paying offerings and Paul approves it.

I see your new here, I do welcome you to CF :angel: :hug:
 
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seekthetruth909

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Nadiine said:
One reason you can't use this in any support is that the very man you're using, is the man that said the Pastor should be able to eat from His labors. 'Don't muzzle the ox as he treads.'
rocks!!

Actually the word pastor is only mentioned once in the New Testament and not in relation to this verse.Paul is talking about apostles in this verse not pastors.
1 Corinthians 9 The Rights of an Apostle

Here is an interesting article on the subject.

<H3 style="MARGIN: auto 0in">Should Pastors Be Salaried?
A Closer Look At A Popular Tradition
by Darryl M. Erkel
Historically, pastors during the first-century period were normally not paid on a full-time basis. Although they may have periodically received gifts of food, clothing, and even some monetary assistance at times, there is no historical evidence to suggest that such pastors were given a full-time salary sufficient to meet their financial needs and obligations. This is confirmed by the following considerations:
1. Most of the congregations were too poor to financially support a full-time pastor, not to mention a plurality of pastors which is the New Testament pattern (Acts 14:23; 20:17,28; Philippians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13; 1 Timothy 5:17; Titus 1:5; Hebrews 13:17; James 5:14; 1 Peter 5:1-4). In some cases, they were even too poor to support an apostle or assist other churches who were suffering (1 Thessalonians 2:9; Philippians 4:10-15).
2. Even though Paul, as an apostle, had the right to financial support (1 Corinthians 9:6-7,14), he repeatedly established a pattern of not asking or demanding money from the churches which he served. He did this for a variety of reasons:
A. He did not want to place an unnecessary hardship or burden upon the churches (2 Corinthians 11:7-9; 12:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:9; 2 Thessalonians 3:8). How many pastors today consider the financial burden put upon God's people when seeking a pastoral position? How many of them diligently seek the will of God in these important matters (most often, it is simply assumed that one must be salaried)?
B. He did not want to cause a hindrance to the Gospel's acceptance, since some people might assume that he was only in it for the money (1 Corinthians 9:12; 2 Corinthians 2:17; 7:2). How many pastors today, who live lavish lifestyles, ever stop to consider that this might possibly hinder the furtherance of the Gospel, or that it might feed into the stereotype that all preachers are religious hucksters?
C. He wanted to be in a position of always being able to give unto others in need, instead of continually being on the receiving end (Acts 20:33-35; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-12). How often is this demonstrated in the lives and ministries of our modern pastors?
With this in mind, it is less than likely that he would have burdened the churches he planted by requiring that they secure full-time remuneration for their pastors. Carl B. Hoch, Jr., professor of New Testament at Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary, states:
In New Testament days, leaders were normally not paid. That is, money was given more as a gift than as an income or a salary. Leaders like Paul could receive money, but Paul chose not to receive any from the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 9:8-12). He wanted to serve without depending on any church for financial support. Churches had a responsibility to "reward the ox" (1 Timothy 5:17) and to share with those who taught (Galatians 6:6). But money was never to be the driving force of ministry (1 Peter 5:2). Unfortunately, churches today will not call a man until they feel they can support him, and some men will not seriously consider a call if the financial package is "inadequate" (All Things New [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1995] p.240).
Watchman Nee, in his book, The Normal Christian Church Life (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1980), likewise states:
It is not necessary that elders resign their ordinary professions and devote themselves exclusively to their duties in connection with the church. They are simply local men, following their usual pursuits and at the same time bearing special responsibilities in the church. Should local affairs increase, they may devote themselves entirely to spiritual work, but the characteristic of an elder is not that he is a "full-time Christian worker." It is merely that, as a local brother, he bears responsibility in the local church (pp.62-63).
3. In Acts 20:33-35, Paul appears to clearly establish a pattern or model for those who serve as pastor-elders:
A. They were not to covet riches or material possessions (v.33).
B. They were to be in a position to financially meet their own needs and even the needs of others by working with their hands (v.34). Unlike the many church leaders in our day who never seem to leave their cushy chairs, Paul was not afraid of physically hard work. In the words of the Didache, "Let everyone who 'comes in the name of the Lord' be received... If he has no craft [occupation] provide for him according to your understanding, so that no man shall live among you in idleness because he is a Christian" (12.1, 4-5 [LCL]).
C. By working hard as did Paul, church elders were, therefore, able to both help the weak and sick as well as exemplify the words of Jesus who said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (v.35).
D. When Paul says, "In everything I showed you by working hard in this manner" (v.35), it is clear that he is providing a model for them to follow. But why provide such a model if pastors are to be fully salaried and completely living off the churches they shepherd? Such a model only makes sense if pastors, like everyone else, were to work with their hands and provide for their own needs.
John B. Polhill, professor of New Testament interpretation and Associate Dean for the School of Theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, has written:
In a real sense he [Paul] ended as he had begun (vv.18-21), pointing to his own deportment in ministry as an example for them to emulate. The matter in question was the leaders' relationship to material goods. Paul's detachment from material gain is well-documented in his epistles. He never used his ministry as a "mask to cover up greed" (2 Thessalonians 2:5). At Corinth he supported himself with his own hands (Acts 18:2f.; cf. 1 Corinthians 4:12; 9:12,15; 2 Corinthians 11:7; 12:13). The same was true at Thessalonica (1 Thessalonians 2:9; 2 Thessalonians 3:7-8). Verse 34 [Acts 20] would indicate that he followed the same pattern of self-support at Ephesus. In his epistles Paul exhorted his Christian readers to follow his example and work with their own hands, not being dependent on others (1 Thessalonians 4:11; 2 Thessalonians 3:9). In the Miletus speech Paul gave the additional incentive that such hard work put one in the position to help the weak. In his epistles he showed a similar concern that Christians help the weak and needy, that they share in one another's burdens (cf. Romans 15:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:14; Ephesians 4:28; Galatians 6:2). Greed is a universal human problem, and church leaders are not exempt (cf. the exhortation in v.28 for church leaders to "watch yourselves"). That avarice among church leaders was a real problem in Asia Minor seems to be attested by the Pastoral Epistles, in which Paul insisted that a major qualification for church leaders should be their detachment from the love of money (1 Timothy 3:3,8; Titus 1:7,11) ..."It is more blessed to give than to receive." Paul applied this rule to the specific problem of avarice among church leaders. The minister is to be a servant, a giver and not a taker. Acquisitiveness has been the downfall for many a servant of God. This word of the Lord as applied by Paul is sound ministerial advice. The one who leads the flock of God should focus on the needs of others, be more concerned with giving than with acquiring. Paul had begun his address by listing the qualities of his own ministry as an example for the Ephesian leaders to follow. He concluded with a final quality he had sought to model. Perhaps he held it off to the end because he saw it as the most essential of all for a legitimate ministry (The New American Commentary: Acts (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press,1992] pp.429-430).
The late F.F. Bruce, once considered the world's foremost New Testament scholar, writes:
Returning once more to the example which he had set them, he reminds them finally that those who take care of the people of God must do so without thought of material reward. As Samuel called all Israel to witness when he was about to lay down his office as judge (1 Samuel 12:3), so Paul calls the Ephesian elders to witness that all the time he spent with them he coveted nothing that was not his; on the contrary, he did not even avail himself of his right to be maintained by those whose spiritual welfare he cared, but earned his living--and that of his colleagues--by his own labors: "these hands," he said (inevitably with the attendant gesticulation), "ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me" (v.34). Let those to whom he was speaking likewise labor and thus support not only themselves but others as well--the sick in particular (The New International Commentary on the New Testament: Acts [Grand Rapids: Wm.B. Eerdmans, 1986] p.418).
Simon J. Kistemaker, who served for many years as professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary, states:
In his [Paul] letters he discloses that he worked night and day with his own hands to support himself, so that no one would ever be able to accuse him of depending on the hearers of the Gospel for his material needs (compare 1 Samuel 12:3). He refused to be a burden to anyone in the churches he established. By performing manual labor, he provided for his financial needs. Paul received gifts from the believers in Philippi, as he himself reveals (Philippians 2:25; 4:16-18), yet he declares that he did not solicit those gifts... The Ephesian elders had observed Paul's ministry and physical work during his three-year stay. They were able to testify that he had never exploited anyone (2 Corinthians 7:2), but had always set an example of diligence and self-sufficiency, in the good sense of the word. He was a model to the believers and taught the rule: "If you will not work, you shall not eat" (2 Thessalonians 3:10)... It appears that Paul generated sufficient income to support not only himself but even his companions... In every respect, says Paul to the elders of Ephesus, I taught you to work hard and with your earnings to help the weak... He exhorts them to follow his example and to labor hard (New Testament Commentary: Acts [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1990] pp.737,740).
Commenting on Acts 20:33-35, Roland Allen, author of the classic work, Missionary Methods: St. Paul's or Ours? (Grand Rapids: Wm.B. Eerdmans, 1962), notes:
When I wrote this book I had not observed that in addressing the elders of Ephesus, St. Paul definitely directs them to follow his example and to support themselves (Acts 20:34-35). The right to support is always referred to wandering evangelists and prophets, not to settled local clergy (see Matthew 10:10; Luke 10:7; 1 Corinthians 9:1-14) with the doubtful exceptions of Galatians 6:6 and 1 Timothy 5:17-18, and even if those passages do refer to money gifts, they certainly do not contemplate fixed salaries which were an abomination in the eyes of the early Christians (p.50).
4. Some have appealed to Paul's words in Galatians 6:6 ("And let the one who is taught the word share all good things with him who teaches") as justification for pastoral remuneration. But this is far from likely for the following reasons:
A. It is less than certain that the phrase "him who teaches" refers exclusively to pastors, but may include local or itinerant teachers. The reader should also be reminded that pastors were not the only ones who corporately taught within the local assembly (Acts 13:1; 15:35; Romans 12:7; 1 Corinthians 12:29; 14:26; 1 Peter 4:10-11). Thus, if we are going to make Galatians 6:6 denote a full-time salary for pastors, we must also include those who are teachers as well. But how many churches are willing to do this?
B. Our text urges us to "share all good things," which is a far cry from a full-time salaried position (coupled with medical insurance and a 401K retirement plan!). To "share" something with someone is not necessarily the same as continually providing them with a stipend. We remind the reader that most of the early churches were extremely poor and, therefore, it is unlikely that Paul would have commanded them to raise full-time support for one or even all of their elders.
C. The phrase "all good things" could possibly refer to periodic gifts, food, or other items by which the teacher could be benefited. To extract from this text, then, the notion of salaried pastors is a mere assumption with no exegetical warrant from either the words or surrounding context. The Lutheran commentator, R.C.H. Lenski, finds no support for this view either (although he takes Paul's words to mean "sharing in all good spiritual things"):
This is just about the opposite of the common view [i.e., salaried teachers]. In addition to the context and the meaning of the words themselves one must note that when Paul writes about the one instructing, the Galatians would at once think of their first and greatest instructor together with his assistant who had twice been in their midst. Could Paul tell the Galatians in this letter that they owed material contributions to him and to his helpers? Could he do such a thing with no further word of explanation? Paul never took money for his work. When he speaks of this subject in 1 Corinthians 9 he does so with the fullest and clearest explanation. See the same thought in 2 Corinthians 11:7-12, which should be read in its connection with 1 Corinthians 9. We ought also not to forget the Judaizers who also came as teachers, on whose greediness 2 Corinthians 11:20 enlightens us. When such greedy fellows were working in Galatia, Paul could scarcely write the Galatians to share "in all things" (material) with their teachers. Aside from the implication involving himself, such an admonition would reflect on the true teachers in Galatia and suggest that they were also men who were to be paid... Pay for these teachers? There is no reason for mentioning it in this epistle. The efforts to have what Paul now says support the idea that teachers are to be duly rewarded show that this conception is untenable. Paul and his assistants took no such reward. Sowing for the flesh and sowing for the spirit deal with a subject that is far greater, namely with the desire for all good spiritual things in which the Galatians should seek to share (Commentary on Saint Paul's Epistle to the Galatians [Minneapolis, MN: Augsburg Publishing House, 1961] pp. 303-304).
Following the same basic interpretation as Lenski, Steve Atkerson and Eric Svendsen have written:
On a surface level, it must be pointed out that "all good things" does not necessarily mean money. It could be gifts, food, assistance with the teacher's work, etc. On a deeper level, the context makes it clear that money, gifts, or any other material thing is really not what is in view. In this passage, Paul tells the spiritually mature to restore those who have fallen (v.1), based on the principle that we should bear each other's burdens (v.2). In the process, the spiritually mature should not think that they are superior to the fallen ones, or that they are immune to the same sin (vv.3-4). Instead, they should "watch" themselves (v.1) and continue to "carry" their own load of spiritual responsibility, while letting the fallen ones progress at their own level (v.5). In the same line of thought, Paul then tells the fallen ones (those who are being counseled--i.e., those who are being "instructed in the word") that they should share with their "instructor" any progress they have made (i.e., "all good things") (The Practice of the Early Church: A Theological Workbook [Revised] [Atlanta, GA: New Testament Restoration Foundation, 1995] p.42).
Which ever view one prefers (whether periodic gifts or in sharing all good spiritual things), it still remains difficult to see any exegetical warrant in Galatians 6:6 for a full-time pastor's salary.
5. The words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:14 ("those who preach the Gospel should receive their living from the Gospel") is another frequently cited text in support of salaried pastors. But this interpretation is highly dubious, as Atkerson and Svendsen point out:
1 Corinthians 9 does not refer to pastors, elders, or any other leader normally associated with today's church. Instead it refers to "apostles" (those who are sent out), roughly equivalent to today's missionary. We are to financially support "those who proclaim the Gospel" because of the nature of their work. The fundamental difference between the work of an elder (who is not financially supported) and the work of an apostle (who is financially supported) is that the apostle must uproot and travel from location to location. His stay is temporary; consequently, his odds for gaining employment at each location are slim. He would therefore need financial assistance to do the work for which he was sent. The elder, on the other hand, is stationed at one location. His stay is permanent... Even the apostles did not make their living from the church. The passage in question simply means that the need of the apostle for food, shelter, and clothing were to be met by the church (Matthew 10:9-11 was no doubt the pattern that the early church used for apostles). There was no salary involved (The Practice of the Early Church, pp.41-42).
6. Perhaps the strongest passage for paid pastors is 1 Timothy 5:17 ("Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, 'You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,' and 'The laborer is worthy of his wages'"). But, again, this is most unlikely due to the following considerations:
A. It is less than probable that the Ephesian church could have supported a full-time pastor, let alone a plurality of pastors which were already appointed by the time Paul wrote this epistle. 1 Timothy 5:17 indicates that all of the elders who rule well were to receive "double honor" (supposedly full-time pay), and not merely one man (such as the "senior pastor"). Are we to really believe that Paul wanted all of them on some kind of "payroll"? How many churches even do this in our day?
B. Paul had previously established a pattern or model for elders which meant working hard with one's hands and, thus, being in a position to help others (Acts 20:33-35). It seems hard to believe that he would have completely violated that model by now demanding that all the churches muster a full-time salary for each of their elders.
C. It is quite possible that 1 Timothy 5:17 has nothing to do with a salary or wage. Once again, Atkerson and Svendsen write:
The word "honor" in this verse (time in the Greek) means just what it is translated as--honor, not pay (unless we want to conclude that we should give some elders "double pay"!). If Paul had intended to teach that elders are to be paid, he could have used the Greek word misthos, which means "wages" (which he used in v.18). In v.18, Paul simply says that, just as an ox deserves to eat because of his work, and just as a worker deserves to be paid because of his work, so an elder deserves honor because of his work (v.19 gives an example of such honor--see also 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13). This same word (time) is used in 1 Timothy 6:1; are slaves to "pay" their masters? (The Practice of the Early Church, p.42).
In his treatment of this same passage, Lenski adds these insightful comments:
It is generally assumed that the elders were paid for their services in the apostolic churches. We are convinced that this assumption is not tenable. The probability is that none of them were paid. The elders of the synagogues were not paid or salaried. Each synagogue had a number of elders, too many to have a payroll that would be large enough to support them. The apostolic congregations imitated the synagogue in this respect. Our passage speaks of "twofold honor," not of twofold financial pay or salary. Paul's two quotations support the injunction relating to according due honor to diligent elders; such honor is to be their reward just as the ox treading out grain is accorded the privilege of eating as he tramped along, just as the worker is accorded his pay. The tertium of the analogy lies in the worthiness and not in the identity of what the three are worthy of: the elders worthy of what naturally should go with their office--honor; the ox worthy of what naturally goes with the task for which he is employed--wisps of grain; the workman worthy of what naturally goes with his work--pay for his work (Commentary on Saint Paul's Epistles to Timothy [Minneapolis, MN: Augsburg Publishing House, 1937] p.683).
D. If our churches truly implemented New Testament patterns of ministry, one wonders whether there would be any real need to support one, full-time pastor? If the local church had a functioning priesthood (as opposed to the passive, spectator event that is the mark of most churches) and an equally shared eldership, there simply would not be the urgency or necessity to hire someone on a full-time basis. This is because (1) leadership responsibilities would be shared; (2) one man and his gifts would not become the focal-point of the meeting; (3) corporate teaching would be shared and not left to one sole pastor; and (4) each member would actively participate and contribute to the meeting.
E. Even if, for the sake of argument, Paul refers to some form of monetary assistance, he probably intended elders to be periodically compensated for their work and not necessarily a permanent, full-time wage.
In spite of what has already been noted, we are not against any congregation which chooses, in unique circumstances, to financially support a gifted leader (perhaps so that he might devote more time to writing or teaching; or in assisting newly planted churches; or in instructing newly appointed elders, etc.). We believe, however, that such instances are intended to be the exception, not the norm.
Either way, we would highly recommend that pastors secure an additional skill or trade in the event that a congregation's financial assistance runs out (or even if he gets terminated from his church!). Is this not the better of wisdom?
The sad truth is that most church boards never bother to consider how much money could be saved for missionary support, the poor, and literature used to advance the furtherance of the Gospel, if they did not have to remunerate a full-time pastor. We conclude our study with the advice of Steve Atkerson:
Requiring elders to be self-supporting would free large sums of money currently designated for professional pastors to be used instead in support of missionaries or to help the poor. It would also place a pastor's motives above reproach in an era of religious shysters who purposely fleece the flock in order to finance their exorbitant lifestyles (Ezekiel 34:1-6). In addition, creating a class of salaried ministers tends to elevate them above the average believer and fosters an artificial laity/clergy distinction. Finally, salesmen tend to be extra nice toward those to whom they hope to sell something. Hiring a career clergyman puts him in a similar salesman-customer relationship, and this, no doubt to some degree, affects his dealings with significant contributors (money talks) [ed. Steve Atkerson] (Toward A House Church Theology [Atlanta, GA: New Testament Restoration Foundation, 1996] p.87).
"I have coveted no one's silver or gold or clothes. You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my own needs and to the men who were with me. In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive'"
(Acts 20:33-35)
"For you recall, brethren, our labor and hardship, how working night and day so as not to be a burden to any of you, we proclaimed to you the Gospel of God
(1 Thessalonians 2:9)
</H3>
 
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Nadiine

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seekthetruth909 said:
Actually the word pastor is only mentioned once in the New Testament and not in relation to this verse.Paul is talking about apostles in this verse not pastors.
1 Corinthians 9 The Rights of an Apostle

Here is an interesting article on the subject.

In reading it, I actually don't accept this at all :)

Um, Eph 4:11 denotes the word "pastor".. 1 Tim. uses "elder" & Bishops.

Some Problems:
It again uses Paul as some direct example... Paul was not any "regular" at any church that he visited during his many travels - he was in a GUEST "missionary" (Apostle) position.

It's about equivalent to having Billy Graham come to visit your church for a few mos. & claim that since Billy Graham (who's visiting) isn't opting to TAKE SALARY at our church, then OUR PASTOR SHOULDN'T EITHER.

This verse is clear:
Timothy 5:17-18 "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, 'YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,' and 'The laborer is worthy of his wages."

In his epistles Paul exhorted his Christian readers to follow his example and work with their own hands, not being dependent on others (1 Thessalonians 4:11; 2 Thessalonians 3:9).
He refused to be a burden to anyone in the churches he established. By performing manual labor, he provided for his financial needs. Paul received gifts from the believers in Philippi, as he himself reveals (Philippians 2:25; 4:16-18), yet he declares that he did not solicit those gifts... The Ephesian elders had observed Paul's ministry and physical work during his three-year stay. They were able to testify that he had never exploited anyone (

So, because Paul manually worked, PASTORS MUST WORK MANUALLY W/ THEIR HANDS? If taken literally as this article suggests, no pastor can take any job that isn't manual.
This is a type of labor:
1 Thes. 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope...

The CONTEXT at the tale end of 1 Thes. 3, is the entire church - this message is given to the church corporately as members. THIS IS NO WAY NEGATES PASTORAL WAGES by any stretch because Paul gives separate instruction for Elder's wages.
Paul is instructing the church in how to occupy time till Christ returns. This illegitimately ties in a theory that is just not taught directly for Elders.

Paul also circumsized Timothy (Acts 16), are we to "model" that literal & elective example as well? :eek:
Paul didn't HAVE to circumsize Timothy (not under law), he ELECTED to - due to their Jewish audience to better preach the gospel.
This directly serves my point - what Paul ELECTS to do, doesn't automatically impose itself on all others.

Pastors can elect to take salary or not (my prev. posts go into how small churches grow which naturally place more responsibility and duty to a pastor where they need to devote more time to the ministry).

In addition, creating a class of salaried ministers tends to elevate them above the average believer and fosters an artificial laity/clergy distinction

Finally, salesmen tend to be extra nice toward those to whom they hope to sell something. Hiring a career clergyman puts him in a similar salesman-customer relationship
It then ends with this [choice verse of implication to the arguments above:
"I have coveted no one's silver or gold or clothes

The entire ending points are LUDICROUS as support for this case!
1)
1 Tim. 5 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor.

POSITIONALLY, THEY ARE ELEVATED! They hold a seat of authority! (it's called spiritual authority).

2) But ANYONE gaining ANY salary or income has this temptation to please those paying them! Why are Pastors being singled out?
And why is it being assumed that they cannot HANDLE this "temptation" and WILL FALL into sin of pride & partiality??? This assertion gives them absolutely NO benefit of any doubt that they won't sin.

POSSIBILITY of sin and Tempation of sin is NOT reason to reject salary. ANYONE can covet, be greedy, love money... That would mean it applies to ALL OF US in some way or another as Christians.
This Point is especially LUDICROUS and condemning; as if Pastors are helpless to falling into sins of pride, greed, covetousness & partiality.

I don't accept this article for quite a few reasons...
It creates serious doctrinal problems in the way it [loosely] applies scripture teachings - when used consistently, ALL Christians are in some big trouble & under heavy restriction.

It uses unfair and flawed assessements, and it draws far too many illegitimate and even broad conclusions - forcing them to FIT INTO OTHER CONTEXTS that they don't apply to (implication & reading more in than what's there).

Most importantly, Paul gives separate and specific instruction for Pastoral/Elder wages (salary) elsewhere.
This automatically DISCLUDES any teachings to the contrary.
I do appreciate your input. :angel:
 
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SamsDad101

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Utah Knight said:
I do not pay tithe either because we are to give to Ceaser what belongs to him. In otherwords we give the govenment what is theirs. Give to God what belongs to him wich IMO means we are to give God our life.
It's this simple.

You want to know where a man's passions lie? Follow the receipts.

Some people like to put their heads in the sand, and pretend that today's church somehow, miraculously, supports itself. I know better.

My 10 month old son will learn about Christ from me and his mom, by example and by other means, but more than likely he will find his fellowship and actually accept the Lord in a "church building", amongst his peers, where he's comfortable to make a decision for Christ for himself, away from any familial pressure.. And that's priceless. So there's no question for me, as to whether or not I should tithe. And tithing doesn't mean you're "under the law". Absurd. By that criteria anyone who prays or fasts on a regular basis is "under the law" as well. I tithe because the Lord asked me to, and because it's my pleasure.

I hear the "under the law" argument most often when it comes to questions of tithes and offerings. I don't think it's coincidental.

That being said, I don't mean to judge anybody. The most important thing is that you have the Lord, and the Lord has you, and that you (and me) are open and honest in our relationship w/ Him. I can't judge anybody's heart, nor can anyone else on this board...I'm just glad we have a forum like this where we can discuss and debate these issues openly. Very cool.
 
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Breaking Babylon

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I would only like to say that the 10% tithe is an Old Testament law, that we are no longer bound by. Jesus death did away with the Mosaic Law.

The New Testaments stance on giving is simply 'as you have prospered'. If you don't have it to give, don't feel obliged to, but by all means if you CAN give for the benefit and growth of your church and minister, do - and expect blessings in return. God smiles upon charity. :)

Christ's Peace.
 
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Hi, was just browsing when i saw this thread, would just like to add something to the discussion, i agree that the old covenant example was 10%, but i also agree that that is not the case in the new covenant anymore. The way i understand it is that as Jesus says in all gospels "if you loose your life (spiritualiy) for my sake you will gain it," I believe that what this teaches is that we no longer live for ourselves to gratify the desires of the flesh but we live with our "life hid in christ" everything we are and have is his but he calls us to be good stewards of them (money time etc), therefore if we take this attitude then our money isnt our own it is Gods but we are stewards of it, so its ours to do with as we choose, the question then becomes will you spend that money on furthering Gods name or on yourself. but we should always remember that we will one day stand before God giving an account of our lives (will what we did produce precious metals or straw). One final point God knows that we have to buy food pay the rent or mortgage etc but it is what we do with our money after that, i know a christian charity that can publish and send a bible to china for 2 pounds or if you give a certain ammount then they can send that to a native pastor, in a poor area, to support his family while he goes out and spreads Gods word, that seems like good stewarding to me :).
God bless.
 
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wjones842005

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As controversial as this subject is, I'm glad that it is here, so the truth can be revealed. In my last church, the tithe was pushed BIG TIME. Every Sunday and Wednesday, they would put on the projector screens the verses from Leviticus telling about the tithe, then the passage from the new testament saying " The LORD loves a cheerful giver ". To me, however, these two verses would be contradictiary. I have no hard feelings toward my old church, or to any other that has the same belief, but IMO this shouldn't be tought as dogma knowing that there is credible evidence in the new testament saying otherwise. I was full aware of these teachings, but I, as well as countless others trusted in the teaching of our respective churches. I am full aware of the fact that the church lives on donations only, and I will gladly give to any good cause, but my former church was located in a relatively poor community. Why would one bind a group of people to something knowing that it can have dire consequences for their personal lives? Its great to give, and everyone should, and letting go of one's money is a good way to separate yourself from your worldly possessions (as some churches who require the tithe use as a reason), but if we have to pay the tithe, alot more questions come to mind. I don't mean to open pandora's box, but if we have to give money against our will, does the Lord really love a cheerful giver, knowing some may be giving money that will buy their food? If we have to pay the tithe, is our salvation for sale? If we have to pay the tithe, that means it is law, so if we don't pay the tithe, aren't we sinning? Why would God hinge our relationship with Him on something we have little control over? :scratch:
 
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