Upon this rock

[laternonjuror]

The Rock is Peter's confession. Not Peter Himself (?!) Whoever told you that gave bad info

Who .Told us?
Why S.Augustine of Hippo did, was he wrong?
"And I say unto thee, thou art Peter;
because I the Rock, thou the stone,
for not from the stone is the Rock
But from the Rock is the stone;

But not from Christian is Christ,
But from Christ is Christian;

And upon this Rock will I build my Church;
Not upon the stone which thou art,
But upon the Rock which thou hast confessed.

Augustine of Hippo. Taken from his final reflections


Neither is he the only Early Father to say this!

A Roman Scholar named Lanoy, a Jesuit, addressed the problem of numbers and found that 17 Early Fathers in favour of S.Peter being the Rock!
Whilst 44 for Matt 16, meaning S.Peter's Confession.
16 for Christ being the Rock, of which obviously Augustine was one.
With eight fathers believing all apostlesfor the Rock!






.

 

[laternonjuror]

OK,...
So I gather either the citing of ECFs in general has just been implicitly indicted to a remarkably notable degree, or did I just imagine that? Did you sense some air being let out of the legend of the mighty ECF and their catholicity?
Reminds me of the truck that got stuck under a bridge and some little girl figured it out and told the driver to let some air out of his tires... lol

The new Roman Church at Trent in 1564, ordered all Romanists to accept scriptures as they were found and that having read them they were to be understood through the lens, as it were of the Early Fathers!

 

[bbbbbbb]

The new Roman Church at Trent in 1564, ordered all Romanists to accept scriptures as they were found and that having read them they were to be understood through the lens, as it were of the Early Fathers!

The question, of course, is where the scriptures "were found". Various denominations at that time had found varying canons of scripture and had determined them to be the inspired Word of God. All denominations were in agreement regarding the 66 books, but many included additional books. The Catholic Church (or new Roman Church as you say) decided to set itself apart by including the accepted 66-book canon and the set of books which is commonly known as the Deuterocanonical Books.

 

[Root of Jesse]

OK,...
So I gather either the citing of ECFs in general has just been implicitly indicted to a remarkably notable degree, or did I just imagine that? Did you sense some air being let out of the legend of the mighty ECF and their catholicity?
Reminds me of the truck that got stuck under a bridge and some little girl figured it out and told the driver to let some air out of his tires... lol

The ECFs did not have the authority to create or dismiss doctrine. They could, as anyone, comment. But, as is true for any Catholic, if you dissent from what the Catholic Church believes or teaches, you're out of communion. Even those with "Saint" in front of their name have been wrong at times. They are not infallible.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The ECFs did not have the authority to create or dismiss doctrine. They could, as anyone, comment. But, as is true for any Catholic, if you dissent from what the Catholic Church believes or teaches, you're out of communion. Even those with "Saint" in front of their name have been wrong at times. They are not infallible.

Who did create or dismiss Catholic doctrine?

 

[Root of Jesse]

The pope and Magisterium, usually in Church Councils. But once created, they could not dismiss anything.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The pope and Magisterium, usually in Church Councils. But once created, they could not dismiss anything.

ok, I wasn't sure what a Magisterium was..

 

[Root of Jesse]

ok, I wasn't sure what a Magisterium was..

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, given by Christ. It consists of the bishops who are in communion with the Pope.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The pope and Magisterium, usually in Church Councils. But once created, they could not dismiss anything.

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, given by Christ. It consists of the bishops who are in communion with the Pope.

The problem I would have with that is the irreversable part, kinda like a king's edict but more like a senate passing laws that cannot be changed.. I don't think Christ gave that authority to anyone myself...but that's my opinion. I can't think of a biblical equivalant except perhaps Darius.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The problem I would have with that is the irreversable part, kinda like a king's edict but more like a senate passing laws that cannot be changed.. I don't think Christ gave that authority to anyone myself...but that's my opinion. I can't think of a biblical equivalant except perhaps Darius.

It's not about laws. What about the phrase to Peter, after "Upon this rock..." Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It's not about laws. What about the phrase to Peter, after "Upon this rock..." Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

How about thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.....the reverse from what your saying

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Paul bound someone and handed them over to satan in Corinthians and loosed again 9For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ,11so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.

but it doesn't seem the same thing..

sorry, a little testy today also, too much going on

 

[Root of Jesse]

How about thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.....the reverse from what your saying

That's where the Holy Spirit comes in. You folks focus on one part and don't look at the entire thing organicly. All our doctrine is inspired, because our bishops are ordained by the Holy Spirit, and because of the Holy Spirit, cannot err in matters of faith and morals, where they have authority.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

That's where the Holy Spirit comes in. You folks focus on one part and don't look at the entire thing organicly. All our doctrine is inspired, because our bishops are ordained by the Holy Spirit, and because of the Holy Spirit, cannot err in matters of faith and morals, where they have authority.

hmnn, I hope you test it all against the word of God because you will be accountable w/o your bishops. That's what us folks believe so we are hesitant to accept others say so on no evidence.

 

[Root of Jesse]

hmnn, I hope you test it all against the word of God because you will be accountable w/o your bishops. That's what us folks believe so we are hesitant to accept others say so on no evidence.

Of course, but the Holy Spirit's guidance is the Word of God. See Acts 15, the HS guidance helped with the circumcision decision. It's the same with all our doctrines.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Of course, but the Holy Spirit's guidance is the Word of God. See Acts 15, the HS guidance helped with the circumcision decision. It's the same with all our doctrines.

The Holy Spirit would bring to mind the word's in the OT about a circumcised heart that the disciples would have known well from Deut 10 and 30. If you see your doctrine in the bible you folk have not shown it.

 

[Rick Otto]

The new Roman Church at Trent in 1564, ordered all Romanists to accept scriptures as they were found and that having read them they were to be understood through the lens, as it were of the Early Fathers!

Some want to have it both ways.
I thought their authority had been enshrined, as I have so often seen it appealed to.

 

[laternonjuror]

The question, of course, is where the scriptures "were found". Various denominations at that time had found varying canons of scripture and had determined them to be the inspired Word of God. All denominations were in agreement regarding the 66 books, but many included additional books. The Catholic Church (or new Roman Church as you say) decided to set itself apart by including the accepted 66-book canon and the set of books which is commonly known as the Deuterocanonical Books.

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, given by Christ. It consists of the bishops who are in communion with the Pope.

The Magisterium consists of the Traditional Bench of orthodox Bishops, throughout the world, who hold to the Revelation of Christ, to the Holy saints,(Jude) whose findings are recorded in Scripture and which are interpreted by the Holy fathers in Council.
Apart from being a Catholic Bishop, the pope doesn't enter the equasion.

 

[Rick Otto]

The Magisterium consists of the Traditional Bench of orthodox Bishops, throughout the world, who hold to the Revelation of Christ, to the Holy saints,(Jude) whose findings are recorded in Scripture and which are interpreted by the Holy fathers in Council.
Apart from being a Catholic Bishop, the pope doesn't enter the equasion.

So apart from him being a part of the equation, he doesn't enter the equation.
I totally get that.

 

[laternonjuror]

So apart from him being a part of the equation, he doesn't enter the equation.
I totally get that.

When you think of the Bishop of Rome's claim of superiority over theCouncils?
Further, remember his claims to Infallibility and Jurisdiction .