Upon this rock

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Where do you get that that's what I said? Although we're all separated from the Father...I said that he was separated from his father as our separated bretheren are from the Church.

The way to the Father is thru Christ that is the head of the church. Therefore anyone who is a member of Christ is connected to the Father and because of Christ to each other. That is the only brethern there is.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The way to the Father is thru Christ that is the head of the church. Therefore anyone who is a member of Christ is connected to the Father and because of Christ to each other. That is the only brethern there is.

The way to the Father, correct. But we're still not connected. We're seeking the Father. We are brothers in Christ, though.

 

[Winepress777]

Regarding Matthew 16:18-19

Albion, I have always found Protestant assertions that somehow the "rock" that Jesus builds the church on is Peter's faith, and other logical backflips, to be rediculous. Anything other than the "rock" referring to Peter is obviously taking the verse out of context. Don't you agree? And if so, how else do you interpret this verse other than Jesus making Peter the authority of the Church?

The Rock is Peter's confession. Not Peter Himself (?!) Whoever told you that gave bad info

(Mat 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

The only thing the Church is built upon is confession of Jesus;

(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus is the Rock or "stone" upon which we are built;


1Co_10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


1Pe_2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

It would be a grave mistake to substitute Peter for Christ as the Rock. I am founded upon Christ with the same confession as Peter. That confession is Jesus, "The Rock".

Peace

 

[Meowzltov]

The best I'll grant you is the Roman Catholic Church.

It no longer has a stigma, so it's cool. But it's still slang. This began when someone actually corrected someone else for using the correct term, the Catholic Church. That demanded a reply.

 

[Meowzltov]

The Rock is Peter's confession. Not Peter Himself (?!) Whoever told you that gave bad info

All of my friends and family were telling me that the rock was Peter's faith. I disagreed simply because of the grammatical context.

The rock later in the sentence refers to the rock earlier in the sentence. It's that obvious.

 

[Berean777]

...

 

[prodromos]

The rock later in the sentence refers to the rock earlier in the sentence. It's that obvious.

Not to the Church Fathers.

 

[Berean777]

...

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The way to the Father, correct. But we're still not connected. We're seeking the Father. We are brothers in Christ, though.

So are you saying that the second Adam went into the world like the first Adam followed after Eve, and is in the process of bringing her back to the Father?

 

[Rick Otto]

Rick, the problem is that a word, or group of words, which once was benign, became a slur at the reformation. Just as many don't like the term "Protestant", we don't like the reference Roman Church. But it is very true that the Church of Rome = the diocese of Rome = the Church at Rome. Just like the Archdiocese of New York could be referred to as the Church at New York or the Church of New York.
Regarding Protestant, I don't know any other way to refer to all those non-Catholic Christians...do you have anything?

Brother.

 

[Rick Otto]

Yes, I know. We call them separated bretheren, as was the Prodigal Son. The other difference is that Saint Augustine is here discussing the Donatist heresy – those ancient schismatics who in fact possessed all the sacraments validly. Since Martin Luther, John Calvin, et al. formally rejected transubstantiation, Eucharistic sacrifice, and the sacerdotal priesthood, Protestants do not possess a valid Eucharist since they have denied its essence and apostolic succession.
Yes, that, too.

I'm sure you're completely comfortable that I consider yours invalid because of formally adopting transubstantiation, fantasizing its essence, and re-defining apostolic succession.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Rock is Peter's confession. Not Peter Himself (?!) Whoever told you that gave bad info

(Mat 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

The only thing the Church is built upon is confession of Jesus;

(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus is the Rock or "stone" upon which we are built;


1Co_10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


1Pe_2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

It would be a grave mistake to substitute Peter for Christ as the Rock. I am founded upon Christ with the same confession as Peter. That confession is Jesus, "The Rock".

Peace

I wonder why you want to limit the Gospel to only one meaning? Why can't it be both?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I'm sure you're completely comfortable that I consider yours invalid because of formally adopting transubstantiation, fantasizing its essence, and re-defining apostolic succession.

I'm comfortable that you feel that way, brother, but I can also believe you're wrong in your belief.

 

[Standing Up]

Not to the Church Fathers.

Chrysostom thought it the confession that mattered.

3. What then saith Christ? “Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas.”20912091 Matt. xvi. 17, 18; see John i. 42.“Thus since thou hast proclaimed my Father, I too name him that begat thee;” all but saying, “As thou art son of Jonas, even so am I of my Father.” Else it were superfluous to say, “Thou art Son of Jonas;” but since he had said, “Son of God,” to point out that He is so Son of God, as the other son of Jonas, of the same substance with Him that begat Him, therefore He added this, “And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;”20922092 Matt. xvi. 18.that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. “And the gates of hell20932093 [R.V., “Hades.”]shall not prevail against it.” “And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because thou art shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified.”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html

 

[Root of Jesse]

Chrysostom thought it the confession that mattered.

3. What then saith Christ? “Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas.”20912091 Matt. xvi. 17, 18; see John i. 42.“Thus since thou hast proclaimed my Father, I too name him that begat thee;” all but saying, “As thou art son of Jonas, even so am I of my Father.” Else it were superfluous to say, “Thou art Son of Jonas;” but since he had said, “Son of God,” to point out that He is so Son of God, as the other son of Jonas, of the same substance with Him that begat Him, therefore He added this, “And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;”20922092 Matt. xvi. 18.that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. “And the gates of hell20932093 [R.V., “Hades.”]shall not prevail against it.” “And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because thou art shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified.”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html

You realize that none of them had the gift of infallibility? So while they may have thought one thing, and it's good to know what they thought, and how they put it all together, they're not considered authoritative, unless they agree with the doctrine of the Church.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm comfortable that you feel that way, brother, but I can also believe you're wrong in your belief.

That's freedom. Gotta love it.
Would you like a piece of Apple pie?

 

[Rick Otto]

Chrysostom thought it the confession that mattered.

3. What then saith Christ? “Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas.”20912091 Matt. xvi. 17, 18; see John i. 42.“Thus since thou hast proclaimed my Father, I too name him that begat thee;” all but saying, “As thou art son of Jonas, even so am I of my Father.” Else it were superfluous to say, “Thou art Son of Jonas;” but since he had said, “Son of God,” to point out that He is so Son of God, as the other son of Jonas, of the same substance with Him that begat Him, therefore He added this, “And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;”20922092 Matt. xvi. 18.that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. “And the gates of hell20932093 [R.V., “Hades.”]shall not prevail against it.” “And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because thou art shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified.”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html

OK,...
So I gather either the citing of ECFs in general has just been implicitly indicted to a remarkably notable degree, or did I just imagine that? Did you sense some air being let out of the legend of the mighty ECF and their catholicity?
Reminds me of the truck that got stuck under a bridge and some little girl figured it out and told the driver to let some air out of his tires... lol

 

[Rick Otto]

All of my friends and family were telling me that the rock was Peter's faith. I disagreed simply because of the grammatical context.

The rock later in the sentence refers to the rock earlier in the sentence. It's that obvious.

Mhmm.

 

[Standing Up]

OK,...
So I gather either the citing of ECFs in general has just been implicitly indicted to a remarkably notable degree, or did I just imagine that? Did you sense some air being let out of the legend of the mighty ECF and their catholicity?
Reminds me of the truck that got stuck under a bridge and some little girl figured it out and told the driver to let some air out of his tires... lol

It's a great argument, right? Find folks who disagree with your POV and call them wrong because they're wrong. Find folks who agree with your POV and call them right because they're right.

Sure, pass the pie please.

 

[prodromos]

It isn't often I find myself on the same side as Rick Otto and Standing Up, so I'm definitely up for some of that pie