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Updating The Theory of the Earth

amanuensis63

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Because we have increased in acceleration since the dinosaurs - our clocks have slowed - our rulers have shrunk. They aged at a rate completely separate from our time - as did the rocks decay at a completely different rate. You can not use CLOCKS THAT TICK AT TODAY'S RATE and rulers THAT ARE NOW SHORTER - to measure the time that has passed. You must speed up your clocks as you go backwards in time - exponentially since the acceleration of the universe began at a rate faster than c.

So by this metric since everything is always changing then can we understand anything? The acceleration due to gravity 9.8m/s^2 is now different according to your hypothesis than it was when I was in high school yet it will still be measured exactly the same because all the rulers will be smaller etc, etc. Yet it will somehow be different?

What, ultimately, is your suggestion as to the "age" of a dinosaur? In what frame are you referencing this age? And what will it matter?

Again - what does YEC have to do with anything since their interpretation is just as flawed?

Oh, sorry, I thought maybe this was an attempt to call into question our dating of the earth in preference to something much shorter. It appears now that you are simply interested in ensuring that we cannot claim any knowledge of anything because everything is changing while not being visibly changed within this frame.

Got it.

It measures 4.6GA (today's time) because you won't adjust your clocks to run faster as you go backwards in time in a universe you claim is accelerating at an increasing rate - even if you know clocks slow under acceleration - and now refuse to apply your own beliefs to the problem at hand.

What, exactly, is the "problem at hand"? Can you tell me what a rock that dates at 4.5GA would ACTUALLY date when done "properly"?

Obviously this should be a simple matter for your calculations. Can you show us a graph of how the age of a rock that is 4.5GA would change?

Thanks!
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Because we have increased in acceleration since the dinosaurs - our clocks have slowed - our rulers have shrunk. They aged at a rate completely separate from our time - as did the rocks decay at a completely different rate. You can not use CLOCKS THAT TICK AT TODAY'S RATE and rulers THAT ARE NOW SHORTER - to measure the time that has passed. You must speed up your clocks as you go backwards in time - exponentially since the acceleration of the universe began at a rate faster than c.

So it is your contention that the earth has experienced 4+ billion years of time passing in relation to other parts of the universe that have experienced much less time passing? Is that your belief?

And you attribute this to differing states of motion? What body was moving differently, and what was the nature of that differing motion?
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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So by this metric since everything is always changing then can we understand anything? The acceleration due to gravity 9.8m/s^2 is now different according to your hypothesis than it was when I was in high school yet it will still be measured exactly the same because all the rulers will be smaller etc, etc. Yet it will somehow be different?

What, ultimately, is your suggestion as to the "age" of a dinosaur? In what frame are you referencing this age? And what will it matter?



Oh, sorry, I thought maybe this was an attempt to call into question our dating of the earth in preference to something much shorter. It appears now that you are simply interested in ensuring that we cannot claim any knowledge of anything because everything is changing while not being visibly changed within this frame.

Got it.



What, exactly, is the "problem at hand"? Can you tell me what a rock that dates at 4.5GA would ACTUALLY date when done "properly"?

Obviously this should be a simple matter for your calculations. Can you show us a graph of how the age of a rock that is 4.5GA would change?

Thanks!

Thanks for helping point out the presence of nonsense.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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So by this metric since everything is always changing then can we understand anything? The acceleration due to gravity 9.8m/s^2 is now different according to your hypothesis than it was when I was in high school yet it will still be measured exactly the same because all the rulers will be smaller etc, etc. Yet it will somehow be different?

And maybe a light bulb will go on in your head and you can understand how dinosaurs could survive in today's gravity - by understanding the simple fact that it was NOT THE SAME. Mass increases with acceleration (E=mc^2).

Just because you choose to call a ruler 1 meter long a meter and another ruler 3/4 of a meter long a meter - does not make the shorter one a meter. Only in its own frame is it a meter. But this understanding comes with the prior understanding that it is actually shorter due to energy gained from acceleration - again E=mc^2. You are measuring something that is a proportional measurement - and trying to call it the same.

What, ultimately, is your suggestion as to the "age" of a dinosaur? In what frame are you referencing this age? And what will it matter?

Because for every slow tick of today's clocks - time passed exponentially as you go backwards in time - they increase in speed. This is but a logical consequence of an expanding universe that is increasing in acceleration in which clocks slow. You can't be willing to apply these effects to the twin in the spaceship - then refuse to apply it to the one at home when he is the one now under acceleration. What is one day to us now - was a 1000 years - and so forth increasing exponentially. Since after all - it is those same experts that also claim the expansion began faster than c. And is still increasing at an accelerating rate.

Oh, sorry, I thought maybe this was an attempt to call into question our dating of the earth in preference to something much shorter. It appears now that you are simply interested in ensuring that we cannot claim any knowledge of anything because everything is changing while not being visibly changed within this frame.

Got it.

No just your strawman in your attempt to ignore the very science you claim to follow. Knowing clocks slow under acceleration - claiming the entire universe is undergoing an increasing accelerated expansion - and still refusing to apply the very scientific principles to this accelerating universe. If you can calculate the rate clocks slow under acceleration - then you can calculate the rate they will speed up as you reverse that acceleration backwards. Only you want to use the strawman that I claim it can't be known. But it sure can't be known if you continue to use clocks that tick at today's reduced rate.

What, exactly, is the "problem at hand"? Can you tell me what a rock that dates at 4.5GA would ACTUALLY date when done "properly"?

Obviously this should be a simple matter for your calculations. Can you show us a graph of how the age of a rock that is 4.5GA would change?

Thanks!

You guys claim to do the math - so get to calculating - Relativity should have all your equations ready to go, since we can indeed calculate the rate change from our current velocity and then apply that in reverse. So you tell me.

So since you can calculate the slowing - you should have no problem calculating the reverse.

So why are you not already in a universe where we are accelerating at an increasing rate and it is experimentally proven clocks slow under acceleration?

Accept your science you claim to follow or admit your cosmology is the one that is flawed and that there is no expansion. But this is a hole mainstream dug themselves into - and those are really the only two options left.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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So it is your contention that the earth has experienced 4+ billion years of time passing in relation to other parts of the universe that have experienced much less time passing? Is that your belief?

And you attribute this to differing states of motion? What body was moving differently, and what was the nature of that differing motion?

And yet I'm not the one finding fully formed galaxies where none should exist. Simply because you refuse to understand that yes - each frame experiences it's own time relation. This is the entire principle behind Relativity. It is all RELATIVE to the frame under observation. Only in frames that share the same relative motion - are things the same.

http://hermes.ffn.ub.es/luisnavarro/nuevo_maletin/Einstein_1905_relativity.pdf

The entire galaxy according to mainstream theory is increasing in acceleration. You clearly understand that the twin in the spaceship when under acceleration different from this frame experiences time differently. Then refuse to apply those same principles when it is now this frame that is undergoing acceleration. All to keep your beliefs in Fairie Dust alive.
 
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amanuensis63

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And maybe a light bulb will go on in your head and you can understand how dinosaurs could survive in today's gravity - by understanding the simple fact that it was NOT THE SAME. Mass increases with acceleration (E=mc^2).

By your calculations g (9.8m/s^2) is different today than it was when I was in high school 33 years ago. If I were to go measure g it would still measure as 9.8m/s/s would it not?

Because for every slow tick of today's clocks - time passed exponentially as you go backwards in time - they increase in speed. This is but a logical consequence of an expanding universe that is increasing in acceleration in which clocks slow. You can't be willing to apply these effects to the twin in the spaceship - then refuse to apply it to the one at home when he is the one now under acceleration. What is one day to us now - was a 1000 years - and so forth increasing exponentially. Since after all - it is those same experts that also claim the expansion began faster than c. And is still increasing at an accelerating rate.

You have not answered the question: how old is the earth now?


No just your strawman in your attempt to ignore the very science you claim to follow. Knowing clocks slow under acceleration - claiming the entire universe is undergoing an increasing accelerated expansion - and still refusing to apply the very scientific principles to this accelerating universe. If you can calculate the rate clocks slow under acceleration - then you can calculate the rate they will speed up as you reverse that acceleration backwards. Only you want to use the strawman that I claim it can't be known. But it sure can't be known if you continue to use clocks that tick at today's reduced rate.

How old is the earth now?


You guys claim to do the math - so get to calculating - Relativity should have all your equations ready to go, since we can indeed calculate the rate change from our current velocity and then apply that in reverse. So you tell me.

Your circus, your elephant. Do your own calculations.

So since you can calculate the slowing - you should have no problem calculating the reverse.

So you are telling us you don't have any idea.

Got it!

Thanks

Accept your science you claim to follow or admit your cosmology is the one that is flawed and that there is no expansion. But this is a hole mainstream dug themselves into - and those are really the only two options left.

Either you can show us your calculations or you can't. Since you can't I assume you have nothing . Thanks for playing though.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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By your calculations g (9.8m/s^2) is different today than it was when I was in high school 33 years ago. If I were to go measure g it would still measure as 9.8m/s/s would it not?



You have not answered the question: how old is the earth now?




How old is the earth now?




Your circus, your elephant. Do your own calculations.



So you are telling us you don't have any idea.

Got it!

Thanks



Either you can show us your calculations or you can't. Since you can't I assume you have nothing . Thanks for playing though.

Can you or can you not calculate the rate a clock slows as it accelerates away from this frame? Then you can calculate the rate the clock would speed up as you trace it's timeline backwards? No, this is a one way calculation only?

Here are the calculations you requested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Length_contraction

Unlike you I do not claim to be able to do the calculations. So there are the formulas. So the question is why are you refusing to apply these scientific principles to a universe you claim is undergoing an increasing acceleration? The ability to do or not do the calculations does not change the fact that they are required to be done to any frame not traveling at the same relative velocity. Since you also understand we are increasing in velocity even as we speak - then why are you trying to avoid understanding what you must do - even if you yourself are incapable of doing it?

So all you math wizes get to calculating - the claim of not having the formulas has just been rendered null and void. The fact that none of us may be able to do those calculations - does not give you an excuse to ignore the fact that they must be done - if, as you would have us believe - we are actually undergoing an increasing acceleration as is claimed.

I'm not debating whether any of us can do the calculations - I am just debating you can no longer continue to ignore they need to be done. This or your entire cosmology is incorrect. Up to you the route you want to take.

You on the other hand are welcome to continue to ignore your own beliefs and pretend you do not understand what is being presented. Whatever makes you feel better about ignoring the science.
 
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Astrophile

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Knowing clocks slow under acceleration - claiming the entire universe is undergoing an increasing accelerated expansion - and still refusing to apply the very scientific principles to this accelerating universe. If you can calculate the rate clocks slow under acceleration - then you can calculate the rate they will speed up as you reverse that acceleration backwards.

First, so far as I understand it, it is the expansion of space that is accelerating; material objects are not being accelerated.

Second, do you know the numerical value of the acceleration, either of the universe or of any individual body?
 
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amanuensis63

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Can you or can you not calculate the rate a clock slows as it accelerates away from this frame?

Look, I get it! You can talk really big about time dilation, but you aren't able to calculate anything related to your hypothesis.

I understand! You don't need to ask me to do your work. Remember, Justa, this is your point. Not mine.

Unlike you I do not claim to be able to do the calculations.

Except you brought up this point and you've excoriated everyone for questioning your grasp of this topic. So either you can or you can't. Apparently you can't.

But why would you think you could make rational points about this topic if you can't do the calculations????
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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No he doesn't. His rulers are shorter - he sees the distance grow. It is not the distance between points that shrinks - it is the ruler that measures that distance between those two points.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Length_contraction
"In physics, length contraction is the phenomenon of a decrease in length of an object as measured by an observer which is traveling at any non-zero velocity relative to the object..."
Read that wiki quote you posted carefully. You'll see that it directly contradicts what you've been saying. The length contraction applies to an object being measured by an observer moving relative to that object. So you will measure any object you are moving with respect to as being length contracted, i.e. shorter.

A ruler only appears shorter to an observer moving with respect to that ruler. For two observers moving relative to each other, each observer will measure the other's ruler as shorter than their own.

An observer who deduces that his own ruler must have grown x% because an object moving relative to him measures x% shorter than it did when at rest with respect to him, will be in for a surprise when he measures another object at a different speed and finds it y% shorter than it was when at rest with respect to him. His ruler will appear to be both x% and y% longer... This is another reason why we don't talk of an observer's ruler changing length, but what he measures with it.

You might find this relativistic starship journey calculator interesting.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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First, so far as I understand it, it is the expansion of space that is accelerating; material objects are not being accelerated.

Second, do you know the numerical value of the acceleration, either of the universe or of any individual body?

First - let's keep the Fairie Dust out of the conversation please and keep at least a semblance of reality shall we? Please do not tell me things are moving apart at an accelerated rate - but they aren't really moving at all. You can believe in Fairie Dust if you like - if it is what helps you sleep at night.

Second, no one does - so where does that leave you in this equation since absolute velocity can never be determined?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Look, I get it! You can talk really big about time dilation, but you aren't able to calculate anything related to your hypothesis.

I understand! You don't need to ask me to do your work. Remember, Justa, this is your point. Not mine.



Except you brought up this point and you've excoriated everyone for questioning your grasp of this topic. So either you can or you can't. Apparently you can't.

But why would you think you could make rational points about this topic if you can't do the calculations????

Just like you can talk really big but cant provide the answers either when the formulas are given to you, right??????

Again - your strawman does not get you past the fact that your own theory requires you to do this - and yet you refuse to do so.

My not being able to do the calculations has nothing to do with your deliberate refusal to accept your own science now that it works against you. You mean for years you have known rulers shrink under acceleration. For years have known we live in an accelerating universe. And for years have deliberately refused to apply those relativistic effects?

And now you are going to continue to refuse to accept your own science because you or I don't have the math skills to calculate the results? I understand quite well too. Another practitioner of the Ostrich Theory.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Read that wiki quote you posted carefully. You'll see that it directly contradicts what you've been saying. The length contraction applies to an object being measured by an observer moving relative to that object. So you will measure any object you are moving with respect to as being length contracted, i.e. shorter.

A ruler only appears shorter to an observer moving with respect to that ruler. For two observers moving relative to each other, each observer will measure the other's ruler as shorter than their own.

An observer who deduces that his own ruler must have grown x% because an object moving relative to him measures x% shorter than it did when at rest with respect to him, will be in for a surprise when he measures another object at a different speed and finds it y% shorter than it was when at rest with respect to him. His ruler will appear to be both x% and y% longer... This is another reason why we don't talk of an observer's ruler changing length, but what he measures with it.

You might find this relativistic starship journey calculator interesting.

This is relativity. There is no determination of absolute motion. Either can be taken as moving or stationary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_(physics)

"As there is no absolute frame of reference, absolute motion cannot be determined. Thus, everything in the universe can be considered to be moving."

Which damages your case even further. So everything in the universe is moving - and according to those same people - at an accelerating rate. Which of course means all rulers are shrinking.

And you are incorrect in your thought patterns.

Read the article

"Length contraction refers to measurements of position made at simultaneous times according to a coordinate system. This could suggest that if one could take a picture of a fast moving object, that the image would show the object contracted in the direction of motion."

You observe the moving object as being shorter. Hence they even explained to you that the rod if thrown out of the train - would become larger when it entered the rest frame (stationary). But I suppose in your zeal to misread things you missed that part too?

"Then the rod will be thrown out of the train in S and will come to rest at the station in S'. Its length has to be measured again according to the methods given above, and now the proper length
dfc024d777ad7e6b8b7c6eb2f65df576.png
will be measured in S' (the rod has become larger in that system),"...... because it became shorter in the moving system.... "while in S the rod is in motion and therefore its length is contracted (the rod has become smaller in that system)"

S is the moving system and in S the rod is shorter.

Relativity and rulers

Not that I expect you to actually read anything presented.
 
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amanuensis63

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Just like you can talk really big but cant provide the answers either when the formulas are given to you, right??????

It is NOT MY CLAIM. It is YOUR CLAIM. YOUR CLAIM = YOUR PROOF = YOUR CALCULATIONS.


Again - your strawman

Learn what a "strawman argument" is. Please.

does not get you past the fact that your own theory requires you to do this - and yet you refuse to do so.

IT DOES NOT. My "theory" is that 4.5GA is 4.5GA to all observers in the same frame. And since everyone on this forum is in the same frame it means that you are raising a philosophical point that has no real bearing on the situation until you can show us exactly what that would be.

My not being able to do the calculations

You keep reminding us you have no idea what you are talking about here. Thanks for that. But I'm curious why you keep talking about something you've now claimed TWICE you have no understanding of how to calculate.

I don't have the math skills

That is too bad. Why is this important to you if you don't understand it?
 
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ddubois

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There's something else to consider, actually a few things to consider:

1. Dinosaur bones have never been found in rocks younger than 65 million years old. (I mean apart from "birds" which some believe are the inheritors of "dinosauria"), but the fact is that no dinosaur has ever been found in a rock that can be reliably dated less than 65 million years old.

2. There ARE OTHER WAYS TO GET MODERN CARBON INTO A GIVEN FOSSIL...mainly contamination. Bacteria and modern things are really hard to keep out of the mix.

3. Our understanding of how old dinosaurs are is built on masses of data from all over the earth and not just one or two samples.

SO, in order to accept that a "dinosaur" bone or fossil would have 14-C in it sufficient to be dated as only a few thousand years old would require the following:

A. The complete overturning of just about everything we know about geology, going back hundreds of years.
B. The disavowal of thousands and thousands and thousands of other fossils we find
C. The acceptance that even though no other dinosaurs have been found so young this one is.
D. Contamination even though not uncommon, cannot be used to explain this one sample.

Now, speaking as a geologist who has actually been out in the field and played around with rocks and fossils I'd have to say I'm unwilling to throw out everything we know which has actually served us quite well, just so we don't have to accept that this might be a case of contamination or improper use of a technique.

This is, effectively, Ockham's Razor. Should we assume that everything we know is completely wrong (even going so far as to say that all of physics and chemistry is probably wrong) just to explain one sample or do we assume the one sample is misinterpretted?

This is another way to look at science.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I will respond to your point 3, which seems the strongest, and incorporates your first two points:

A. If the carbon-dating of dinosaur soft tissue is correct, it could indeed overturn just about everything we know about geology, going back almost 200 years. I agree that is a legitimate reason for being very careful about accepting it.
B. "The disavowal of thousands and thousands and thousands of other fossils we find" -- I don't understand. Cuvier who originally discovered the dinosaur fossils and recognized them for what they and Owen who coined the word "dinosaur" were creationists. So how would changing the dates back to what they were thought to be before be disavowing the fossils?
C. "The acceptance that even though no other dinosaurs have been found so young this one is." If this were true, I would agree the young age should be rejected. But I understand there have been many, from a number of different locations.
D. "Contamination even though not uncommon, cannot be used to explain this one sample." I don't think it is legitimate to exclude the possibility of contamination. While I am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the scientists who claim they were very careful, I can certainly understand why you would be skeptical. I am hopeful though that the weight of evidence will continue to build.

"This is, effectively, Ockham's Razor. Should we assume that everything we know is completely wrong (even going so far as to say that all of physics and chemistry is probably wrong) just to explain one sample or do we assume the one sample is misinterpretted?"

As I understand it Ockham's razor tells us when choosing between two theories that both explain the data, to choose the theory which minimizes our assumptions. I understand the half-life concept, but I don't well understand all that goes into radiometric dating. For one thing all the carbon reservoir stuff in the Wikipedia article on carbon dating makes my head swim. I realize that creationists tend to think old earth chronologists use more assumptions than the old earth chronologists are willing to admit to, so we not be able to agree on which hypothesis uses the fewest assumptions, but let me just tell you how it looks to me:

A. Old Earth Radiometric dating assumptions
1. The decay rate stays nearly the same forever, no matter what catastrophes my have occurred in past unrecorded
history.
2. The mitigating conditions, like changes in c14/c12 ratios, are relatively minor in recent times and have always been so.
3. Dating systems that support young earth ages will always be in error, and so need not be considered


B. Young earth dating assumptions (for the minority of Christians who believe that way)
1. The Bible is historically accurate.
2. Dating systems that support old earth ages require one of the following:
a. a different interpretation of the Bible (not very popular after about 1970);
b. use of something like
the theory of relativity plus expansion of the universe to allow both old earth age and young earth age to be both true.
c. postulation of one or more catastrophes and/or different earth starting conditions that serve to invalidate one or both of the first two old earth dating assumptions listed above.

I think that whether a creationist chooses a, b, or c above, his assumptions are no less minimal than those of the old earth chronologist.
 
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ddubois

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I apologize for my earlier sloppy response, which seemed to me less respectful than you deserved, so I have redone it. Sorry

It isn't special, and actually quite affordable. At IDT you can get 25 nmoles of a 30-mer for $11. The shipping will cost you more than the DNA. This is artificially created DNA. You give them a sequence and you can get it the next day if you choose overnight shipping.

This is new and interesting information to me. I really don't know that much about DNA. But this artificial DNA -- is it able to do what human DNA does, multiply one cell into billions, all with the same DNA, but different and complementary functions? If not, what is it able to do?

It is basic chemistry, no different than any other chemical reaction.



That would be an argument from incredulity, which is a logical fallacy. Reality could care less what you will or won't accept.

I hadn't heard of "argument from incredulity" before and so looked it up on the internet. (Thanks for acquainting me with the term.) It may have looked like I was saying that human DNA could not be formed by chance because I could not imagine it, but I was just intending to ask the other guy if he could imagine it. I wish I could lay my hands on a good citation to show why I think (and I am a mathematician acquainted with probabilities) that billions of years would not be enough to produce DNA by random processes. The best I could do on a quick scan of the internet was from
www.scienceforums.net › ... › Evolution, Morphology and Exobiology:


"DNA Molecules and the Odds Against Evolution
Within each cell there is an area called the nucleus which contains the all-important chromosomes. Chromosomes are microscopically small, rod-shaped structures which carry the genes. Within the chromosomes is an even smaller structure called DNA. This is one of the most important chemical substances in the human body -- or in any other living thing. Increasing scientific understanding of DNA molecules has revealed enormous problems for materialism.

DNA is a super-molecule which stores coded hereditary information. It consists of two long "chains" of chemical "building blocks" paired together. In humans, the strands of DNA are almost 2 yards long, yet less than a trillionth of an inch thick.

In function, DNA is somewhat like a computer program on a floppy disk. It stores and transfers encoded information and instructions. It is said that the DNA of a human stores enough information code to fill 1,000 books -- each with 500 pages of very small, closely-printed type. The DNA code produces a product far more sophisticated than that of any computer. Amazingly, this enormous set of instructions fits with ease within a single cell and routinely directs the formation of entire adult humans, starting with just a single fertilized egg. Even the DNA of a bacterium is highly complex, containing at least 3 million units, all aligned in a very precise, meaningful sequence.

DNA and the molecules that surround it form a truly superb mechanism -- a miniaturized marvel. the information is so compactly stored that the amount of DNA necessary to code all the people living on our planet might fit into a space no larger than an asprin tablet!

Many scientists are convinced that cells containing such a complex code and such intricate chemistry could never have come into being by pure, undirected chemistry. No matter how chemicals are mixed, they do not create DNA spirals or any intelligent code whatsoever. Only DNA reproduces DNA.

Two well known scientists calculated the odds of life forming by natural processes. They estimated that there is less than 1 chance in 10 to the 40,000power that life could have originated by random trials. 10 to the 40,000power is a 1 with 40,000 zeros after it!"



Then it will show up in the tree ritng, lake varve, speleothem, and ice records. Carbon dating does not assume that 14C production was ever the same in the past since it has never been the same in the present. Instead, carbon dates are calibrated for known changes in historic 14C production.

http://calib.qub.ac.uk/

What hasn't changed is the decay rate of 14C, or the process of terrestrial plants fixing that CO2 through the process of photosynthesis. The terrestrial herbivores eat that carbon and take on the ratios found in the plants, and then the predators eat those herbivores and take on the carbon ratios in the herbivores.

My main thesis is that carbon dating does assume the C14/C12 ratio is constant. If never more than one tree ring or lake varve layer formed in a year, I would agree to abandon the young earth hypothesis. But I understand exceptions to one ring per year have been found. Moreover, as far as I know, recorded history only goes back 5,000 years, and conditions prior to then could be much different, possibly allowing even more rings per year than we have already observed. My conclusion is that you have to make assumptions for extrapolating beyond than 5000 years, and all dating prior to 5000 years ago is in effect contaminated by such assumptions.
 
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amanuensis63

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Thank you for your thoughtful response. I will respond to your point 3, which seems the strongest, and incorporates your first two points:

A. If the carbon-dating of dinosaur soft tissue is correct, it could indeed overturn just about everything we know about geology, going back almost 200 years.

The important thing there is the words "if the carbon dating of dinosaur soft tissue is correct". The fact that it is far more likely to be the result of contamination or later bacterial infusion or any number of other incorrect causes to the age is the point.

Which is more likely: every bit of evidence ever gathered about dinosaurs over the past 150 years is wrong and this one piece of questionable data is right or the other way 'round?

B. "The disavowal of thousands and thousands and thousands of other fossils we find" -- I don't understand. Cuvier who originally discovered the dinosaur fossils and recognized them for what they and Owen who coined the word "dinosaur" were creationists. So how would changing the dates back to what they were thought to be before be disavowing the fossils?

Since Cuvier we've found countless dinosaur fossils which have been effectively dated by radiometric means and stratigraphic means to be much, much, much older and in the countless more recent deposits that have been found we have never found a dinosaur fossil.

C. "The acceptance that even though no other dinosaurs have been found so young this one is." If this were true, I would agree the young age should be rejected. But I understand there have been many, from a number of different locations.

Not that I am aware of.

As I understand it Ockham's razor tells us when choosing between two theories that both explain the data, to choose the theory which minimizes our assumptions.

In this case your assumptions are:

1. Thousands of dinosaur bones found over the past 150 years have been incorrectly dated
2. After 65 million years ago dinosaurs effectively hid such that they would never be found in younger rocks
3. A more likely explanation of a lower age for this material is incorrect (contamination)
4. All radiometric dating that is not C-14 is incorrect (which is how earlier dinosaur bones would have been dated by U-Pb or Ar-Ar, or K-Ar in marker beds above or stratigraphically near the dinosaur bones)
5. Everything we know about geology is completely wrong

What Ockham's razor ensures is that an hypothesis such as mine is more likely. My assumptions are:

1. There has been an error in this sample, a contamination.
2. Geology, paleontology and stratigraphy are all still intact.

A. Old Earth Radiometric dating assumptions
1. The decay rate stays nearly the same forever, no matter what catastrophes my have occurred in past unrecorded
history.

There is very little that can effectively alter the rate of radioactive decay. It is a first order rate kinetic. The only thing I've ever read about altering the rate of a radioactive decay was some unpublished thing in ArXiv a few years back about solar neutrino flux changing (seasonally) the rate of decay of a relatively rare Si isotope but since it was a seasonal change the annual rate would remain the same.

2. The mitigating conditions, like changes in c14/c12 ratios, are relatively minor in recent times and have always been so.


I can't think of anything short of human testing of atomic bombs in the atmosphere that would have greatly altered the 14-C/12-C ratio.

3. Dating systems that support young earth ages will always be in error, and so need not be considered

This is mostly just based on evidence. YEC requires pretty much everything we know about chemistry and physics to be disavowed. AND almost every YEC attempt to date a rock has been shown to have massive errors (usually poor lab practices). The problem with YEC is that it starts from an assumption and only goes with that data which confirms the assumption.

I think that whether a creationist chooses a, b, or c above, his assumptions are no less minimal than those of the old earth chronologist.

No. YEC is based on a pre-set assumption that the Bible, specifically one book (Genesis) tells the true story and that all data must conform to that. The history of Geology from the 17th century to about the 19th century was our slow recognition that almost nothing in the real world looks like or behaves like it would only be 6000-10,000 years old. Once we let go of that binding then geology was able to grow and become a robust science that made sense.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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This is relativity. There is no determination of absolute motion. Either can be taken as moving or stationary.
Precisely.
Which damages your case even further.
Nope - I didn't mention absolute motion.
You observe the moving object as being shorter.
Exactly; which wouldn't be the case if, as you claimed earlier, your ruler had become shorter. QED.
 
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Loudmouth

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Because we have increased in acceleration since the dinosaurs - our clocks have slowed - our rulers have shrunk.

Clocks don't change within the frame of reference. The only way your scenario would apply is if the rocks being dated and the Earth were in different frames of reference at some point. That isn't the case. The Earth and the rocks being dated have always been going the same velocity and have always been in the same frame of reference. No matter how fast you are going you will always measure the same decay rate. It is only when you observe decay in a different frame of reference that you see a change.
 
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