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Updating The Theory of the Earth

Loudmouth

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On the other hand, I have heard that mainstream scientists have refused to accept actual unadjusted carbon dating of dinosaur soft tissues to between 25,000 and 40,000 years because "everyone knows the dinosaurs dies out 65 million years ago".

Then you need to listen to the actual scientists, because that is not the reason they give. First, it is highly doubtful that they are even measuring organic carbon. Second, there is strong evidence for contamination in these samples.


The only refusal is the refusal on the part of creationists that soft tissue can be preserved for 65 million years.

In any case, I still think the weight of evidence is for a young earth,

Think what you want. The reality of the situation is just the opposite.

Notice that you didn't deal with the evidence that has been presented. That calibration curve is a composite of several lines of evidence: tree rings, lake varves, ice layers, and speleothems. They all agree with each other. How can you have all of these independent lines of evidence produced by completely different mechanisms all produce consilient data? You haven't explained it. Until you do, the weight of the evidence from carbon dating contradicts a young Earth, and a global flood while we are at it.

and so to be consistent, I wouldn't be able to accept air samples from what I believe are post-flood layers as being pre-flood.

You don't get to reject evidence because of beliefs.
 
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Loudmouth

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Why are you suppressing the results of radiometric dating of the K/T boundary?
 
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Paulos23

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Velikovsky's ideas about orbital mechanics are ludicrous.

Wait a minute. Immanuel Velikovsky? The one Carl Sagan debunked on the idea of where Venus came from?

Why would anyone go to that old watering hole? It is all dried up already.
 
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Paulos23

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ddubois

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Are you saying the refusal to entertain dinosaur soft tissue under 40,000 years old is not because of a belief?
 
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Loudmouth

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Are you saying the refusal to entertain dinosaur soft tissue under 40,000 years old is not because of a belief?

Are you saying the refusal to entertain dinosaur soft tissue over 65 million years old is not because of a belief?

All you have is the empty assertion that soft tissue can't be preserved over 65 million years old. The dinosaur bones themselves are found in very well dated sediments in the Hell's Creek formation (if memory serves).

[added in later edit]

"It is hard to imagine for anyone trained in the rigor of science that Wieland could offer as an apparent concession the notion that "Some dinosaur fossils could have formed in post-Flood local catastrophes." It is hard to imagine Wieland is serious when considering that by "post-Flood," he means that there are dinosur remains floating about that are less than 4000 years old. What is inconceivable is that Wieland is honestly ignorant that the dates associated with the age of these remains are not related to their condition. The age of the specificT. rex bone which was the principle database for Schweitzer et al is not based on either its macro- or microscopic appearance but of the age of the rock that it was found in, "... the base of the Hell Creek Formation, 8 m above the Fox Hills Sandstone, as an association of disarticulated elements." The appearance of soft tissue, hard tissue or no tissue has no bearing in the age of this material- organic or inorganic. What is the basis for these age determinations is the independent existence of geochemical "clocks" known as radiometric dating. Professional creationists and their prey simply reject radiometric dates, which has always seemed to me to be an odd logical contradiction, or in an anthropological term: cognitive dissonance. If these people are able to ignore geology, chemistry and physics, why do they even bother to lie about biology?"
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dinosaur/flesh.html


http://ncse.com/rncse/20/3/radiometric-dating-does-work

Notice the measurements of tektites, biotite, and zircons in the Hell Creek formation in that figure. We have three different minerals measured by three different radiometric methods all producing the same date. The age of the fossils is not in question.
 
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ddubois

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The article I sent you before said, " the bones are younger than anyone ever guessed. Carbon-14 (C-14) dating of multiple samples of bone from 8 dinosaurs found in Texas, Alaska, Colorado, and Montana revealed that they are only 22,000 to 39,000 years old. Members of the Paleochronology group presented their findings at the 2012 Western Pacific Geophysics Meeting in Singapore, August 13-17, a conference of the American Geophysical Union (AGU) and the Asia Oceania Geosciences Society (AOGS)." Is this the empty assertion you were referring to?



I don't asset soft tissue can't be preserved for 65 million years. The Smithsonian article and others assert that and I consider what they say. With God all things are possible. The article I sent you indicates there are many sites
 
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SkyWriting

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There is no good reason to seek a young earth theory. Some friend of the pope came up with
this idea, that the scriptures do not support. Even within the creation week there are fruiting trees.
My trees don't fruit till about the third year after planting.

How about you create a list of trees that bear fruit in 7 days?
Let's synce that list up with the creation account.
 
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ddubois

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Sometimes good ideas come from unlikely sources. A wise man looks well into a matter. I have been thinking about creationism and its alternatives for 24 years, and have read the Bible 8 times, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Your approach (with fruit trees) that what we see today can be projected indefinitely into the past is call uniformitarianism and was largely popularized in the 1800s by Charles Lyell, who was a mentor to Charles Darwin. Earlier scientists (including Newton and Cuvier) and modern creationist scientists left room for catastrophes far beyond current experience. If you believe Jesus could turn water into wine, walk on water, and rise from the dead to sit at the right hand of the Father, what is so difficult with God bring time lapse photography to life? With God a thousand years can be as a day!
 
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DogmaHunter

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Well, sure.... if you allow for magic, then literally everything is possible, right?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Carbon dating is an invalid method to date things older then a few 10.000 years. Only ignorant (or dishonest) people would do that.

But whatever, right? As long as you can pretend that it fits the stuff you already believe, who cares ha?
 
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Loudmouth

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Carbon dating fossils that are millions of years old can not be shown to be "younger than we guessed". That's like using your bathroom scale to measure the weight of a truck, and using the highest number on the scale as proof the truck only weighs 350 lbs. The numbers you are giving are consistent with carbonate contamination, and measurements near the end of the scale for carbon dating.

Also, you need to explain why dinosaur bones are consistently found below igneous deposits that are 65 million years or older. You need to explain why we never see them above igneous deposits that are 10 or 5 million years old, or at the lower level of detection for that methodology.

I don't asset soft tissue can't be preserved for 65 million years. The Smithsonian article and others assert that and I consider what they say. With God all things are possible. The article I sent you indicates there are many sites

The bones under question are 65 million years old. We have the evidence.
 
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ddubois

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Well, sure.... if you allow for magic, then literally everything is possible, right?
That is true. I was replying from an evangelical Christian point of view, which I think would be inadmissible to atheists. If I was replying from a purely scientific point of view, I would have said something different, like -- according to the now accepted big bang theory, all matter got spontaneously created in 10^-37 seconds. During certain points of time in the past, we know that natural forces can be very much accelerated by unusual circumstances. Why couldn't the same be true of living forces?
 
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ddubois

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You should consider ALL the evidence.
 
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DogmaHunter

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That is true. I was replying from an evangelical Christian point of view, which I think would be inadmissible to atheists.

Or non-christians in general...
Or, rather, non-fundy-christians in general.

Even the pope said the other day "god is not a magician".


Because evidence.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You should consider ALL the evidence.

Invalid application of dating methods, is not evidence.
That's just invalid application of dating methods.

Like Loudmouths absolutely brilliant example (which I may borrow in the future if you don't mind LM - absolutely loved it )....

If you have a scale that can only measure upto 100 kg, then putting a 20-ton truck on it is not evidence that the truck only weighs 100 kg. It rather is only evidence that the one doing the measurement isn't that smart...
 
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ddubois

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At first I didn't realize that the following was part of your response, which I will reproduce below:
"Invalid application of dating methods, is not evidence.
That's just invalid application of dating methods.

Like Loudmouths absolutely brilliant example (which I may borrow in the future if you don't mind LM - absolutely loved it )....

If you have a scale that can only measure upto 100 kg, then putting a 20-ton truck on it is not evidence that the truck only weighs 100 kg. It rather is only evidence that the one doing the measurement isn't that smart..."

The statement that putting a 20-ton truck on a 100kg scale doesn't mean the truck weighs 100kg is certainly true, but doesn't seem to me to be describe well the soft tissue dinosaur age measurement I cited.

First of all, unlike regular scales which don't require a lot of assumptions, radiometric dating uses uniformitarian assumptions which can be questioned. Even mainstream chronologists have conceded that carbon dating has had to be modified slightly to synch up with tree ring dating in just the last 10,000 years. Wouldn't longer term dating, like Ur/Pb or K/Ar, likely require much greater modification, due to meteoric impacts and other events not appearing in recorded history?

But to continue with your scale analogy, if carbon 14 dating (5700 yr half-life) is the 100kg scale, then K/Ar dating (1.2b yr half life) would be a 20 million kg scale. The dinosaur bones would measure 50kg on the 100kg scale (22k to 39kg measured ages vs 50k to 75k accelerator mass spectrometry limit per Wikipedia article), and they would measure 150,000 kg on the 20 million kg scale. With the scales so out of synch, and the bigger scale so much more subject to modification, why wouldn't I trust the 100 kg scale?
 
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Gene2memE

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Ddubois, I get the feeling that you're labouring under a number of false assumptions about radiometric dating.

May I recommend two resources to you, one from a Chiristian, biblical literalist, old earth creationist website and the other from a counter-apologetics website.

A Christian perspective on radiometric dating (and as an addenum, A counter against the argument for accelerating rates of decay)
A counter-apologetic take on radiometric dating

Both of the radiometric dating pieces are written by PhD level scientists, one a physicist with a specality in planetary sciences, the other a geologist specalising in radiometric dating.

I hope you'll read them. They should clear up the misapprehensions you have about the rigor of radionucletide dating methods.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Anything can be questioned. But you need an actual valid reason to question things, especially when these things are supported by evidence.



Only if you can actually demonstrate that the rate of decay can be altered by such things.


Because the 100kg scale is known to not be appropriate.
And because the other large scales, that are valid, converge on the same answer.

So, again: because evidence.
 
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ddubois

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Feelings can be deceptive. For example, I had the feeling that, based on a lot of research, I had given sound answers.
I would appreciate it if you could put your finger on what I said that gave you the feeling that I was laboring under a number of false assumptions about radiometric dating. Even better would be to quote a source which you think is a good argument against what I have said.
 
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