unsure...

[Criada]

well as im 17 i cant really just "look around" but im feeling pretty good with not going to church etc...

do i have to go to church / read the bible to be a "good christian"?

Going to church isn't essential.. nor is reading the Bible... there are millions of Christians in the world who don't have the opportunity to own a bible.
The important thing is knowing God, and once you know Him, you find that you want to know Him more and more.. and reading the bible, meeting other Christians are ways of doing that. But they aren't essentials.. and they don't make you a Christian, either.
It is about the love and grace of God... accepting that is all that is needed.

You said:

I tend to look at things the more scientifical way, and as there is no concrete evidence... well, im not sure wether not or wether to believe in a higher power. I mean, ive never really felt the need for some kind of God,
I live my life by my own "rules"

Well, I don't think that science and faith are contradictory.. I am a scientist by training, and I haven't found a conflict between the two.
Science tells us how things work, faith tells us why.

You say you live by your 'own rules'. Do you mind me asking what you mean by that? What are the rules you live by?

and also, ive thought about this alot, but wouldnt the world be a much better place without religion?
lots of disputes and wars are based on religion, it has made lots of people's life quite miserable..

I completely agree, religion causes a lot of trouble, and we would be better of without it.
Religion tends to be a man made system that tries to point people to God, but more often blocks them from really knowing Him.
Jesus is the one who matters, and He spent a great deal of time condemning religion and religious people.
Try reading the gospels, you may be surprised by what He actually said...

 

[GreenMunchkin]

well, imo, religion hasnt done many good things... mostly bad things

I mean, if we could just forget it, wouldnt life but much easier?

I don't think that's the case... terrible, terrible things have been done in the name of religion, but it doesn't make religion inherently evil. Just as slavery was primarily perpetuated by whites, it doesn't make being white somehow inherently evil.

But there's no denying people have done awful things in the name of religion. The problem is, if someone is going to do something terrible, they'll always find a reason, or a justification.

Equally, some wonderful things are done in the name of God. And it's important to differentiate between God, faith, and religiosity. They're not the same thing.

easier as in a logical explanation for everything? wich doesnt involve a supernatural power?

If a supernatural power exists, though, that's an immutable truth. So does it matter whether the explanation is more "logical" if it's still wrong?

In other words, what's more important? The truth, or our perception of logic?

well, as english isnt my primary language this might be a bit sloppy but I'll try...

Heh, you speak English better than I do!

I believe in the evolution theory, yes. it has been proven several times and the evidence is just so clear... it makes much more sense to me than God who just said poof and there the earth was.
I find it hard to believe in christianity as there are so many things that contradict it.. f.e. the bible states that the earth only is about 6000years old. thats just ridiculous if you ask me

You know it's only a small percentage of Christians that believe that. Most Christians have no trouble reconciling Christianity and evolution, nor faith with the idea of the world being billions of years old.

I don't think you'll come across a single Christians who doesn't believe God is Creator (even the Golden Ratio found so often in nature adds to my belief that there is an Intelligent Designer) but ID doesn't negate evolution.

You don't need to believe in young earth creationism to be a Christian. You just need to believe in Christ.

some other things in the bible dont make sense at all.. like Noah who gathered 2 out of every specy and put them on a boat? how did he move for example, whales? and all the little germs/microscopical creatures?
concerning the flood aswel, there is no proof for this...

I don't know enough about the flood... I do know there are geologists on both sides who make convincing arguments. But I don't know. And, honestly, that doesn't make me doubt my faith in the slightest bit.

Jesus walking over water? turning water into wine? flaming godly bushes?

im sorry, but I just cant believe all of this... it seems way to fake

The burning bush... again, I don't know. But Christ's miracles - absolutely. They really happened, and miracles are still happening today. He really walked on water, and He really turned water into wine, and He really was resurrected and is still alive. The miracles were witnessed by hundreds, thousands of people.

I think it's probably a lot easier to accept if you've witnessed a miracle firsthand, and there's no way to convince you retroactively. But He did what the Bible says - because He is God.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

thanks for the welcome =)

but to be quite honest, I dont really feel that "hole" in my heart when looking at a world without God.

I tend to look at things the more scientifical way, and as there is no concrete evidence... well, im not sure wether not or wether to believe in a higher power. I mean, ive never really felt the need for some kind of God,
I live my life by my own "rules"

and also, ive thought about this alot, but wouldnt the world be a much better place without religion?
lots of disputes and wars are based on religion, it has made lots of people's life quite miserable..

I had sin, faith and miracles in my life. When my little sins grew while I did, my memory of my faith and miracles became a judgment and conscience to help me. My little sin became a sick habit and had grown-up to harbor shamefulness and harm. Little misdirections early in life will become monsters later. Why do we need rules and an enforcer of these (God)? FOR EXAMPLE: The little sin in our society called adultery quickly grows up with us to start messing with our minds and hearts. This will cause great harm as all little sins can and do. Want to keep your ability to have a conscience? Just have rules to follow and believe in their purposes of better guiding you (to help you). So it is with God and his rules. I never had a question about whether there was a God or not. I don't remember not knowing or not believing in his existence. My problem was whether I really wanted to follow him or to have things my way and live with my many little sins. There must be a lot of sin fertilizer around me, for the little sins grew so quickly to make shambles of me and my self respect. We want to have things our way (self-determination but under helpful guidance) and to have self-respect. I found that I could have both within God's care. May you find God or I pray that he finds you, just speak to him. Love you.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

PS: Don't worry about religions and wars. Anyone obeying Jesus Christ will not hate his enemies or harm them, even if religion endorse such a course. Obeying Christ is a deep personal commitment. No organization can trump this commitment. It is up to the believer. There will not be 33,000 or more Christian denominations heading for Heaven. But there will be a huge crowd of believers, unified by obeying Jesus, plain and simple, just like the truth.

 

[andreha]

so you're saying that if I feel good with the answers atheism provides and if that makes me feel "love" I should follow that and be an atheist?

I was referring to the Christianity related answers in the previously referenced thread that MinorityOfOne started. I should have been a bit more specific, perhaps.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

well, ive been thinking and reading alot lately.
saw some video's on youtube wich got me thinking...

at first I was "christian", but not a fanatic one. ive been raised christian, got baptised and all but never really thought about my religion or "interracted with it", all I ever did was visit church like once a month

but now, well im just not sure anymore... the atheist way of thinking seems very logical and attractive to me but yea... I dont know what to believe...

Thinking and reading is good. What have you been reading? What video's on You Tube got your attention?

What about the atheist way of thinking seems logical and attractive to you?

Genuinely curious,

OldChurchGuy

 

[Aibrean]

Just to be technical...believing in God won't get you to heaven (doesn't Satan believe in God? Don't the Jews believe in God? Don't Muslims believe in God?). Believing in and following Jesus will.

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Christianity isn't an individualistic thing. You can't properly be part of the people of God apart from other people of God.

you might have a point there, yeah

ill give it some thought later

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

It is about the love and grace of God... accepting that is all that is needed.

but how can I trust something that might not even exist?
i mean, if you think logically, there isnt that much of a reason to believe there is a supernatural being? and if it does exist, why does it hide?
it doesnt make sense in my opinion

Well, I don't think that science and faith are contradictory.. I am a scientist by training, and I haven't found a conflict between the two.
Science tells us how things work, faith tells us why.

well, the bible does refer to things that cant be true (if we should believe science)
f.e. all the inexplicable things i mentioned (earth being 6000 years old etc)

You say you live by your 'own rules'. Do you mind me asking what you mean by that? What are the rules you live by?

this is kind of a hard question...

with my own rules I mean something like:
-not having to believe everything my "lord" tells me to. (f.e. the bible)
-having freedom of mind, making my own decisions, not following somebody's else's advice
-not (having) to visit church every week
-choosing my own way of how I see things. Im not sure if I want to believe that someone just snapped his fingers and there earth was...
or that there is something out there in the universe which is our lord and looks over us all...

im not sure if you get the point but I really cant explain in much better

I completely agree, religion causes a lot of trouble, and we would be better of without it.
Religion tends to be a man made system that tries to point people to God, but more often blocks them from really knowing Him.
Jesus is the one who matters, and He spent a great deal of time condemning religion and religious people.
Try reading the gospels, you may be surprised by what He actually said...

ah yes, another of my concerns. religion is said to be invented by man...
when you look at the ancient greeks, romans and celts, they all invented their Gods to explain things... and these "fairytales" caused a great deal of trouble later on..
how can you be so sure that christianity isnt another of these "fairytales" ?

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

But there's no denying people have done awful things in the name of religion. The problem is, if someone is going to do something terrible, they'll always find a reason, or a justification.

thats a way to look at it. but you can think of it the other way around...
"planning of doing something bad , using religion as a justification"

><

"believing your religion is the real cause of having to do something bad"

Equally, some wonderful things are done in the name of God. And it's important to differentiate between God, faith, and religiosity. They're not the same thing.
If a supernatural power exists, though, that's an immutable truth. So does it matter whether the explanation is more "logical" if it's still wrong?

In other words, what's more important? The truth, or our perception of logic?

IF a supernatural power exists... IF you say. yes, if we would know for sure, life would be alot easier. but now there just isnt any proof!

because of that, we cant be sure if the more logical explanation is wrong.
we dont know what the truth really is, so there is no way of saying whats the most important..

Heh, you speak English better than I do!

thanks

You know it's only a small percentage of Christians that believe that. Most Christians have no trouble reconciling Christianity and evolution, nor faith with the idea of the world being billions of years old.

I don't think you'll come across a single Christians who doesn't believe God is Creator (even the Golden Ratio found so often in nature adds to my belief that there is an Intelligent Designer) but ID doesn't negate evolution.

what do you mean by the golden ratio?
and I find it easier to believe that nature itself created these wondrous things than God did.
"but ID doesnt negate evolution"? do you mean by this that God might have created everything, but that evolution did the rest?

You just need to believe in Christ.
The burning bush... again, I don't know. But Christ's miracles - absolutely. They really happened, and miracles are still happening today. He really walked on water, and He really turned water into wine, and He really was resurrected and is still alive. The miracles were witnessed by hundreds, thousands of people.

I think it's probably a lot easier to accept if you've witnessed a miracle firsthand, and there's no way to convince you retroactively. But He did what the Bible says - because He is God.

I dont really believe the bible, sorry.
these sound way to "extreme" in my opinion to be real.
I cant trust on a book that probably hasnt even been written by people who witnessed this firsthand.

 

[ebia]

you might have a point there, yeah

ill give it some thought later

Of course that doesn't mean that has to look like what we conventially label 'church'

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

I had sin, faith and miracles in my life. When my little sins grew while I did, my memory of my faith and miracles became a judgment and conscience to help me. My little sin became a sick habit and had grown-up to harbor shamefulness and harm. Little misdirections early in life will become monsters later. Why do we need rules and an enforcer of these (God)? FOR EXAMPLE: The little sin in our society called adultery quickly grows up with us to start messing with our minds and hearts. This will cause great harm as all little sins can and do. Want to keep your ability to have a conscience? Just have rules to follow and believe in their purposes of better guiding you (to help you). So it is with God and his rules. I never had a question about whether there was a God or not. I don't remember not knowing or not believing in his existence. My problem was whether I really wanted to follow him or to have things my way and live with my many little sins. There must be a lot of sin fertilizer around me, for the little sins grew so quickly to make shambles of me and my self respect. We want to have things our way (self-determination but under helpful guidance) and to have self-respect. I found that I could have both within God's care. May you find God or I pray that he finds you, just speak to him. Love you.

all this manner of "sins". I would think that the God of love wouldnt really care that much about them?

I would find it hard to believe in a God that isnt a bit "human", if you know what I mean. we should have room for error as God is nice and loving?

all this guiding and sinning scares me a bit to be honest..
isnt it easier to live life as you would want to? without any "sinner" rules to follow?

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

I was referring to the Christianity related answers in the previously referenced thread that MinorityOfOne started. I should have been a bit more specific, perhaps.

perhaps you should have

but how do you feel about my statement?

"so you're saying that if I feel good with the answers atheism provides and if that makes me feel "love" I should follow that and be an atheist? "

thats what I said

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Just to be technical...believing in God won't get you to heaven (doesn't Satan believe in God? Don't the Jews believe in God? Don't Muslims believe in God?). Believing in and following Jesus will.

how can you be so sure there is a heaven? and that Jesus really lived?

I tend to think that Jesus / heaven arent real.

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Thinking and reading is good. What have you been reading? What video's on You Tube got your attention?

What about the atheist way of thinking seems logical and attractive to you?

Genuinely curious,

OldChurchGuy

well, ive mainly been reading on the internet...
mostly forums... ive been on both religious and atheistic forums to gather information.
some of these sites are

well, the video you youtube I saw was "the greatest optical illusion of all time". I first thought it would be some kind of magic trick but it turned out to be about God being imaginary... I found this video pretty interesting and watched some other video's by this person. I found about the site (whywontgodhealamputees.com) and ive been looking through that site aswel.

that youtube account is:
http://www.youtube.com/user/giivideo
the sites are:
http://godisimaginary.com
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com

well, what I found most attractive was that you dont have to rely on anything. everything can be proven without any higher power.
everything has a meaning and explanation, no "God", just science.

their theories about, well, everything amaze me...

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Of course that doesn't mean that has to look like what we conventially label 'church'

yes, i understand that, but there arent any "religious groups" in my neighbourhood aswel...

most people here claim to be christian but they are christian in a "passive" way.. not going to church alot, not really interracting with their religion.

it doesnt play a "big" role in their life...

thanks for replying that fast by the way.

P.S. could you (or anyone else) explain me what these "reps" and "blessings" are?

 

[ebia]

yes, i understand that, but there arent any "religious groups" in my neighbourhood aswel...

most people here claim to be christian but they are christian in a "passive" way.. not going to church alot, not really interracting with their religion.

it doesnt play a "big" role in their life...

Which raises some big questions itself. Christianity is a way of life, not a system of intellectual beliefs. It's original, biblical, name is "The Way" for that very reason.

I understand your difficulty - though there may turn out to be groups you could get involved in if you knew where to look. It's hard to help on that one without being familiar with your neighbourhood.

In the mean time all I can suggest is to read, to pray, and to interact in forums like this.

P.S. could you (or anyone else) explain me what these "reps" and "blessings" are?

Pretty much a waste of time.

 

[Aibrean]

how can you be so sure there is a heaven? and that Jesus really lived?

I tend to think that Jesus / heaven arent real.

Your original post is " im very unsure / uncertain wether to or not to believe in God"

Coming from a Christian perspective, if you believed in God it's not going to matter in the long run. No one else has pointed that out. You HAVE to believe in Jesus too.

John 14

Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going." Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him

Your questions are irrelevant to my point. But in consideration, it's called faith.

 

[andreha]

perhaps you should have

but how do you feel about my statement?

"so you're saying that if I feel good with the answers atheism provides and if that makes me feel "love" I should follow that and be an atheist? "

thats what I said

I thought about that for a while. About atheist answers making you feel love. It may happen, I'm sure. But I'm talking the God kind of love. The thing with Christianity is that people don't really come to believe by themselves. It happens when they start searching, because of the influence of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who gets people in touch with the Godly kind of love. It does extend far beyond human love.

So, yes. I do believe that answers from the realm of atheism may lead you to feel some kind of love. But I am also convinced that the God kind of love will eventually get to you and blow your socks off. As long as you are willing to really search for answers, you are open to the influence of God's Holy Spirit. I know He has a way of getting to you when you least expect it.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

all this manner of "sins". I would think that the God of love wouldnt really care that much about them?

I would find it hard to believe in a God that isnt a bit "human", if you know what I mean. we should have room for error as God is nice and loving?

all this guiding and sinning scares me a bit to be honest..
isnt it easier to live life as you would want to? without any "sinner" rules to follow?

It is easy to live life with the very simple rules of trusting your Father in Heaven. Dad knows best. It is better to listen to him. God is quite human, for his son came to us as we are, human. That is beautiful!

The sins that I spoke about are just us not obeying his simple commands of decency, honesty and love. What is so scary about being the best that you can be? Religious sins (not following rituals, religious commands & etc.) are for religious followers, like the Pharisees and similar-mock like versions in the Christian denominations, but for just the believers of Jesus Christ, we follow Jesus. Being a believer, means a believer in Jesus Christ. We have a personal commitment and confess it to others to obey Jesus. It is a one on one relationship with God, our Father, through Jesus Christ. I am sorry to be so complicated. I don't mean to be. Believe me there are many who are much more complicated than this.

When you have something solid to stand on, it is good to keep standing all of your life. There is great freedom, when your foundation can take any thing that comes. My freedoms are yours, except that my heart is within the trust of God's, I follow the teachings of Christ. I am not perfect, but that is the beauty of faith. It is the raw will of turning from our known sins or wrong directions back to him, which is beautiful to God. Followers quickly see a problem with a sin in their lives and know that their Father has already forgiven them. Their standing hasn't changed. They fall upon the love of God and return to him.

The world is growing in a direction that only wants what it wants. It doesn't know its future, for it has no promises or faith outside of its own limitations. It is becoming not politically right to think such thoughts as to the purpose of it all, a reckoning of justice (eyes & will of superiors with God being over all)(example: the USA being such with evil rulers of nations around the world), good and evil or right and wrong really existing (the reality of morals), ... To have a faith in Jesus Christ and thus foundation to stand on while living on Earth isn't politically right. Jesus isn't a threat to freedom, but he is the only place that really offers it, for he is right and can not be moved. The darkness that comes from little sins won't grow around, on or in Jesus Christ, for his avocations of pure love and faith in the Father is within the will of God and thus protected. A person will only love themselves more if they become like God through following Jesus Christ. God is the good guy. You will truly love him, if you follow Jesus.