Unjustified Imputed Guilt

[Halbhh]

Pease explain Paul's argument in Romans 5:12-21.

It is indeed interesting how the wording leaps out at us there --

12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:-- 13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Sin is not imputed to us until there is law. That's so interesting in this context of this discussion really isn't it?

Not imputed until we are able to understand fully and then knowingly do the wrong -- after we ourselves sin: "for that all sinned" [in their own way, in their own time] (v 12). As Godsgrace101 said in post #19 then instead it would seem, eh?

Sin nature, and the death it entails, entered the world, but we were not imputed the sin of Adam. Rather, we will replicate the sin of Adam, in effect -- at some point we will break faith, trusting our own choices over God, and then sin. But we have a Redeemer, to save us from ourselves.

I realize this is all wording, and it's easy to merely argue over wording, mere word choices. To me 'original sin' for us is simply that we have a nature that tends to sin, tends to trust ourselves over God at some point, and that we each will in time consciously stray from His way (go against our conscience), so that we need saving.

 

[GodsGrace101]

There seems to be two issues here:

1. Just what of the fall (related to Adam) is passed onto the rest of humanity?

2. What is the difference between wrath earned and righteousness imputed?

Adam and the fall:
What came about as a result of Adam's transgression was the severance of fellowship from God for the rest of humanity. This is what some have coined as "sin nature". The propensity to sin is a different issue than choice to commit sin.

Propensity to sin means that the heart is naturally inclined to that end. Now will the person manifest sin in external action is a matter of conscious choice. I'm suffering from greed in my heart but do I make the choice to rob the bank? One is the manifestation of the state of the other. The dismal state of the fallen heart is what's inherited from Adam. One poster said: We do not start as a clean slate. This is true.

The wages of sin:
Punishment for sin committed is something the sinner earns. That punishment is ratcheted upon the severity of the sin committed.

If one high school student gets into a fist fight with another high school student because they both have egos bigger than the state of Texas and think they need to prove themselves; that's one type of sin. Yet if another student who thinks he needs to prove some point, goes into the school and guns down a bunch of students and staff; that is a different (and far more serious) manifestation of sin.

If never redeemed; all three students will face punishment for what they did. The one who massacred a bunch of people will face a far more serious punishment at the judgement throne than the two who fought each other.

This is the case for all who commit sin and all commit sin based on the natural inclination of the heart that is dead in trespass and sin. Some commit more heinous sin than others. And the choice to do so is a function of human conscious.

The doctrine of election:
Now the doctrine of election states that because the human heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; this requires the intervention of God to regenerate an individual unto salvation. God does this because without His intervention, no one would believe. This is because of "total depravity".

Now "total depravity" does not mean "depraved totally". The conscience is still intact. Humanity inherently knows the difference between right and wrong. We are capable of making moral and ethical decisions. That is a different issue though than faith (or trust) in God. We do not bear that naturally. That requires a supernatural awakening.

The wages of sin earned is predicated upon what is done. That is not "double predestination" because the sin that is committed is what earns the punishment. It's also not imputing Adam's personal sins to any individual who did not commit them. The flip side of this though is that if any of us were put in Adam's position, we would have done the same thing. The fall was inevitable because of the temporal nature of the created.

Now one may argue that it is "not fair" that God awakens some unto salvation and leaves others to bear the consequence of their sin. Yet if God were to do what was fair; all would suffer the wrath of God for their sin.

It would be more "fair" for ALL to suffer for Adam's sin, than that a select few are saved.

Doesn't the N.T. teach that God is fair to ALL?

Romans 2:11
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.


Acts 10:34
Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,


Ephesians 6:9
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.


and many more....

God shows no partiality to Jew, nor Greek, nor anyone individually, as He has promised eternal life to anyone that will believe in His Son.
John 3:16

 

[GodsGrace101]

Are you convicted of your sin? Do you understand that you deserve God's wrath? Have you ever been afraid of God's wrath; out of the sheer conviction that you are worthy of it?

To make one's calling and election sure (note it does say to make your "election" sure - which means to know whether or not you are indeed elect) I.E. are you obedient?

One who is awakened and seeks to walk in obedience will say to God - I don't understand election. Please help my understanding. They are not of the predisposition to argue with God over it.

To be elect only means to be chosen.
We ARE chosen.
But based on something:
Our acceptance of God and the sacrifice Jesus made for us which is a gift God offers to us IF WE ACCEPT IT.

Predestination teaches that we are chosen by God based on NOTHING...it is arbitrary and would go against the attributes of God:
It would not be loving.
It would not be merciful.
It would not be just.

 

[The Righterzpen]

We ARE chosen.
But based on something:

And what is it that you presume that you have to offer God?

MAN IS BORN IN A SINFUL STATE

"For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God" Eccl. 9:1

Notice that the righteous and the wise along with their works are in the hand of God. This is because He is the one who has made them righteous and wise.

"Behold I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Ps 51:5

This is not saying that the act of his mother conceiving him was sin, only that he acknowledges the state of his sinfulness existed long before he made any choices about acting upon what was already inherent in his heart.

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies" Ps 58:3

Now, how does a baby "speak lies" when developmentally they don't even have the patterning in the brain to assemble thought. In order to assemble thoughts; one needs to have acquired some language. Linguistic acquisition is only partially formed at two years old. Even when a person is well into puberty, there are some reasoning abilities they still lack. This is function of the development of the nervous system and God is not unjust to hold someone accountable for something they don't understand. So, what does this passage mean?

The wicked are turning aside (away - from God) at the point which they are related to the matrix (reference to conception); they waver (vacillate) as soon as they be separated from their mother's body - both setting in organization lies.

The first portion of this verse makes sense when we consider that all of Adam's decedents exist in a corrupted world from the point of their conception. They are corrupted at conception because the Earthly contributors to their physical existence are both corrupted. The breath of life that God grants to every living being is not corrupted in and of it's-self; only the entity that it animates with life is corrupted. The three portions of that entity that God's breath of life makes alive (soul, spirit and body) spring forth corrupted because they spring forth into a fallen world.

"There is none righteous, no not one: there is none that understand there is none that seek after God:... for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:9 & 23

"But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." Gal 3:22

What causes belief?

BELIEF - (same root word as faith in NT) I Pete 1:21

FAITH - I Sam. 26:22, Romans 12:3, Gal 2:16 & 20, 3:2 & 5 & 22, Ephesians 3:12, Phil 3:9, Colossians 2:12, Jude 3, 1 Thessalonians 1:3 (faith is a work) II Thessalonians 1:11

Our acceptance of God and the sacrifice Jesus made for us which is a gift God offers to us IF WE ACCEPT IT.

Except you won't seek (or "accept") God. Romans 3:11

(And no where in the Scripture does it ever tell us to "accept Christ". It tells us to repent and believe.)

THE NATURAL MAN HATES GOD

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:" Mat. 10:22

"For every one that does evil hates the light, either cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." Jon 3:20

"The world cannot hate you; but me it hates, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil" Jon 7:7

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own; but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." Jon 15:18

"I have given them thy word: and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as 1 am not of the world." Jon 1 7:14

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved" Matt 10:22, Mk 13:13, Lk 21:17

"Than shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" Matt 24:9

Predestination teaches that we are chosen by God based on NOTHING...it is arbitrary and would go against the attributes of God:

Based on nothing you have to offer God - absolutely - BECAUSE you have nothing to offer God!

Predestination is not "arbitrary" it's predicated upon Christ paying for one's sin.

JESUS DIED FOR ONLY THE ELECT

"for He shall save His people from their sin" Mt 1:21

"For many are called, but few are chosen." (elect - Strong's # 1588) Mt 22:14, 20: 16

"And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, ... " Mt. 24:31

(it's not national Israel) - Rev 7:4 -15 (144 thou.)

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom He hath chosen for his own inheritance." Ps 33: 12

Note Who's doing the "choosing" here!

"Blessed is the man whom Thou chooses, and causes to approach unto Thee that he may dwell in Thy courts:" Ps 65:4

"For He remembered His holy promise, and Abraham His servant, and He brought forth His people with joy, and His chosen with gladness." Ps 105:42 + (Rom 9: 6)

"For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto Himself, and Israel for His peculiar treasure" Ps 135:4

"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham" Is 41:8

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Is 48:10

"In whom we also have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will," Eph 1:11

"And except that the Lord had shortened these days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days. " (elect Strong's #1586) Mk 13:20

"I know whom I have chosen ... " (elect #1586) Jn 13:17

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, .. " (elect 1586) Jn 15:16

It would not be loving.
It would not be merciful.
It would not be just.

Again, justice would mean everyone would end up under the wrath of God.

So yes, I'm grateful God is "unjust".

 

[The Righterzpen]

It would be more "fair" for ALL to suffer for Adam's sin, than that a select few are saved.

Doesn't the N.T. teach that God is fair to ALL?

Romans 2:11
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.

Acts 10:34
Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

Ephesians 6:9
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

and many more....

God shows no partiality to Jew, nor Greek, nor anyone individually, as He has promised eternal life to anyone that will believe in His Son.
John 3:16

Election has nothing to do with Jew or Gentile. God is not a respecter of persons. He shows no partiality to anyone based on race, national origin, gender or any such thing.

And note: the context of the verses you quoted are talking about there being no difference between Jew and Gentile - for God has torn down the wall of partition through the sacrifice of Christ.

Context!

Everyone on this planet has just as much "chance" of being one of the elect as anyone else. SO; if you are elect - consider yourself "lucky" that you "won" the greatest "lottery" on planet Earth!

Again, the disposition of those who've been awakened to their need for redemption; is NOT to argue with God over election!

 

[GodsGrace101]

And what is it that you presume that you have to offer God?

MAN IS BORN IN A SINFUL STATE

"For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God" Eccl. 9:1

Notice that the righteous and the wise along with their works are in the hand of God. This is because He is the one who has made them righteous and wise.

"Behold I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Ps 51:5

This is not saying that the act of his mother conceiving him was sin, only that he acknowledges the state of his sinfulness existed long before he made any choices about acting upon what was already inherent in his heart.

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies" Ps 58:3

Now, how does a baby "speak lies" when developmentally they don't even have the patterning in the brain to assemble thought. In order to assemble thoughts; one needs to have acquired some language. Linguistic acquisition is only partially formed at two years old. Even when a person is well into puberty, there are some reasoning abilities they still lack. This is function of the development of the nervous system and God is not unjust to hold someone accountable for something they don't understand. So, what does this passage mean?

The wicked are turning aside (away - from God) at the point which they are related to the matrix (reference to conception); they waver (vacillate) as soon as they be separated from their mother's body - both setting in organization lies.

The first portion of this verse makes sense when we consider that all of Adam's decedents exist in a corrupted world from the point of their conception. They are corrupted at conception because the Earthly contributors to their physical existence are both corrupted. The breath of life that God grants to every living being is not corrupted in and of it's-self; only the entity that it animates with life is corrupted. The three portions of that entity that God's breath of life makes alive (soul, spirit and body) spring forth corrupted because they spring forth into a fallen world.

"There is none righteous, no not one: there is none that understand there is none that seek after God:... for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:9 & 23

"But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." Gal 3:22

What causes belief?

BELIEF - (same root word as faith in NT) I Pete 1:21

FAITH - I Sam. 26:22, Romans 12:3, Gal 2:16 & 20, 3:2 & 5 & 22, Ephesians 3:12, Phil 3:9, Colossians 2:12, Jude 3, 1 Thessalonians 1:3 (faith is a work) II Thessalonians 1:11



Except you won't seek (or "accept") God. Romans 3:11

(And no where in the Scripture does it ever tell us to "accept Christ". It tells us to repent and believe.)

THE NATURAL MAN HATES GOD

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:" Mat. 10:22

"For every one that does evil hates the light, either cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." Jon 3:20

"The world cannot hate you; but me it hates, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil" Jon 7:7

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own; but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." Jon 15:18

"I have given them thy word: and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as 1 am not of the world." Jon 1 7:14

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved" Matt 10:22, Mk 13:13, Lk 21:17

"Than shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" Matt 24:9



Based on nothing you have to offer God - absolutely - BECAUSE you have nothing to offer God!

Predestination is not "arbitrary" it's predicated upon Christ paying for one's sin.

JESUS DIED FOR ONLY THE ELECT

"for He shall save His people from their sin" Mt 1:21

"For many are called, but few are chosen." (elect - Strong's # 1588) Mt 22:14, 20: 16

"And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, ... " Mt. 24:31

(it's not national Israel) - Rev 7:4 -15 (144 thou.)

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom He hath chosen for his own inheritance." Ps 33: 12

Note Who's doing the "choosing" here!

"Blessed is the man whom Thou chooses, and causes to approach unto Thee that he may dwell in Thy courts:" Ps 65:4

"For He remembered His holy promise, and Abraham His servant, and He brought forth His people with joy, and His chosen with gladness." Ps 105:42 + (Rom 9: 6)

"For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto Himself, and Israel for His peculiar treasure" Ps 135:4

"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham" Is 41:8

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Is 48:10

"In whom we also have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will," Eph 1:11

"And except that the Lord had shortened these days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days. " (elect Strong's #1586) Mk 13:20

"I know whom I have chosen ... " (elect #1586) Jn 13:17

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, .. " (elect 1586) Jn 15:16



Again, justice would mean everyone would end up under the wrath of God.

So yes, I'm grateful God is "unjust".

Well, you've hit all the calvinist points,,,did a good deal of carpet bombing and I certainly am not here to change your mind about God.

What I know for sure is that God loves His creation and this is clearly stated in the N.T.

You can keep thinking and believing that justice means God would send EVERYONE to hell, what I'm telling you is that God wants to send NO ONE to hell and He made it possible for us to save ourselves after the fall of Adam...

He loves us so much He even gave us a way out.

 

[The Righterzpen]

He made it possible for us to save ourselves

I'm sorry my dear - but you have a works gospel.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Election has nothing to do with Jew or Gentile. God is not a respecter of persons. He shows no partiality to anyone based on race, national origin, gender or any such thing.

And note: the context of the verses you quoted are talking about there being no difference between Jew and Gentile - for God has torn down the wall of partition through the sacrifice of Christ.

Context!

Everyone on this planet has just as much "chance" of being one of the elect as anyone else. SO; if you are elect - consider yourself "lucky" that you "won" the greatest "lottery" on planet Earth!

Again, the disposition of those who've been awakened to their need for redemption; is NOT to argue with God over election!

Election has nothing to do with an individual anyway.
When the N.T. speaks of election it's speaking about CORPORATE election...having elected the Jewish people from whom God would reveal Himself.
Study Romans chapters 9 to 11.

We don't go to heaven based on a "lottery" as you've stated. We go to heaven based on whether or not our spirit is in tune with God's Spirit and anyone can CHOOSE to accept the salvation God offers us.

God is not a lottery agent.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I'm sorry my dear - but you have a works gospel.

Well my dear....
it certainly beats the one YOU are following...
A non-existent gospel of BAD NEWS.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well, you've hit all the calvinist points,,,did a good deal of carpet bombing and I certainly am not here to change your mind about God.

What I know for sure is that God loves His creation and this is clearly stated in the N.T.

You can keep thinking and believing that justice means God would send EVERYONE to hell, what I'm telling you is that God wants to send NO ONE to hell and He made it possible for us to save ourselves after the fall of Adam...

He loves us so much He even gave us a way out.

GOD HATES EVIL MEN

"These six things doth the Lord hate; yea, seven are an abomination unto him: a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among brethren." Prov 6: 16

Notice the context of the things it states that God is hating. These are stated first as aspects of behavior, than parts of the body and than whole individuals. I know it is a common belief today to say "God hates the sin and loves the sinner!"; but if we look at this passage we see that is not what it's saying.

Take a moment to consider the contradiction of that idea in the context of salvation. If God loves all sinners, how effectual is that love if some of those sinners end up under His wrath? That is like a negligent parent telling their 4 year old "We love you honey; now you can go play in the traffic!" Just as the love of a parent is manifest by protecting a child from their own childishness; so the love of God is manifest by protecting the believer, not only from God's wrath; but death it's-self befalling the individual before redemption has taken place.

"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way and the froward mouth do I hate." Prov 8: 13

"The foolish shall not stand in your sight: you hate all workers of iniquity" Ps 5:6

"I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them my enemies" Ps 139:22

"And I shall set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you ...And I will destroy you high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you ...

And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God" Lev 26:11&30&44

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Rom 9:13

Now all these statements of God hating sinners may seem strange to us in the context of the purpose of Jesus's incarnation. Jesus came to seek and to save sinners, so how can he hate them too? This doesn't seem to make much sense until we consider the notion of substitutionary atonement it's-self.

First of all, we must realize that these statements in the Hebrew Scriptures are in deed in the conscious thoughts of incarnated God. There were people Jesus hated with a perfect hatred and counted as his enemies. Looking at the gospels we see that more often than not, many of the Scribes and Pharisees were on the receiving end of Jesus's human anger. He called them hypocrites and said they were of their father the devil. (John 8:44 - Thus by deductive reasoning we can conclude that they are not children of God.) Now if all sinners are in the same predicament; how could he hate some and not others?

The second consideration we must take into account is that Jesus's "love" (as opposed to his hate) for an individual was predicated upon weather or not their sin would be redeemed. Those whom he would redeem were (probably in most cases) revealed to Jesus by the Father, through the Spirit. Without this redemption taking place he'd have no basis to love any of us, because his holiness would prevent it.

Now of course we see that there were people who would ultimately perish that Jesus displayed human pity for. The most obvious example was Judas. So, what was the basis of his pity if it wasn't out of love? That answer comes in God's righteousness and moral character. He doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked, (Ezek 33:11) even despite the fact that His righteousness still demands a payment.

I'm not sure I can explain this "theologically"; as much as maybe I have a certain personal understanding of it. I'm a veteran who did clean up after Desert Storm. I suffered physically, mentally and emotionally because of the war and I always figured I'd be overjoyed on that one day when I finally heard Saddam Hussein was dead. When that day did come; I had a reaction I'd never expected. I cried. I cried a lot; but not because he was dead, nor because I felt his death vindicated the suffering myself and others had endured. Yes, I was relieved that he was no longer a threat to his own people; but I also bore a certain dread for what I knew he would face on the other side of eternity. Couple this with the understanding that I too should suffer wrath for my own sin; made me (too) not take pleasure in the death of Saddam Hussein.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well my dear....
it certainly beats the one YOU are following...
A non-existent gospel of BAD NEWS.

Well, you have the "choice" to disengage the conversation!

 

[The Righterzpen]

Election has nothing to do with an individual anyway.
When the N.T. speaks of election it's speaking about CORPORATE election...having elected the Jewish people from whom God would reveal Himself.
Study Romans chapters 9 to 11.

We don't go to heaven based on a "lottery" as you've stated. We go to heaven based on whether or not our spirit is in tune with God's Spirit and anyone can CHOOSE to accept the salvation God offers us.

God is not a lottery agent.

"Many are called but few are chosen" is not talking about a corporate entity.

And as far as "your spirit" goes - if left to your own devices - you will never be in tune with God's Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace101]

GOD HATES EVIL MEN

"These six things doth the Lord hate; yea, seven are an abomination unto him: a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among brethren." Prov 6: 16

Notice the context of the things it states that God is hating. These are stated first as aspects of behavior, than parts of the body and than whole individuals. I know it is a common belief today to say "God hates the sin and loves the sinner!"; but if we look at this passage we see that is not what it's saying.

Take a moment to consider the contradiction of that idea in the context of salvation. If God loves all sinners, how effectual is that love if some of those sinners end up under His wrath? That is like a negligent parent telling their 4 year old "We love you honey; now you can go play in the traffic!" Just as the love of a parent is manifest by protecting a child from their own childishness; so the love of God is manifest by protecting the believer, not only from God's wrath; but death it's-self befalling the individual before redemption has taken place.

"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way and the froward mouth do I hate." Prov 8: 13

"The foolish shall not stand in your sight: you hate all workers of iniquity" Ps 5:6

"I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them my enemies" Ps 139:22

"And I shall set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you ...And I will destroy you high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you ...

And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God" Lev 26:11&30&44

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Rom 9:13

Now all these statements of God hating sinners may seem strange to us in the context of the purpose of Jesus's incarnation. Jesus came to seek and to save sinners, so how can he hate them too? This doesn't seem to make much sense until we consider the notion of substitutionary atonement it's-self.

First of all, we must realize that these statements in the Hebrew Scriptures are in deed in the conscious thoughts of incarnated God. There were people Jesus hated with a perfect hatred and counted as his enemies. Looking at the gospels we see that more often than not, many of the Scribes and Pharisees were on the receiving end of Jesus's human anger. He called them hypocrites and said they were of their father the devil. (John 8:44 - Thus by deductive reasoning we can conclude that they are not children of God.) Now if all sinners are in the same predicament; how could he hate some and not others?

The second consideration we must take into account is that Jesus's "love" (as opposed to his hate) for an individual was predicated upon weather or not their sin would be redeemed. Those whom he would redeem were (probably in most cases) revealed to Jesus by the Father, through the Spirit. Without this redemption taking place he'd have no basis to love any of us, because his holiness would prevent it.

Now of course we see that there were people who would ultimately perish that Jesus displayed human pity for. The most obvious example was Judas. So, what was the basis of his pity if it wasn't out of love? That answer comes in God's righteousness and moral character. He doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked, (Ezek 33:11) even despite the fact that His righteousness still demands a payment.

I'm not sure I can explain this "theologically"; as much as maybe I have a certain personal understanding of it. I'm a veteran who did clean up after Desert Storm. I suffered physically, mentally and emotionally because of the war and I always figured I'd be overjoyed on that one day when I finally heard Saddam Hussein was dead. When that day did come; I had a reaction I'd never expected. I cried. I cried a lot; but not because he was dead, nor because I felt his death vindicated the suffering myself and others had endured. Yes, I was relieved that he was no longer a threat to his own people; but I also bore a certain dread for what I knew he would face on the other side of eternity. Couple this with the understanding that I too should suffer wrath for my own sin; made me (too) not take pleasure in the death of Saddam Hussein.

R, with your curt statement to me I thought you were a girl...only girls say things like that "dear" statement you made to me.

First, I'd like to say how sorry I am that persons such as yourself have to suffer because of war. Sounds like a cliche, but I am truly very disturbed by this....man's inhumanity to man - as they say.

Second, I'd be very happy to have a decent and civil discussion with you about your theology...but you really have to focus in on one thing at a time.

I happen to agree with you that God loves His creation in a general way, but He cannot love those that lead sinful lives and are far from Him.

It's very late here, if you want to continue tomorrow, I'm good with it...but I can only handle civil persons and no more of this "dear" stuff....

 

[The Righterzpen]

R, with your curt statement to me I thought you were a girl...only girls say things like that "dear" statement you made to me.

First, I'd like to say how sorry I am that persons such as yourself have to suffer because of war. Sounds like a cliche, but I am truly very disturbed by this....man's inhumanity to man - as they say.

Second, I'd be very happy to have a decent and civil discussion with you about your theology...but you really have to focus in on one thing at a time.

I happen to agree with you that God loves His creation in a general way, but He cannot love those that lead sinful lives and are far from Him.

It's very late here, if you want to continue tomorrow, I'm good with it...but I can only handle civil persons and no more of this "dear" stuff....

I am female. (There are female veterans - you must realize!)

 

[GodsGrace101]

"Many are called but few are chosen" is not talking about a corporate entity.

And as far as "your spirit" goes - if left to your own devices - you will never be in tune with God's Spirit.

Yes, but WHY are they chosen?
The N.T. tells us precisely HOW to be chosen by God.
By believing in Jesus
By accepting His free gift of Salvation
By obeying God's commandments (you might call that works...I call that obeying Almighty God).

Also, you mention the word corporate but the verse you posted is in Mathew....
Corporate salvation is in Romans chapters 9 to 11.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I am female. (There are female veterans - you must realize!)

Wow.
Am I ever wrong?!
It's funny how a person could kind of tell what gender they're speaking to.

Sorry about that. Of course I know there are female in the military. I was actually alive and kicking back when they were accepted...

 

[The Righterzpen]

Wow.
Am I ever wrong?!
It's funny how a person could kind of tell what gender they're speaking to.

Sorry about that. Of course I know there are female in the military. I was actually alive and kicking back when they were accepted...

Apology accepted.

You were born before 1948? You do not seem to me to be someone who is that old.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Apology accepted.

You were born before 1948? You do not seem to me to be someone who is that old.

That old!
I'm a young chick born in 1946.
So, maybe we could discuss tomorrow,,,
I don't like to argue and debate (although I guess it is kind of a debate).

 

[GodsGrace101]

@The Righterzpen

I'm closing down.
If you'd like, pick one of your topics in that long post...
If not...friends like before.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well my dear....
it certainly beats the one YOU are following...
A non-existent gospel of BAD NEWS.

And you consider that a "civil response" - (Just curious)?

Yes, but WHY are they chosen?

He doesn't tell us why one is chosen. He only tells us those elect are not chosen because they did anything. And that they were chosen from the foundations of the world.

The N.T. tells us precisely HOW to be chosen by God.

No it doesn't.

By believing in Jesus
By accepting His free gift of Salvation
By obeying God's commandments (you might call that works...I call that obeying Almighty God).

These are manifestations of one having been redeemed - not prerequisites to.

Also, you mention the word corporate but the verse you posted is in Mathew....
Corporate salvation is in Romans chapters 9 to 11.

Romans 9-11 is talking about who is really Israel and what is the body of Christ. The elect of Israel and the body of Christ are one and the same group of people. And that group of people is made up of those who are individually atoned for.