Unjustified Imputed Guilt

[The Righterzpen]

If predestination were true then why in John 15:1-10 would Jesus warn his 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to abide in Him if they are incapable of failing to abide? The consequences that result in loss of salvation according to verses 2 and 6. Surely these faithful 11 apostles were in fact chosen by God as Jesus plainly stated in John 15:16.

Is it a warning issued as a measuring rod to know whether or not you are actually in faith; or is He really saying you can lose your salvation?

If you pick option #2; you make Jesus a liar because he said "All that the Father gives to me, I will lose nothing but will raise it up on the last day."

If Jesus paid for one of your sins, He paid for all of them.

I don't buy the notion floating around that the only unpardonable sin is unbelief; because we are all in a state of unbelief at one point or another.

 

[The Righterzpen]

There are no levels of sin. There is only sin or no sin. If you are guilty of breaking one law you are guilty of breaking all of them. If you accept Christ as your Savior and you abide in Him all your sins will be forgiven. If your the nicest guy in the world and never hurt a single fly but don’t believe in Jesus you will burn in the lake of fire.

Luke 12:47-49

 

[redleghunter]

As for cases in point take for example the theory of Unconditional Election in which people are fated to eternal damnation prior to them even being born, and thus prior to them committing sin. Reasonable people recognize that as being inherently unjust.

This is not what unconditional election means.

Many hold to a version of imputed guilt whereby God reckons people guilty of crimes they haven't actually committed.

That's not even a theological term.

Many Christians reckon people born guilty of Adam's sin. Adam's sin was Adam's sin, not the sin of others who had not even been born. Likewise many think the God pretended that Jesus was guilty of the sins of the world, crimes that he didn't actually commit, and that God consequently pour wrath on him, knowing that he was innocent.

Let's see what Paul actually said:

Romans 5: NASB

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

By Adam's sin death spread to all men. And death nevertheless reigned from Adam until Moses with without the Law. Pretty clear we all suffer the consequences of the one sin of Adam. Notice Paul even says "even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." Yet all men suffer the consequences of that sin of Adam. That's why most theologians call it 'original sin.' The origin for the penalty of this sin is death and we all die.

Continuing with Romans chapter 5:

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​

Pretty clear here as Paul builds a parallel between what condemns us "the transgression of the one" and what saves us the gift by grace through Jesus Christ.

More from Chapter 5 as Paul concludes his points in no uncertain terms:

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Pretty clear we all suffer the consequences of the one sin of Adam.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And that was because Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundations of the world. If it weren't for the atonement, none of that would have been possible.

Why did Jesus and the apostles go around telling people to believe if they are incapable of believing if God has not chosen them and they are incapable of not believing if God has chosen them? Wouldn’t they just be wasting their time either way. A person who is not chosen by God cannot believe simply by being told to do so and a person who is chosen by God can’t fail to believe simply because they weren’t told to do so.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Then we agree that man has not been out of fellowship since Adam’s fall. So where does that put us with total depravity?

Those who God has awoken unto redemption have not been out of fellowship. Yet the Scripture does declare that there are vessels fitted unto wrath.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Why did Jesus and the apostles go around telling people to believe if they are incapable of believing if God has not chosen them and they are incapable of not believing if God has chosen them? Wouldn’t they just be wasting their time either way. A person who is not chosen by God cannot believe simply by being told to do so and a person who is chosen by God can’t fail to believe simply because they weren’t told to do so.

You have no idea who the elect are; so you preach to every creature; because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

One who has not the written revelation of Scripture is still accountable to God via the witness of the creation since "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven...."

Now the witness of creation is a little more difficult to interpret than someone explaining to you - Hey, there is a Messiah and this is what He did.

Not that people can not be saved by the witness of creation alone; they can. They just have no assurance because they don't know what the Messiah actually did.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is it a warning issued as a measuring rod to know whether or not you are actually in faith; or is He really saying you can lose your salvation?

If you pick option #2; you make Jesus a liar because he said "All that the Father gives to me, I will lose nothing but will raise it up on the last day."

If Jesus paid for one of your sins, He paid for all of them.

I don't buy the notion floating around that the only unpardonable sin is unbelief; because we are all in a state of unbelief at one point or another.

We’ll verse 2 says He (The Father) cuts off every branch “in Christ” that does not bear fruit. That certainly appears to result in loss of salvation unless the person repents. Verse 6 says anyone (believers included) who does not abide (remain) in Me will be cast (thrown away without care or regard) away to wither then cast into the fire to be burned.

Not to mention Romans 11 Paul explains that branches who are grafted in can be cut off and grafted back in again if they repent.

Ephesians 5 Paul warns children of God (referred to in Ephesians 2) of living a sinful lifestyle and receiving God’s wrath on the sons of disobedience which is they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Those who God has awoken unto redemption have not been out of fellowship. Yet the Scripture does declare that there are vessels fitted unto wrath.

Those vessels which he long endured beforehand friend. He used those as examples to show His night & glory.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You have no idea who the elect are; so you preach to every creature; because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

One who has not the written revelation of Scripture is still accountable to God via the witness of the creation since "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven...."

Now the witness of creation is a little more difficult to interpret than someone explaining to you - Hey, there is a Messiah and this is what He did.

Not that people can not be saved by the witness of creation alone; they can. They just have no assurance because they don't know what the Messiah actually did.

Still the point remain why preach to those who cannot be saved or to those who cannot lose their salvation? Do you see the dilemma here? Will those who were chosen by God lose their salvation if they aren’t preached to?

 

[The Righterzpen]

We’ll verse 2 says He (The Father) cuts off every branch “in Christ” that does not bear fruit. That certainly appears to result in loss of salvation unless the person repents. Verse 6 says anyone (believers included) who does not abide (remain) in Me will be cast (thrown away without care or regard) away to wither then cast into the fire to be burned.

Not to mention Romans 11 Paul explains that branches who are grafted in can be cut off and grafted back in again if they repent.

Ephesians 5 Paul warns children of God (referred to in Ephesians 2) of living a sinful lifestyle and receiving God’s wrath on the sons of disobedience which is they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Define what "in Christ" means in these contexts.

Is He talking about those of the genetic lineage of Israel, or is He talking about those predestine unto redemption? Is He talking about those who claim to be believers as opposed to those who really are? Context is important.

If you believe you can lose your salvation; where is your trust in Christ? (Again, supernatural awakening!)

 

[The Righterzpen]

Those vessels which he long endured beforehand friend. He used those as examples to show His night & glory.

Yet they were still fitted unto destruction. Why God does something does not change the position they remained in before Him.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Still the point remain why preach to those who cannot be saved or to those who cannot lose their salvation? Do you see the dilemma here? Will those who were chosen by God lose their salvation if they aren’t preached to?

No dilemma - you have no idea who the elect are. That's God's business. You need to be concerned with making your own calling and election sure - obey God in preaching the gospel and let Him worry about the rest!

 

[redleghunter]

That's guilt by association, like putting children in prison for the crimes of their father. Reasonable people recognize that as inherently unjust.

Was it unjust for Christ to carry all those sins for us and the have the righteousness of God imputed to us?

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Define what "in Christ" means in these contexts.

Is He talking about those of the genetic lineage of Israel, or is He talking about those predestine unto redemption? Is He talking about those who claim to be believers as opposed to those who really are? Context is important.

If you believe you can lose your salvation; where is your trust in Christ? (Again, supernatural awakening!)

The term “in Christ” means exactly what it sounds like. They are a believer in Christ but they are not obeying His commandments. As a result of their laziness or rebellion they will be cut off from the vine. You can’t be cut off from the vine if your not attached to it.

 

[redleghunter]

You fail to interpret scripture in light of God's character.

You have failed to present the pertinent Scriptures to support your OP assertions.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yet they were still fitted unto destruction. Why God does something does not change the position they remained in before Him.

They are fitted into distruction because of their own disobedience and unwillingness to repent so which God has already foreseen beforehand. God uses such people to make examples of His might & glory.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[The Righterzpen]

The term “in Christ” means exactly what it sounds like. They are a believer in Christ but they are not obeying His commandments. As a result of their laziness or rebellion they will be cut off from the vine. You can’t be cut off from the vine if your not attached to it.

What someone claims and what God knows of their heart are two different matters.

Not all who say unto me Lord, Lord did we not ...... And I will say: Be gone from me you workers of iniquity, for I NEVER KNEW YOU!

Matthew 7:22-24

 

[BNR32FAN]

You need to be concerned with making your own calling and election sure

Wait I thought I was saved by God’s election? That’s what predestination means. So how could I possibly “make my own calling and election sure”?

 

[The Righterzpen]

They are fitted into distruction because of their own disobedience and unwillingness to repent so which God has already foreseen beforehand. God uses such people to make examples of His might & glory.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Yes, and this fact does not deny the state of men's hearts that they will not repent if it were not for God's awakening them to that need.

For it's the goodness of God that leads one to repentance. Romans 2:4

 

[The Righterzpen]

Wait I thought I was saved by God’s election? That’s what predestination means. So how could I possibly “make my own calling and election sure”?

Are you convicted of your sin? Do you understand that you deserve God's wrath? Have you ever been afraid of God's wrath; out of the sheer conviction that you are worthy of it?

To make one's calling and election sure (note it does say to make your "election" sure - which means to know whether or not you are indeed elect) I.E. are you obedient?

One who is awakened and seeks to walk in obedience will say to God - I don't understand election. Please help my understanding. They are not of the predisposition to argue with God over it.