Universe is not homogeneous as far as we know

dad · Jun 23, 2011

Tiberius said:
You really think that there is no mechanism to prevent such a mistake?

No one has shown it to me if it exists. And I have talked to some that actually knew their way around the fishbowl. You allude to it, so now you are asked to show us all what this 'mechanism' is!??

I think you just stepped in a pile.

Here you go again, taking your conclusion as a premise. Do you know how to recognise circular logic?

Yes. Read a science article.

The third expanse?

You got any evidence for this? Or is it just another guess?

Funny you should mention that. I plan to do a thread on it.

Ah, the Bible is the exception, isn't it? Simply because you just want it to be true, so you create excuses for it.

I never made the conditions. God did.

Joh 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Answer the question please. Show me some ancient scroll or something that we can VERIFY as being peter's first hand account written in his own hand.

So now you DO doubt Peter existed! Ha. Wow.

No there aren't. Shall we start a thread on this?

You might want to. Hopefully some people will help you on that one. I already know.

Then how do you know?

How do I know that we had records passed down? You serious? What do you think the bible was made from? It was compiled records we had already. They were not written after the fact.

VehementisDominus · Jun 23, 2011

dad said:
FYI the bible is the record from God to man. There is no other.

Ok, then, it should be easy to externally verify one of these prophecies - if it's such an accurate record of the supernatural.

Supplying a prophecy that meets my criteria should be a breeze.

Until you can - they're not unreasonable critera - then neither myself nor anyone else has any reason to take your claims seriously.

No, what you are trying to do is say that there was no captivity, Resurrection, Jerusalem, or last week.

What I'm trying to say, is that using prophecies in the Bible to verify the prophecies in the Bible that are ONLY FULFILLED WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF THE BIBLE is stupid. It's like verifying the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time by saying that the prophecy that IS ONLY FULFILLED WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF OOT.

The amazing prophesies of the bible foretold all the kingdoms

1) Self-fulfilling.
2) Show me where it mentions the Aztecs or the Australian Aboriginies.

and hundreds and hundreds of things. You need to look into it. It is no more negotiable of in question than motherhood, or gravity..

Well, it is until you can produce one of those "hundereds and hundereds" that matches the criteria, which I set out to establish the accuracy of a prophecy and whether it's verifiable as a genuine, divinely-inspired prophecy, or bronze age nonsense.

Greg1234 · Jun 23, 2011

VehementisDominus said:
What I'm trying to say, is that using prophecies in the Bible to verify the prophecies in the Bible that are ONLY FULFILLED WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF THE BIBLE is stupid. It's like verifying the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time by saying that the prophecy that IS ONLY FULFILLED WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF OOT.

The only problem is that the scenario where ignorance is writing the bible is your doctrine and beliefs. This scenario is regarded as fiction and any reference to "Zelda" is irrelevant.

Chalnoth · Jun 23, 2011

Greg1234 said:
The only problem is that the scenario where ignorance is writing the bible is your doctrine and beliefs. This scenario is regarded as fiction and any reference to "Zelda" is irrelevant.

And how would you show that the Bible isn't fiction?

Tiberius · Jun 23, 2011

dad said:
No one has shown it to me if it exists. And I have talked to some that actually knew their way around the fishbowl. You allude to it, so now you are asked to show us all what this 'mechanism' is!??

If you had bothered to read the links I posted earlier that explained how radio dating works, perhaps you'd understand the self-checking mechanisms that it uses.

Yes. Read a science article.

Then you don't know how to recognise it.

Funny you should mention that. I plan to do a thread on it.

That will be fun.

I never made the conditions. God did.

Joh 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Using the Bible to show that the Bible is accurate. And you claim you can recognise circular logic? My goodness...

So now you DO doubt Peter existed! Ha. Wow.

*Sigh* Once again you are reading what you want, not what I actually write. I am saying that we have no way to verify the authorship of any of the four gospels.

You might want to. Hopefully some people will help you on that one. I already know.

I don't have time at the moment, but I shall. I'll post a link in this thread.

How do I know that we had records passed down? You serious? What do you think the bible was made from? It was compiled records we had already. They were not written after the fact.

*Sigh* Once again you are answering a question I never asked.

I am asking if the people who saw it and wrote accounts straight away, how do you know about it if the first publication of those accounts was not made until decades later?

VehementisDominus · Jun 23, 2011

Chalnoth said:
And how would you show that the Bible isn't fiction?

By the prophecies written in the Bible that come true only in the Bible, obviously.

VehementisDominus · Jun 23, 2011

Greg1234 said:
The only problem is that the scenario where ignorance is writing the bible is your doctrine and beliefs. This scenario is regarded as fiction and any reference to "Zelda" is irrelevant.

You missed the point completely.

X prophecises that Y will happen, but Y can only be shown to've happened in X, therefore X must be true.

The prophecy Dad was referring to and the prophecy in Zelda can only be shown to've occured CONTAINED WITHIN THEIR OWN SOURCE.

It's like...

Once upon a time there was a magic boy called Billy, Billy prophecised that beings from an interdimensional plane of existence will invade Earth. 40 years later, the beings invade.

This story is true, because the prophecy came true.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

The beings invaded IN THE STORY, that prophecy is entirely self contained, there's absolutely no external verification.

It's exactly the same as the prophecy Dad was pointing out - completely self-contained in the Bible, with absolutely zilch when it comes to external verification.

I honestly don't know how I can put it ny simpler. Before you, or anyone, comments n this, repeat what I'm saying in your own words, so I at least know you understand.

Greg1234 · Jun 23, 2011

VehementisDominus said:
You missed the point completely.

No I didn't. It is your belief that ignorance wrote the bible.. You've simply added a branch to the tree- ignorance wrote the bible *and* the prophecies are comparable to books entertaining ignorance. Any evidence outside the bible and another branch grows. For ex, ignorance wrote the bible *and* Harry Potter also mentions England which is outside of Harry Potter. He presents another and another one comes. It's one of the most basic traps where a theist continues to go in circles around your ill-fated whims and fancies. What I am telling you is that your tree is irrelevant, your branches, dead.

VehementisDominus · Jun 23, 2011

Greg1234 said:
No I didn't. It is your belief that ignorance wrote the bible.. You've simply added a branch to the tree- ignorance wrote the bible *and* the prophecies are comparable to books entertaining ignorance. Any evidence outside the bible and another branch grows. For ex, ignorance wrote the bible *and* Harry Potter also mentions England which is outside of Harry Potter. He presents another and another one comes. It's one of the most basic traps where a theist continues to go in circles around your ill-fated whims and fancies. What I am telling you is that your tree is irrelevant, your branches, dead.

Again, you've completely failed to grasp what I'm saying.

Rephrase what I'm saying, in your own words. Show me that I'm wrong and you do understand, because you're not actually addressing the point I'm making.

I don't have time for strawmen.

dad · Jun 23, 2011

Tiberius said:
If you had bothered to read the links I posted earlier that explained how radio dating works, perhaps you'd understand the self-checking mechanisms that it uses.

What a cop out. Tell us in your words what that self checking mechanism is. Nonsense.

Using the Bible to show that the Bible is accurate. And you claim you can recognise circular logic? My goodness...

Yes. The bible is like an open door. Those billions that have walked through found proofs in their life and all around. Looking at a door from afar doesn't do it.

*Sigh* Once again you are reading what you want, not what I actually write. I am saying that we have no way to verify the authorship of any of the four gospels.

No way to refute it. No reason to doubt it.

I am asking if the people who saw it and wrote accounts straight away, how do you know about it if the first publication of those accounts was not made until decades later?

Well, some were. Revelations for example. John was an old man. He did have to write it down, an angel told him to! He also didn't live decades, so we know he did it fast.

Chalnoth · Jun 23, 2011

dad said:
What a cop out. Tell us in your words what that self checking mechanism is. Nonsense.

One way involves comparing the ratios of radioactive and non-radioactive isotopes to correct for differences in the amount of initial material. Another way involves examining crystals that do not form in the presence of the daughter product, but only in the presence of the original, radioactive material.

dad · Jun 23, 2011

Chalnoth said:
And how would you show that the Bible isn't fiction?

People swore to it. Died to attest it. Preserved it sacredly. Prophesies are already fulfilled for the most part. Millions of lives changed, and etc etc.

dad · Jun 23, 2011

Chalnoth said:
One way involves comparing the ratios of radioactive and non-radioactive isotopes to correct for differences in the amount of initial material.

So tell us, how would we know what daughter material was already there before decay started if there was some? Or not? Exactly?

Another way involves examining crystals that do not form in the presence of the daughter product, but only in the presence of the original, radioactive material.

So how crystals NOW form. Got ya. Unless you first proved a present state in the past existed how would that matter?

Chalnoth · Jun 23, 2011

dad said:
People swore to it. Died to attest it. Preserved it sacredly.

So what? You can say the same about basically every other holy book. They can't all be right.

dad said:
Prophesies are already fulfilled for the most part.

As has been mentioned by others, you can't show that by looking outside the Bible.

dad said:
Millions of lives changed, and etc etc.

Again, same can be said about basically every other holy book. They can't all be right.

VehementisDominus · Jun 23, 2011

dad said:
People swore to it. Died to attest it. Preserved it sacredly.

Just goes to show how gullible people can be.

Prophesies are already fulfilled for the most part.

Then give me one that fits the criteria I mentioned in an earlier post, if there really is something to these prophecies then it should be easy. It's obvious that you can't - why else would you keep dancing around it?

Millions of lives changed, and etc etc.

Islam has changed millions of lives.
Hinduism has changed millions of lives.
Taoism has changed millions of lives.
Buddhism has changed millions of lives.

What's your point?

dad · Jun 24, 2011

Chalnoth said:
So what? You can say the same about basically every other holy book. They can't all be right.

No, only the bible has Christ risen. Only the bible has the detailed creation account. Only the bible has fulfilled prophesies in bulk.

As has been mentioned by others, you can't show that by looking outside the Bible.

Or not.

dad · Jun 24, 2011

VehementisDominus said:
Then give me one that fits the criteria I mentioned in an earlier post, if there really is something to these prophecies then it should be easy. It's obvious that you can't - why else would you keep dancing around it?

If it is an issue to you, learn about them. They are undeniable. Astounding. Mostly already fulfilled.

Now, any on topic comments to make?

Davian · Jun 24, 2011

dad said:
...

Now, any on topic comments to make?

Sure.

dad said:
I doubt that earth laws and forces and light and space exist across the universe.

Putting aside your bible for now, what reasons do you have to doubt that they are consistent? Can these be demonstrated or shown as astronomical observations?

dad · Jun 24, 2011

Davian said:
Sure.

Putting aside your bible for now, what reasons do you have to doubt that they are consistent? Can these be demonstrated or shown as astronomical observations?

Consistent with earth? There is no reason to assume they are, that I have seen. The association in the bible and ancient cultures of stars with spirits also is inconsistent with the assumed physical only nature so called science has belief imposed on the great unknown expanses.

Davian · Jun 24, 2011

Davian said:
Sure.

Putting aside your bible for now, what reasons do you have to doubt that they are consistent? Can these be demonstrated or shown as astronomical observations?

dad said:
Consistent with earth? There is no reason to assume they are, that I have seen. The association in the bible and ancient cultures of stars with spirits also is inconsistent with the assumed physical only nature so called science has belief imposed on the great unknown expanses.

So none then.

As I said, lets leave ancient cultures and superstition out of the equation.

If the laws were not consistent, we should see it when we do astronomy, so you are incorrect on that point.

Universe is not homogeneous as far as we know

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