Universalism

[JM]

Universalism. Best polemic against it...GO!

 

[Hentenza]

Simple. Some people are NOT saved.

 

[prov1810]

Luke 17 - The days of the Son of Man will be like the times of Noah and Lot - few were saved.

Luke 13:23-24 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

Matt 7:13-14 13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold, “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity, We would have become like Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah.”

 

[JM]

A buddy of mine has a work relationship with a "Reformed" Elder who believes in Universalism. It seems the Elder's arguments are having an influence on my friend. Without preparing I mentioned Romans 9, one was loved and other was not. I see how that was simplistic compared to the intellectual leaps made by the Universalist so I thought I should prepare better for our next discussion.

Is the underlying presupposition of Universalism that God loves all people?

Thanks,

jm

 

[prov1810]

Is the underlying presupposition of Universalism that God loves all people?

It's the presupposition that God would be cruel to punish people for sin. Justice, in this view, is immoral - so immoral that God HAD to save and He had to save everyone. But God is free and He is holy in everything He does. The fact that God has total, absolute sovereign rights over His property is incomprehensible to most people in the modern world.

 

[stenerson]

"John 8: 23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Millions blatantly admit and go to the grave proudly bragging about not believing in Him.
Either they are not saved or Christ is lying.

 

[hedrick]

A buddy of mine has a work relationship with a "Reformed" Elder who believes in Universalism. It seems the Elder's arguments are having an influence on my friend. Without preparing I mentioned Romans 9, one was loved and other was not. I see how that was simplistic compared to the intellectual leaps made by the Universalist so I thought I should prepare better for our next discussion.

Is the underlying presupposition of Universalism that God loves all people?

Thanks,

jm

I don't recommend that passage for that purpose. A Reformed elder who believes in universalism is probably aware of the range of interpretations of this passage. It is plausibly understood as referring to the election of Israel and not determination of individual fates. I think by far the best passages on individual judgement are Jesus' teachings in the Gospels.

 

[moonbeam]

Is the underlying presupposition of Universalism that God loves all people?

No.

The underlying presupposition is that "God is Light" and also "God is Love"

Therefore…These primary attributes, or descriptors, of God's Person, can allow for judgement and punishment for rejecting Jesus Christ as saviour...But they (Love and Light) can not accommodate everlasting punishment, to be, everlasting punishment.

The Love and the Light will by default, and inexorably so, turn, to a redemptive course, and an equal outcome, for all…without exception.

.

.

 

[hedrick]

Is the underlying presupposition of Universalism that God loves all people?

Only in part. Many also think the normal view represents defeat for God. An eternity with bliss for some of us and torture in the basement isn't a vision everyone considers real victory.

 

[prov1810]

torture in the basement isn't a vision everyone considers real victory.

It seems to me that this is victory for the king in permanently subjecting rebellion to punishment. This is the appropriate thing for Him to do if that is what He does - no one is in a position to evaluate or judge Him. If His goal was salvation for all, hell would be a failure for Him. But if He wanted to display wrath and mercy, then it's victory all around.

 

[moonbeam]

It seems to me that this is victory for the king in permanently subjecting rebellion to punishment. This is the appropriate thing for Him to do if that is what He does - no one is in a position to evaluate or judge Him. If His goal was salvation for all, hell would be a failure for Him. But if He wanted to display wrath and mercy, then it's victory all around.

The Universalist would reply...

But…let us not be too hasty.

Remember…….The underlying presupposition is...that "God is Light" and also "God is Love"

And don't forget…...That we are not evaluating or judging Him - just reminding you (and Him) what He, "is".

.

.

 

[hedrick]

It seems to me that this is victory for the king in permanently subjecting rebellion to punishment. This is the appropriate thing for Him to do if that is what He does - no one is in a position to evaluate or judge Him. If His goal was salvation for all, hell would be a failure for Him. But if He wanted to display wrath and mercy, then it's victory all around.

If this were Islam, I would agree. But not for a God whose idea of how to deal with evil involves the cross.

However I'm not actually a universalist.

 

[prov1810]

If this were Islam, I would agree. But not for a God whose idea of how to deal with evil involves the cross.

No one said more about hell than Jesus. No one excels Him in stern warnings and righteous severity. As for the cross, the post-paschal teaching of the New Testament reaffirms this timeless truth: the potter has power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor, to show His wrath and make His power known. After showing Himself to us in His word, it would be dishonest of Him if He turned out to be a very different sort of being.

 

[moonbeam]

But not for a God whose idea of how to deal with evil involves the cross.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRnpwwqm7-U

 

[moonbeam]

.

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.…(Matt 26:24)


This scripture is all that is needed to nullify the universalist of any orientation.

The logical inference of "it had been good for that man if he had not been born." completely overwhelms any positive outcome the universalist postulates.

.

 

[JM]

I don't recommend that passage for that purpose. A Reformed elder who believes in universalism is probably aware of the range of interpretations of this passage. It is plausibly understood as referring to the election of Israel and not determination of individual fates. I think by far the best passages on individual judgement are Jesus' teachings in the Gospels.

After thinking more about Romans 9 I think it works really well. The whole idea of, "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" and "the vessels of mercy" is difficult to get around even if you make the passage about nations. Like Spurgeon said, "nations are made up of individuals" so there really is no point in claiming Romans 9 is talking about nations.

 

[stenerson]

After thinking more about Romans 9 I think it works really well. The whole idea of, "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" and "the vessels of mercy" is difficult to get around even if you make the passage about nations. Like Spurgeon said, "nations are made up of individuals" so there really is no point in claiming Romans 9 is talking about nations.

Not to mention the fact that God made many promises in the OT that salvation would some day (in the future) come to the nations (in other words not just Israel). This means that God was for the most part not bringing salvation to the reprobate nations in the OT.

 

[JM]

What are the big three passges used by uni's?

 

[ALoveDivine]

In some points the universalists are actually more theologically sound than the arminians. They are more sound in their understanding of the atonement, in that they recognize that it actually removes sins and propitiates divine wrath. They blend this correct understanding of the atonement with the aberrant arminian notion of universal salvific intent.

Universalism is, funny enough, more rationally sound than arminianism, it just has less scriptural support. Ultimately, as we know, the doctrines of Grace cut straight to the truth of this matter.

 

[seeingeyes]

The underlying presupposition is that God will get what He wants.