Universalism

[Soul Searcher]

Now you are being deceptive because that is not the important part of the post you altered:
You are changing scripture to mean some sort of real change in Satan. The verse is about false teachers and how Satan will masquerade as an angel of light, but you altered it to say Satan is transformed.
That is deceptive and an addition to scripture...a dangerous move SS.

No I am not being deceptive but it seems that you are. It literally says Satan is tranformed, you interpret it to mean masquerade which may be correct. Notice the post in question and the words he surrounded in quotes. These are the words that were changed and this is what I was addressing.

The exact text from the KJV is 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The actual word used for transform is
metaschēmatizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to change the figure of, to transform

Yet some bibles do translate it as you suggest,
[ISV]2Co 11:14 And no wonder, since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Satan is often refered to as the deceiver so it is quite logical to assume that the verse means that he pretends to be an angel of light.

That said the church has transformed him into an angel of light with the story of Lucifer and many of his priests stand in the pulpits of our chruches teaching that God is a creature of eternal vengance toward any who do not accept thier teachings.

The bible on the other hand says that he was a liar and a murderer from the begining. The verses they use to claim he was an angel of light are all taken from different parts of the bible, out of context and put together to tell a story that is not there yet they teach it as true. Satan has been transformed already [falsely] and it was the church that did it.

 

[timlamb]

No I am not being deceptive but it seems that you are. It literally says Satan is tranformed, you interpret it to mean masquerade which may be correct. Notice the post in question and the words he surrounded in quotes. These are the words that were changed and this is what I was addressing.

The exact text from the KJV is 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The actual word used for transform is
metaschēmatizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to change the figure of, to transform

Yet some bibles do translate it as you suggest,
[ISV]2Co 11:14 And no wonder, since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Satan is often refered to as the deceiver so it is quite logical to assume that the verse means that he pretends to be an angel of light.

That said the church has transformed him into an angel of light with the story of Lucifer and many of his priests stand in the pulpits of our chruches teaching that God is a creature of eternal vengance toward any who do not accept thier teachings.

The bible on the other hand says that he was a liar and a murderer from the begining. The verses they use to claim he was an angel of light are all taken from different parts of the bible, out of context and put together to tell a story that is not there yet they teach it as true. Satan has been transformed already [falsely] and it was the church that did it.

Satan WAS a light of the heavens until he tried to be God, but that is a different story.

You say "some" bibles translate it different, try "all" others translate it that Satan pretends to disguises or in some way decieves people into believing he is an angel of light. Figures you would use the KJV for that verse. The context it's self says it is about a false portrayal of himself. So it would seem YOU decieve.

 

[timlamb]

Does anyone know what this verse means?

Romans 10
6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

I think, after reading the context, that it says righteous faith does not go looking for the Lord but holds Him in his heart and knows He is with us.But more than that, it is the use of your mouth to confess the Lord and your heart to believe that are true faith.

 

[LJSGM]

I think, after reading the context, that it says righteous faith does not go looking for the Lord but holds Him in his heart and knows He is with us.But more than that, it is the use of your mouth to confess the Lord and your heart to believe that are true faith.

I think you might be right

 

[timlamb]

I think you might be right

Thanks, I don't here that often around here.

 

[Rajni]

Satan is often refered to as the deceiver so it is quite logical to assume that the verse means that he pretends to be an angel of light.

That said the church has transformed him into an angel of light with the story of Lucifer and many of his priests stand in the pulpits of our chruches teaching that God is a creature of eternal vengance toward any who do not accept thier teachings.

The bible on the other hand says that he was a liar and a murderer from the begining. The verses they use to claim he was an angel of light are all taken from different parts of the bible, out of context and put together to tell a story that is not there yet they teach it as true. Satan has been transformed already [falsely] and it was the church that did it.

I agree; the verse often used to prove that Satan started off on the right foot and then fell are not actually speaking of Satan, but rather the King of Babylon:

Isaiah 14:13-14
" You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
​

But if one zooms out to include the beginning of Isaiah 14, it can be seen right away who was being spoken of in that passage:

Verses 3-4: "It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:..."
​

 

[archierieus]

But God IS love. ALL of His characteristics proceed OUT OF that Love. We can't compartmentalize the characteristics of God. His Wrath comes forth from Love, His judgments, His compassion, His justice, His everything... PROCEEDS and are IN, that Love.

Absolutely. What are the two great commandments? 'Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.' What does Jesus say? On these two commandments hang (depend) all the law and the prophets. As Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Dankher puts it is the Greek-English Lexicon, as a door hangs on its hinges, so the entire Old Testament hangs on these two commandments. The principle of love is stated here by Jesus to be the common denominator by which everything else about God may be understood and placed in perspective. Love guides His every action.

Dave

 

[PT Calvinist]

But God IS love. ALL of His characteristics proceed OUT OF that Love. We can't compartmentalize the characteristics of God. His Wrath comes forth from Love, His judgments, His compassion, His justice, His everything... PROCEEDS and are IN, that Love.

This is exactly why Universalism is in the Unorthodox Forum.

I'd like to know how a Universalist interprets this:
"When the Lord your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy." - Deuteronomy 7:2

It's very obvious that God told the Israelites to completly destroy their enemies. How can a God of love and mercy wipe out everyone, even children? What Universalists forget/ignore is that Although God is loving and merciful, He is also just.

 

[Soul Searcher]

What Universalists forget/ignore is that Although God is loving and merciful, He is also just.

It would seem that what many non universalists seem to forget is that to be just is not opposite of love but sometimes is required of love. Do unto others as you would have done unto you is a good concept of being just and also of love. Eternal torment is opposed to both love and justice not to mention mercy.

Many people seem to think that Universalists believe there are no punishments or judgments on anyone, however this is not true most of us believe that these things do exist and that they do so for everyone. The wage of sin is death. All have sinned, all will die, all will be raised, corrected and live. None will suffer eternally. This is a universal type of approach and while it varies a bit from person to person I think it is a fairly good description.

Some of the more common beliefs are far from just, They have some sinners gaining the ultimate reward and others the ultimate penalty even if both are gulity of the same offenses the only difference being based on beliefs, possibly baptism and such depending on the doctorine in question.

A few believe that the destruction is final and only some will live again which is by far more merciful than the more common doctorines of torment and suffering.

I personally believe that each and everyone of us will go through the fires of judgment and each and every one of us will suffer loss and gain reward based on who we are, how we lived and if we know we were doing right or wrong at the time. I also believe that this judgment will be more painful to some than others due basically to a stuborn nature in some and willing nature in others but God is completley capable of changing the heart of each and everyone of us.

The bible states that God will have all men to be saved, It also states that he has sworn by himself that everyknee shall bend and every tongue shall swear. It he is willing and able to save everyone and has sworn and oath how can anyone think that he will not do so?

That's right it's that pesky mistranslated word for eternity that makes people think that the punishment lasts forever. Yet the verses often used to support this claim come from revelation not only is the word not translated propely but it is extrememly clear from the context that it can not be forever.

For example John wrote what he saw and hear. This was apparently in a vision and it lasted who knows how long but most likely several minutes or perhaps a few hours. One thing is certian he did not see anything forever yet this is the word that was choosen for our bibles. When this is taken to literally mean forever it makes it impossible to understand the message and causes numerous contradictions with other parts of the bible as well as in revelation itself.

If we consider that this word does not mean any definite period of time [certianly not eternity] and place it in the proper context the contradictions begin to disappear and we can then begin to see the "Good News" rather than the bad.

 

[Rajni]

This is exactly why Universalism is in the Unorthodox Forum.

I'd like to know how a Universalist interprets this:
"When the Lord your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy." - Deuteronomy 7:2

It's very obvious that God told the Israelites to completly destroy their enemies. How can a God of love and mercy wipe out everyone, even children? What Universalists forget/ignore is that Although God is loving and merciful, He is also just.

Partialists read endlessness into "completely destroy". A nation that is destroyed as a nation does not mean "each individual in that nation went to hell forever."

God did away with Sodom too, and then restored it.

Ezekiel 16:49-55

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous. However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.
​

His punishments have restoration as the goal, not simply revenge for it's own sake. The latter is man's way of doing things; God's ways are higher than our ways.


..

 

[PT Calvinist]

It would seem that what many non universalists seem to forget is that to be just is not opposite of love but sometimes is required of love. Do unto others as you would have done unto you is a good concept of being just and also of love. Eternal torment is opposed to both love and justice not to mention mercy.

Many people seem to think that Universalists believe there are no punishments or judgments on anyone, however this is not true most of us believe that these things do exist and that they do so for everyone. The wage of sin is death. All have sinned, all will die, all will be raised, corrected and live. None will suffer eternally. This is a universal type of approach and while it varies a bit from person to person I think it is a fairly good description.

Some of the more common beliefs are far from just, They have some sinners gaining the ultimate reward and others the ultimate penalty even if both are gulity of the same offenses the only difference being based on beliefs, possibly baptism and such depending on the doctorine in question.

A few believe that the destruction is final and only some will live again which is by far more merciful than the more common doctorines of torment and suffering.

I personally believe that each and everyone of us will go through the fires of judgment and each and every one of us will suffer loss and gain reward based on who we are, how we lived and if we know we were doing right or wrong at the time. I also believe that this judgment will be more painful to some than others due basically to a stuborn nature in some and willing nature in others but God is completley capable of changing the heart of each and everyone of us.

The bible states that God will have all men to be saved, It also states that he has sworn by himself that everyknee shall bend and every tongue shall swear. It he is willing and able to save everyone and has sworn and oath how can anyone think that he will not do so?

That's right it's that pesky mistranslated word for eternity that makes people think that the punishment lasts forever. Yet the verses often used to support this claim come from revelation not only is the word not translated propely but it is extrememly clear from the context that it can not be forever.

For example John wrote what he saw and hear. This was apparently in a vision and it lasted who knows how long but most likely several minutes or perhaps a few hours. One thing is certian he did not see anything forever yet this is the word that was choosen for our bibles. When this is taken to literally mean forever it makes it impossible to understand the message and causes numerous contradictions with other parts of the bible as well as in revelation itself.

If we consider that this word does not mean any definite period of time [certianly not eternity] and place it in the proper context the contradictions begin to disappear and we can then begin to see the "Good News" rather than the bad.

I've heard it all brother... But I believe the problem is that Universalists won't accept that "aionion" , which means "eternal", is to be taken as it is in the Damnation scriptures as well as how eternal Jesus is.

As someone pointed out earlier:

The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.

1. John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
2. John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
3. Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
4. Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
5. Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
6. Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
7. Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
8. 1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
9. 1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
10. 1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."

The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation

1. Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
2. Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
3. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
4. Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
5. Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
6. Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
7. 2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
8. Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."

It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I've heard it all brother... But I believe the problem is that Universalists won't accept that "aionion" , which means "eternal", is to be taken as it is in the Damnation scriptures as well as how eternal Jesus is.

As someone pointed out earlier:

As someone else pointed out earlier Is a tall man the same height as a tall building?

 

[PT Calvinist]

As someone else pointed out earlier Is a tall man the same height as a tall building?

That's where context comes in buddy.

 

[LightSeaker]

This is exactly why Universalism is in the Unorthodox Forum.

I'd like to know how a Universalist interprets this:
"When the Lord your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy." - Deuteronomy 7:2

It's very obvious that God told the Israelites to completly destroy their enemies. How can a God of love and mercy wipe out everyone, even children? What Universalists forget/ignore is that Although God is loving and merciful, He is also just.

The image your presenting seems to be more of a God who is dysfunctional than he is just. And that's the part that in life I've never seen or experienced of God. What I have seen and experienced is a God whose reach is not bounded by beliefs or dogma. It's a God who is Love. Period!


.

 

[Tavita]

This is exactly why Universalism is in the Unorthodox Forum.

I'd like to know how a Universalist interprets this:
"When the Lord your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy." - Deuteronomy 7:2

It's very obvious that God told the Israelites to completly destroy their enemies. How can a God of love and mercy wipe out everyone, even children? What Universalists forget/ignore is that Although God is loving and merciful, He is also just.

I learned what that meant long before becoming a Uni, mate.

It means that the entire Old Testament was written for OUR benefit.

Rom 15:4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

It means that one aspect of the entire OT was to teach us the difference between the flesh and the Spirit. God dealt with the flesh by the Law to teach us that we cannot obey God by walking in the flesh.

The judgments that people received in the OT were a fleshly judgment. If they died, they died in the flesh. (God's judgment on the flesh).

As a Uni... we still believe in the terrible judgments of God. We still believe He is a strict and severe Judge... just that it's not never ending.

 

[Soul Searcher]

That's where context comes in buddy.

Like the context in revelation where John is describing what he saw that could not possibly have been forever yet it fits the ET doctorines so it is said to mean exactly that even though it clearly does not.

How long do you think John saw the smoke rise? 5 minutes? 10? an hour? more? Forever and ever? Think about it.

 

[heavensprings]

That's where context comes in buddy.

You're right about that!

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Augustine raised the argument that since [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]aionios [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]aionios [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]is determined by the subject to which it refers.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]For example, when [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]aionios [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]aionios [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether. Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]aion [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel or the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages.[/FONT]

 

[timlamb]

You're right about that!

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Augustine raised the argument that since [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]aionios [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]aionios [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]is determined by the subject to which it refers. [/FONT]



[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]For example, when [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]aionios [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]aionios [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether. Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. [/FONT]



[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]aion [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel or the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages.[/FONT]

So aionios is relative. You have no reason to believe eternal punishment is any different than eternal life. The context determines that they both be the same length of time.
Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
It is like ballancing scales, the length of time must be equal for this statement to make any sense.

You guys dig, one verse at a time, maybe two in the same chapter.

Every one of you uni's take on this subject from a different perspective, there is no uniformity to your beliefe accept you just don't want the truth to be so. Half of the guys arguing for universal salvation don't believe the bible, but they'll jump on your band wagong when you quote scripture with that special uni twist. You guys will partner up with people who don't believe in scripture or a God who spoke it. You don't care if a person believes in Jesus or not if they support your view of no eternal hell they are your brother. We, if we are brothers in Christ Jesus, should be supporting eachother in bringing others to salvation through faith. Instead, you are worried about the guy who thinks hell is real and eternal, not the guy who is going there.

If just one of you bible believing "Christian Universalists" would ever step up to the plate and show concern about the salvation of one of your universalist partners who doesn't believe in Jesus for salvation, THAT person I might take seriously, or at least see them as one who is concerned about the Gospel message. I might see a brother or sister in the one who is more worried about saving a soul than arguing the length of the punishment they will get.

Again, I'm tired. All any of us who claim the blood of Christ should be worried about is serving the Living, Loving, Eternal God, and bringing more souls into the kingdom.

Blessings on my brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus,
AMEN,
Shalom

 

[heavensprings]

So aionios is relative. You have no reason to believe eternal punishment is any different than eternal life. The context determines that they both be the same length of time.
Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
It is like ballancing scales, the length of time must be equal for this statement to make any sense.

You guys dig, one verse at a time, maybe two in the same chapter.

Every one of you uni's take on this subject from a different perspective, there is no uniformity to your beliefe accept you just don't want the truth to be so. Half of the guys arguing for universal salvation don't believe the bible, but they'll jump on your band wagong when you quote scripture with that special uni twist. You guys will partner up with people who don't believe in scripture or a God who spoke it. You don't care if a person believes in Jesus or not if they support your view of no eternal hell they are your brother. We, if we are brothers in Christ Jesus, should be supporting eachother in bringing others to salvation through faith. Instead, you are worried about the guy who thinks hell is real and eternal, not the guy who is going there.

If just one of you bible believing "Christian Universalists" would ever step up to the plate and show concern about the salvation of one of your universalist partners who doesn't believe in Jesus for salvation, THAT person I might take seriously, or at least see them as one who is concerned about the Gospel message. I might see a brother or sister in the one who is more worried about saving a soul than arguing the length of the punishment they will get.

Again, I'm tired. All any of us who claim the blood of Christ should be worried about is serving the Living, Loving, Eternal God, and bringing more souls into the kingdom.

Blessings on my brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus,
AMEN,
Shalom

You seem to think that we think the doctrine of universal salvation is the whole of the gospel. It's just one part. All of us come from differing denominational backgrounds and have learned the scriptures in differing ways. We don't see eye to eye on everything concerning UR, just as the rest of the Church as a whole doesn't see everything concerning doctrine eye to eye. These discussions are enjoyable, and the only reason I for one post in these threads is to get people thinking. I don't believe we can convert anyone to what we believe, that's God's job. We just want to plant some seeds.

BTW.. that description of aionios is what quite a few theologians believe.. including Sir William Barclay, a leading theologian and Greek scholar.

And you're right: All any of us who claim the blood of Christ should be worried about is serving the Living, Loving, Eternal God, and bringing more souls into the kingdom.

Peace

I think I've had enough too.

 

[Soul Searcher]

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
It is like ballancing scales, the length of time must be equal for this statement to make any sense.

So because the word is used twice in the same sentence it must have the same duration? Sorry I do not see it that way any more than I would infer that equal height from the following. "There once was a tall man atop a tall building atop a tall mountian."

btw none of us are righteous, not one so the latter part is kind of moot anyway

There is however another verse that does do the sort of comparrision that you infer from the verse above but it is often argued to mean something else. That verse being ....
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It is clear here that the all in Christ are the same all that is in Adam but this along with all the others verses which indicate UR is rejected by those who promote eternal suffering.

BTW I do not know any Uni's who do not believe in Jesus so it would be hard for me to convince one of them. I will however respond when I see people attacking our beliefs and spreading fear. We are to love our fellow man. Love casts out fear, it does not promote it.