Universalism

[timlamb]

You said there will be no more suffering, but if there is eternal suffering then this is not a true statement as there will always be suffering. I think what you mean is that you will not suffer so it is all good never mind the billions who you believe won't be so lucky.

I still am wondering how you get that they will be in a different place as well seeing as how the bible states that the torment occurs in the presence of the lamb and the holy angels. Is it only the unsaved that spend time with God, the Lamb the Holy angels while certian believers are given a quiet little corner somewhere? Or is it just that your ideas don't gell with what is written?

You claim to know better than me and quote (or half quote) scripture to prove me wrong. It really gives one the impression you are wasting their time arguing frivolous points that you already know the answer to.

But, that said, you really need to start paying attention to who the scripture is addressing and the timeframe.

Revelation 14:9-11 (New American Standard Bible)


Doom for Worshipers of the Beast

9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Those who take the mark are judged at the second comming:

19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Doom of the Beast and False Prophet

20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

And I already know you are going to write off the scripture I quoted because it is the Revelation, even though you quoted from it to disprove me.

Beside, It is only said of the Father that He cannot look upon sinful man.

Anyway, when you quote that the Holy Angels and Jesus will look upon them you should understand who "them" are, it is a specific group who chose to side with the Beast.

Now look at to whom Jesus promises there will be no more suffering:


3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

This message is for the "overcomers", those who chose to become the children of God and chose life. For the rest there will still be whatever comes with the Lake of Fire.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sure, but if all the creatures would actually do as they say then there would be no need for the lamb to open the scroll and pour the wrath, don't you think?

The Scriptures must be fullfilled

Matthew 24:37 For as even in the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man

1 Corin 15:23 Each yet in the own rank, a firstfruit Christ, thereafter the ones of the Christ in the parousia <3952> of Him
24 thereafter the End/teloV <5056>, whenever He may be giving up the Kingdom to the God and Father, when He shall be nullifying/katarghsh <2673> (5661) every sovereignty/Chief and every authority and power.

 

[Soul Searcher]

2 Cor 11:13-15
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

People automatically assume this is a bad thing but if they are transformed then they have some good actions as well do they not. Judgment does not always have to be bad. One big problem with the common Christian doctorines is they teach that there are 2 types of people Type A suffers no punishment, gets wonderous rewards and lives forever in peace and happiness. Type B suffers the most horrible punishment imagionable, Gets no rewards and lives forever in torments without any chance of ever seeing mercy.

The difference between the 2? What they believe about the unseen before they see it. I would not be surprised in the least if the weeping and gnashing of teeth comes from group A when they realize that they too must be purged in the lake and that those who they were so sure would suffer endlessly are right beside them both in the lake and beyond

 

[Hentenza]

Your not reading the whole thing and as such your taking the verse out of context. True, 2 Co 11:14 is about false apostles. But it's about how even false apostles will transform into True Apostles of Christ. And in the same way...so will Satan ALSO be transformed into an Angel of Light.

.

No. It is about how false apostles can transform themselves to appear as true apostles therefore masquerading as servants of righteousness. They can fool others easily. Read verse 15.

 

[Soul Searcher]

No. It is about how false apostles can transform themselves to appear as true apostles therefore masquerading as servants of righteousness. They can fool others easily. Read verse 15.

We have many of those today preaching doctorines of hell fire and eternal wrath while robbing blind those who are foolish enough to give to thier cause.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No. It is about how false apostles can transform themselves to appear as true apostles therefore masquerading as servants of righteousness. They can fool others easily. Read verse 15.

Revelation 2:2 I have seen the works of thee, and the labour of thee, and the endurance of thee, and that not thou are able to bear evils, and thou test/try the ones saying themselves apostles/apostolouV <652 are and not they are, and thou found them false/yeudeiV <5571>,

 

[timlamb]

Originally Posted by LightSeaker

In 2 Corinthians 11:14… with the way the word "marvel" is used by Paul, it's almost like he is saying, "It's no big surprise" that even Satan will be transformed into an angel of light


​

It's NOTHING like saying that!

 

[Hentenza]

People automatically assume this is a bad thing but if they are transformed then they have some good actions as well do they not. Judgment does not always have to be bad. One big problem with the common Christian doctorines is they teach that there are 2 types of people Type A suffers no punishment, gets wonderous rewards and lives forever in peace and happiness. Type B suffers the most horrible punishment imagionable, Gets no rewards and lives forever in torments without any chance of ever seeing mercy.

The difference between the 2? What they believe about the unseen before they see it. I would not be surprised in the least if the weeping and gnashing of teeth comes from group A when they realize that they too must be purged in the lake and that those who they were so sure would suffer endlessly are right beside them both in the lake and beyond

Some see but still do not believe.

John 6:36
36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

 

[Hentenza]

Revelation 2:2 I have seen the works of thee, and the labour of thee, and the endurance of thee, and that not thou are able to bear evils, and thou test/try the ones saying themselves apostles/apostolouV <652 are and not they are, and thou found them false/yeudeiV <5571>,

Thanks bro!!!!!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some see but still do not believe.

John 6:36
36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

I like the questions the Apostles asked in John 14, which is my favorite book in the NT

http://www.christianforums.com/t7391061/#post52559491

John 145: Thomas is saying to Him "Lord! not we are aware the-where Thou are going away, and how are able the way being aware?".

8: Phillip is saying to Him "Lord! show! to us the Father and is being sufficient to us".

22:Judas, [not the Iscarot] is saying to Him "Lord, what has become that to us Thou are being about to be showing Thyself and not to the world".

 

[red77]

Red, you are becomming increasingly rude and I will not respond to you any more. You flame me and end up reporting me for rudeness

Why do you find temporary torture even for years acceptable if torture is so disturbing to you? If it is wrong it is wrong for a minute or an eternity.

The scripture says "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" right? It doesn't say ALL will be doing those actions. I say that merely to point out that there will be different degrees of punishment as scripture points out.

You don't believe man would sin more without the threat of eternal punishment. You believe man will all one day turn gratefully to Jesus. You know nothing about human nature. We all push the law, driving three miles over the speed limit or "fudging" on our taxes, we all do something to the limits of the law. God's perfect law has strict limits and going beyond them makes us guilty. The distance from the best and worst man is barely a crack in the sidewalk. We are all capable of being bad. But the distance between, by comparison would be the Pacific Ocean, it is a span no man can reach. So you cannot compare what man thinks is acceptable punishment to what God knows we diserve.

We all diserve death, none are worthy. But you seem to feel ALL are worthy and no JUST loving God would leave anyone out. You have the picture completely turned around. It isn't that God comdemns the unfortunate, as you see it. It is that Jesus saves the few who will listen and see and hear and obey.

Without Jesus we ALL get the Lake of Fire, because we ALL diserve it.

I would be willing to bet there are more uni's who care more about making friends than saving souls, than there are Eternal Damnation believers who make light of the souls that will die in hell. I can hear someone crying because they were told they need forgiveness to stay our of hell, and the uni says: "Oh, don't worry sweetheart, bless your heart, nobody goes to hell!".

BELIEF IN UNIVERSAL SALVATION WILL LEAD MANY TO ETERNAL DAMNATION, BECAUSE THEY WILL NEVER REPENT, AND IN HELL IT IS TOO LATE!!!

Bye for now Red, LS, SS, I'm tired. I started at the beginning of this thread and am just tired of the rudeness from both sides. I got mad and said some things and I got my warnings for it because you guys aren't bashful about reporting.

I've quoted alot of scripture to you guys, I just wish you believed it.

Tim, as you already know by now I've neither flamed you or reported you both in public and private. I hope you can accept that. If you are still responding then I'll answer your post.

I don't believe any corrective measures would involve torture, so your point is moot in that regard. I do believe that torture is immoral and wrong.

Even if you believe that there are different measures of punishment then in eternity all manner of inescapable suffering without release amounts to torture. So are you still going to use the 'torture' argument as a line of defence?

You say I know nothing about human nature? All you can focus on is the negative side of it. As much as one may fudge their taxes someone else is being kind to a stranger. It's you who knows little if this is your yardstick to judge all people as being so evil to deserve eternal torment. Human nature often balks at cruelty and suffering, be it temporal or otherwise. do you see anything positive in people such as compassion and empathy etc?

I don't have the picture 'turned around'. Those who 'see, hear and obey' should have compassion and empathy for the frail beings that haven't found the same as them instead of justifying their suffering for being 'enemies of God' or some such.

If you take this as 'flaming' then I'm sorry. I call it debate. Your comments about uni's looking more to make friends isn't even worth addressing, it's beneath you.

Regards

Red

 

[threedog]

I am unsure how this relates to my questioning that the atheist icon is the one that demonstrates intelligence.

It can also be intelligent to believe in a non personal God...based on the strong evidence of God's lack of concrete intervention to protect the innocent from the free-will of evil men. Therefore, the athieist icon does not reflect my view. I am still holding out that God exist, but I doubt it is the Christian God as so many believe. So powerless to make things better on earth. The ultimate purpose of Life and death are a mystery and so is God.

threedog

 

[EyezOFire]

Wow... talk about a thread that grows quickly.. I've lost track of the conversation, because there seem to be several going on at one time. It gets so confusion because you have some talking about the lake of fire, satan, salvation, and revelation. All I can say really is hopefully CF will let Christian Universalists have their own little catagory, so people can discuss certain aspects pertaining to the various aspects of Universalism in much easier to read threads... This would be better than a 170+ page thread..... hint hint...... wink wink... That way the big theological riot that's going on can be broken up into nice easy to read skirmishes.... Just my thoughts...

 

[Soul Searcher]

Some see but still do not believe.

John 6:36
36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

But that will not always be the case. Remember the passage from the OT where God swears on his very being that every knee shall bend and every tongue shall swear. This is repeated at least twice more in the new testament once in reference to acknowledging Jesus. Then of course we see in revelation that every creature shall praise him. None of these verses seem to leave any room for exception and there are many others as well. The fact is that as soon as we realize that the smoke does not go up literally forever and ever, that the torment does not last literally forever and ever that the fires of judgment are not literal at all then we can start to come to an understanding and realize that judgment does not step on UR beliefs in the slighest, Justice and mercy however destroys doctorines of eternal suffering.

 

[timlamb]

Tim, as you already know by now I've neither flamed you or reported you both in public and private. I hope you can accept that. If you are still responding then I'll answer your post.

I don't believe any corrective measures would involve torture, so your point is moot in that regard. I do believe that torture is immoral and wrong.

Even if you believe that there are different measures of punishment then in eternity all manner of inescapable suffering without release amounts to torture. So are you still going to use the 'torture' argument as a line of defence?

You say I know nothing about human nature? All you can focus on is the negative side of it. As much as one may fudge their taxes someone else is being kind to a stranger. It's you who knows little if this is your yardstick to judge all people as being so evil to deserve eternal torment. Human nature often balks at cruelty and suffering, be it temporal or otherwise. do you see anything positive in people such as compassion and empathy etc?

I don't have the picture 'turned around'. Those who 'see, hear and obey' should have compassion and empathy for the frail beings that haven't found the same as them instead of justifying their suffering for being 'enemies of God' or some such.

If you take this as 'flaming' then I'm sorry. I call it debate. Your comments about uni's looking more to make friends isn't even worth addressing, it's beneath you.

Regards

Red

This is why this is a waste of time (at least one reason). it always comes down to, "You are this"..."No I'm not! You are this!"..."See, I told you you were that, you just proved it"...and on it goes.

You challenge me on death and hell and punishment for sin and then call me negitive. I'm just responding to the true nature of sin and answering you. I rejoice every day (I try to) that Jesus died for my sins and I have Hope in Him. My life is all about the Lord and spreading the good news and enjoying the experience of learning more about God every day. I've been out of work for nine months and things are sort of rough but I have what I need.

But, I enjoy the debate but it is getting tiresome. You use words that insult and creat bad will, I've done it too, but I tire of defending myself.

I poked my head in just to see what was going on and tried to offer a word to three dog but even he called me shallow. Even in attempts to be kind they question my intelligence.

I explained myself with a bunch of scripture and it does no good, so I will try again to exit. Remember the great commission, God forth and spread the Gospel. People need Jesus because the IS a Lake of Fire.

 

[red77]

This is why this is a waste of time (at least one reason). it always comes down to, "You are this"..."No I'm not! You are this!"..."See, I told you you were that, you just proved it"...and on it goes.

You challenge me on death and hell and punishment for sin and then call me negitive. I'm just responding to the true nature of sin and answering you. I rejoice every day (I try to) that Jesus died for my sins and I have Hope in Him. My life is all about the Lord and spreading the good news and enjoying the experience of learning more about God every day. I've been out of work for nine months and things are sort of rough but I have what I need.

But, I enjoy the debate but it is getting tiresome. You use words that insult and creat bad will, I've done it too, but I tire of defending myself.

I poked my head in just to see what was going on and tried to offer a word to three dog but even he called me shallow. Even in attempts to be kind they question my intelligence.

I explained myself with a bunch of scripture and it does no good, so I will try again to exit. Remember the great commission, God forth and spread the Gospel. People need Jesus because the IS a Lake of Fire.

Tim, I don't use words that insult. I don't flame and I don't report. I will be debating passionately and I will give no leeway if I see a flaw in your position. But that is not personal towards you. You have to see the difference if there is any point to this. I bear no ill will towards you or anyone else in opposition. People have explained their positon on this thread with scripture and yet you don't listen in return, so what then...?
It's up to you if you leave.

EDIT: I'm sorry you've been out of work. Things have been rough here too as the same has happened to myself (and many others I wager) since the 'credit crunch'. It's not pleasant all round at the moment and hope is something to be valued at times like these

 

[Tavita]

Well, the error of the "love only" approach to God is that God doesn't operate only on love. Love is only one of God's many characteristics, and all of them have to be satisfied, not just love. The "love only" approach denies the totality of who God is to focus on the one thing we think is important.

Heck, I'd love it if love was the only thing that mattered. Nobody wants to think that they, or any of their loved ones, or even their enemies for that matter, will end up in a place that isn't heaven, but when I experience the glory and majesty and power, as well as the love, of God, and I read the Bible, I have to understand that my desire in the matter is null and void, that it is God's will that will be accomplished. To just brush aside those portions of the Bible that speak to God's holiness and God's righteousness to focus on love is a sign that it is our desires we are addressing, and not God's desires, needs and will.

But God IS love. ALL of His characteristics proceed OUT OF that Love. We can't compartmentalize the characteristics of God. His Wrath comes forth from Love, His judgments, His compassion, His justice, His everything... PROCEEDS and are IN, that Love.

 

[Soul Searcher]

It's NOTHING like saying that!

Actually yes it is the term Marvel and the phrase "it's no big surprise" are interchangable in this context.

 

[timlamb]

Actually yes it is the term Marvel and the phrase "it's no big surprise" are interchangable in this context.

Now you are being deceptive because that is not the important part of the post you altered:

Originally Posted by LightSeaker

In 2 Corinthians 11:14… with the way the word "marvel" is used by Paul, it's almost like he is saying, "It's no big surprise" that even Satan will be transformed into an angel of light
​

You are changing scripture to mean some sort of real change in Satan. The verse is about false teachers and how Satan will masquerade as an angel of light, but you altered it to say Satan is transformed.
That is deceptive and an addition to scripture...a dangerous move SS.

 

[LJSGM]

Does anyone know what this verse means?

Romans 10
6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).